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*shrug* A first-world-problems sort of hell, maybe. None of us have to do this.
Why agent wouldn't respond after asking for a full
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It's actually more like Purgatory. You know, float around and around and wait. And wait. Then wait some more. Then nudge the attendant archangels about how much longer it will be. Then, for a change of pace, wait.
Hell, on the other hand, has cookies. So what if they have habanero-sriracha chips instead of chocolate? You get used to it.
Hell, on the other hand, has cookies. So what if they have habanero-sriracha chips instead of chocolate? You get used to it.
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And maybe it's the promise of a Heaven that keeps us going?
For me, it's more like a rumor, but I am a stupid optimist.
For me, it's more like a rumor, but I am a stupid optimist.
But, when you're subbing, literally every single sub story seems to be, 'I wrote my book and, then, in 24 hours, I had 6 agents begging to represent me in my inbox. 2 weeks later, I had a two-book deal from one of the Big Five!'
It doesn't even seem like an exaggeration, either.
(Getting no response on fulls is so upsetting. I've never had a form on a full yet - though I have had the generic 'couldn't connect with the characters', which could just as easily be a form. Such is life, but I think it's incredibly rude to never respond. So much worse than just sending the boilerplate. You got too busy and couldn't be bothered to read it? Fine. You really hated it? No problem. Buuuuut I think to not even send a form is really bad practice. I also hate no-response-means-no, because I'm an eternal spam-filter optimist, but that's different because I understand that they have thousands of queries every week, on top of clients and requested MSs. It's not practical for many of them to respond.
Like, my two top choice agents had fulls from me in January and March of last year and, though both responded to nudges in autumn, I've still not heard back from my other tentative ones. I probably won't. I'm also considering whether I'd even query them for my next project. I mean, obviously I WILL, because they have amazing sale records and I'm weak and hopeful as all hell, but I did lose respect for them. Boilerplate/very short rejections on fulls sting, but to drop off the map and not respond entirely is where it moves, to me, from being hurtful but 'oh well' to professional courtesy.
Now I think perhaps I sound psycho. So let's move onto the subject on which I can be a little more rational, and this thread has somewhat moved into.
I am always super-careful with nudging, and I always would be. I was about to write that it's somewhat unfair that there's such a power imbalance in publishing, when, really, the agent/author relationship is entirely two-way and symbiotic. I have friends who have been really mistreated even by star agents who rep their work. So sometimes I feel sad for them that there's no acceptable channel for them to say, 'this person shit on me,' and that the author's endless quote for their previous agent(s) always has to be, 'We have endless respect for each other and I love them and you should query them!'
But, at the same time, there have to be professional boundaries. It sounds like the simplest advice in the world but it has really shocked me, since I got into trying to break into publishing, how many authors were just...crazies who couldn't respect the basic principle of, 'would you talk to people you actually knew like this? Would you talk to potential employers/employees/however you want to see your agent?' Many agents have tweeted regularly and recently about being sent the same query three times in one day, being subjected to horrible abusive rants, being belittled and threatened. I think because, so much of writing is about you alone, there are just too many authors who believe that they are 'entitled' to be published because 'it's their dream.' And that gives them, in their minds, carte blanche to spew vitriol at anyone who says no. If that's just what gets tweeted/spoken about, can you believe how frequent that is? You hopefully wouldn't treat an office job like that, in the same way that you wouldn't get on the phone and start yelling at your business partner if they didn't reply - people, please! So, agents, to me, have the right to behave as they wish because, just like I wouldn't want my agent to be constantly haranguing me about my new book and threatening to withdraw rep, it's a decision that they need to make. If they were actually abusive to the author, that'd be a whole other matter.
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Yeah, I'm just respectful to people in general, whether they can do me some good or not--it's a way of behavior that I can live with from myself. It does get difficult to maintain, in any context, when you feel that the same consideration isn't reciprocated. No word at all on a full, I don't think that's respectful, but what can you do about it? I'm certainly not going to email a nasty nudge or what have you. Again, more because it doesn't feel good to me. I have no basis for this belief, but sometimes I have a hunch that some of these agents are playing the numbers game on wholes. Meaning, maybe requesting more than they could possibly handle if all the novels turned out to be worthy. Just a feeling I have, but I'm probably wrong.
You don't sound psycho at all--and even if you did, what better place to vent than a writing board. We're all in this together.
There is a power imbalance. When you're starting out--I've only written two novels to date--you obviously need a "good" agent more than at first blush anyway, they need you. I guess we all hope to get to where we are selling a lot of books and everyone who gets a taste of that will love us and the relationship gets to be more equitable. Hope it happens for you.
ETA: I should qualify anything I say on this is more due to what I've seen in business in general. My experience is very limited in the publishing world.
You don't sound psycho at all--and even if you did, what better place to vent than a writing board. We're all in this together.
There is a power imbalance. When you're starting out--I've only written two novels to date--you obviously need a "good" agent more than at first blush anyway, they need you. I guess we all hope to get to where we are selling a lot of books and everyone who gets a taste of that will love us and the relationship gets to be more equitable. Hope it happens for you.
ETA: I should qualify anything I say on this is more due to what I've seen in business in general. My experience is very limited in the publishing world.
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This entire thread is thoroughly discouraging. Spent ages waiting for an agent to respond - they respond, requesting a full manuscript, and then it's possible to never heard from them again? I'd think at that point you're guaranteed at least a rejection email.
Eh. It's discouraging, to be sure, but not that different from other arm's-length business relations. Until you sign with them, you're not a client, and you're not entitled to the same courtesy as a client. Example: The year after I graduated from law school, the bottom dropped out of the legal market. I sent out hundreds of applications all over the country. I got three interviews, and one offer. The other two places didn't contact me with a rejection. I just learned that they'd hired someone else. And I was lucky. I knew plenty of people with just as good grades, if not better, who couldn't get jobs at all. The way publishing works, and given how busy agents are, I'd expect much the same, if not worse, responses from querying. A query is like a job application, and a request is like an interview, in my mind. I wouldn't really expect to hear back unless they're interested. You just need one to say yes. Why obsess over the nos?
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Probably, but it seems hot property often entices several agents at once. There are so many stories that go like, hey I sent out this ms and no one really wanted it, then I sent out that ms and maybe one agent sorta read the full... and then I sent out the winner and suddenly I was ears deep in agents wanting it. So if I were an agent who fell in love with a ms I would have assumed it was in demand... unless it was a case of a hard-to-market novel which is also too awesome to miss.
I agree with Mr Flibble though--it's a little like romance. Sure you can demand attention but doing so will not make the other person fall in love with you. The only thing it can do is drive them away because they find you tiresome/boring/uncomfortable to deal with. On the other hand, if such a small thing can make them give up on you that fast, you two were obviously never destined for an epic union anyway. So that's also telling.
This is a bit off topic but I also have a little story about rejections.
1. query + 5 pages
"Please send me the first 3 chapters ASAP, I loved your 5 pages, they were so fast-paced and exciting."
2. a few days later
"You know I liked your chapters but they were kind of too fast-paced and exciting."
That was a pretty well-known agent, by the way. I wish I could read some of her other rejection letters because yeah.
It should never happen. When an agent requests a full, that agent is duty bound to give you a response, one way or the other, and good agents do. It may take more time than planned, but if the agent actually says two or three weeks, and it's been two months, it's time to put some pressure on.
I let submissions sit as long as an editor needs, even if it's two years. Agents are a different story. Agents are busy people, but when an actually tells you something, that agent should stick to it. Good agents, good people, don't say things that aren't going to happen.
If pressure doesn't work, then e-mail the agent and withdraw the manuscript. Doing this often gets an answer immediately.
I let submissions sit as long as an editor needs, even if it's two years. Agents are a different story. Agents are busy people, but when an actually tells you something, that agent should stick to it. Good agents, good people, don't say things that aren't going to happen.
If pressure doesn't work, then e-mail the agent and withdraw the manuscript. Doing this often gets an answer immediately.
I'm not at the point where I'm ready to start querying agents yet, but I have been out of work for a little while, and it's taught me a thing or two about job applications which I think also applies here.
NEVER assume they're going to get back to you. Because 9 times out of 10? They won't. Apply and move on to the next application.
NEVER assume they're going to get back to you. Because 9 times out of 10? They won't. Apply and move on to the next application.
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I read so many talking about how busy agents are. Are there so many submissions and so few agents?
As far as rejections go, I have learnt that "no" does not necessarily mean a bad thing. It just means a perfect match has not yet met. After I was laid off from my last job, I couldn't count how many applications I sent out. Finally, one showed interest and eventually offered me the job. On the day when I received the offer, I got a call from a head hunter - for a company I did not apply for. I had a series of grueling interviews with them on that day (four hours), got the offer immediately afterward, for far better salary and more interesting responsibilities than any others. It turned out to be a good thing that others said no to me. Seriously.
As far as rejections go, I have learnt that "no" does not necessarily mean a bad thing. It just means a perfect match has not yet met. After I was laid off from my last job, I couldn't count how many applications I sent out. Finally, one showed interest and eventually offered me the job. On the day when I received the offer, I got a call from a head hunter - for a company I did not apply for. I had a series of grueling interviews with them on that day (four hours), got the offer immediately afterward, for far better salary and more interesting responsibilities than any others. It turned out to be a good thing that others said no to me. Seriously.
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Effing sunshine and dry weather. I'm trying to start a garden, and we need clouds and rain, which we normally get. But this year? Noooooooooooooooooooo. It's like living in the Atacama.
Which is a lot like my writing experience.
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That's almost certainly part of it...but it's probably even more that the main job of an agent isn't the slush pile, submissions, etc. It's the clients they already have.
Plus, it's hardly "one manuscript, one query, one submitted full, one agent" in like, 99.99% of the cases. First hit homeruns are pretty rare, as to say. One manuscript can easily put queries in a few dozen agents' inboxes, partials in a dozen, fulls in half a dozen...
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I'd say it fits the query situation better. When there is a full being requested, there is a certain level of communication already, a certain display of interest.
I still have proposals (I'm non-fic, so a proposal to me is what a full is for you) out, and I stopped querying nearly a year ago now (I am agented and recently signed a publishing contract). Even after nudges, I didn't get responses. Seems to be occurring more frequently as time passes.
Agents are hugely busy representing the clients they already have. Reading submissions is something that gets done in the few spaces between. It is very low-priority compared to selling rights and negotiating contracts for their exisiting clients because those exisiting clients earn the agent her income.
When submissions were made by post, the ranting and abuse was generally made by post too, so it was a relatively indirect thing, and it took time, and because one has to make quite a big effort to write a rude letter, stick it in an envelope, get a stamp, and put it in the post box. It was never nice receiving those abusive letters; and twenty years ago, I ended up with a stalker who objected to my rejecting his entirely awful and inappropriate submission. It was not nice.
Since the internet came along, the number of submissions has increased; and sadly, the number and proportion of nasty communications has also increased. Most agents I know now have extensive lists of aspiring authors who have berated and threatened them. A couple of agencies I know regularly have to forward communications to the police, because they know the writers concerned represent a real threat to them. It's often because of the increased volume of submissions, and the increased number of threats they receive, that editors and agents have moved from giving feedback where they could, and writing encouraging rejections, to sending out only form rejections or even not responding at all to submissions they are not taking any further. We have learned that for a minority of writers, any communication which isn't "this is the best book ever and of course I'm going to represent you!" will lead to abuse and threats, and it's just too dangerous to invite that any more.
It means that the good writers, the nice ones, have to put up with "no response means no thanks", which is not good. No one likes it, not writers, not agents, not editors. But until someone comes up with a better way to avoid those threats, it's the best solution we've got.
It may not seem fair to the second category of authors, who follow rules and behave themselves. But the 'no response' situation has evolved for a reason.
I look at it as a litmus test for agent professionalism. When I was still querying agents, I sent out 77 queries for one book, got requests for two or three partials, and no fulls (a flawed book, to begin with).
Two of the partial requesters didn't respond within six months. I nudged. One agent fired back with 'Sorry I lost track of you!' and initiated a round of incredibly useful second reads. She ended up not wanting the book for good reasons, but her feedback was great.
The second agent never responded. I took them off my query list, and moved on.
I look at it as a litmus test for agent professionalism. When I was still querying agents, I sent out 77 queries for one book, got requests for two or three partials, and no fulls (a flawed book, to begin with).
Two of the partial requesters didn't respond within six months. I nudged. One agent fired back with 'Sorry I lost track of you!' and initiated a round of incredibly useful second reads. She ended up not wanting the book for good reasons, but her feedback was great.
The second agent never responded. I took them off my query list, and moved on.
Completely true, but this is no reason for any agent or editor to say they'll do something, and then not follow through. If you're too busy to get back to me quickly, then say so. Do this, and we're fine. I'll wait as long as it takes. But if yo say you'll get back to me within two weeks, then you eight get back to me within two weeks, or you aren't someone I want to work with.
I keep my word. Period. I expect anyone else I'm dealing with to do the same. Ninety percent do. Those who don't are people I won't work with. If they'll break their word in one area, they'll do the same in others.
Publishing isn't hell, it's just a plain old business. As a business, it's all about quality of product, and ability to keep delivering that product. "Quality" is nothing more than giving agents something that makes them see dollar signs. Dollars signs mean you have a product the agent believes millions of readers will part with beer money to buy.
But to be effective, this quality much show through in every aspect of writing, including the query letter. If it doesn't show through, complaining about agents and editors is pointless. They aren't the problem. The quality you're delivering is the problem.
The simple fact is that writing is a business, and if you can deliver the quality, you're in charge. Agents, editors, and the marketing department, will bend to your will like grass before the wind because you're how they make a good living. If you can't deliver the quality, or not quite enough of it, writing is just like any other business. It seems cold, harsh, and even hellish. But it usually isn't. It is, in fact, completely impersonal. They just don't want your product, and they tell you so. If you keep coming back with product after product that they never want, it does seem hellish, but they aren't asking you to keep coming back. This is your choice.
It's very much like the TV series Shark Tank. Very much like it. Writers should watch this show. The only thing different is all the people who never even made it to this stage. http://abc.go.com/shows/shark-tank/
But to be effective, this quality much show through in every aspect of writing, including the query letter. If it doesn't show through, complaining about agents and editors is pointless. They aren't the problem. The quality you're delivering is the problem.
The simple fact is that writing is a business, and if you can deliver the quality, you're in charge. Agents, editors, and the marketing department, will bend to your will like grass before the wind because you're how they make a good living. If you can't deliver the quality, or not quite enough of it, writing is just like any other business. It seems cold, harsh, and even hellish. But it usually isn't. It is, in fact, completely impersonal. They just don't want your product, and they tell you so. If you keep coming back with product after product that they never want, it does seem hellish, but they aren't asking you to keep coming back. This is your choice.
It's very much like the TV series Shark Tank. Very much like it. Writers should watch this show. The only thing different is all the people who never even made it to this stage. http://abc.go.com/shows/shark-tank/
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Well, you know, it might not seem very nice of me but every time an agent starts speaking about how dreadfully busy they are (and how this is an excuse for basically everything), I kind of want to tell them, at least you don't have a second day job.
At least as far as I know, most agents don't. Most editors don't. Most people working for the publishers don't have to have any other job. That's their job.
Whereas writers--most of them--receive so little money from this, they have to hold an additional job in order to survive. Even though without writers not a single one of those people would have had any sort of job to begin with.
At least as far as I know, most agents don't. Most editors don't. Most people working for the publishers don't have to have any other job. That's their job.
Whereas writers--most of them--receive so little money from this, they have to hold an additional job in order to survive. Even though without writers not a single one of those people would have had any sort of job to begin with.
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