The "T" Party.

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I agree. Even a lot of cisgender people experience gender confusion just because of how rigidly society is divided between gender roles, so the important thing is to just be yourself. If you feel like you need a label, don't let anyone talk you out of using it, but don't feel like you have to have one, either.
 

crunchyblanket

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Hi umm there. I am suffering from confusion and not 100% sure if i fit in this group or not. All I know is I am a girl who is in love with things for blokes like cars and football. I LOVE cars. I hope maybe there is way to understand myself and perhaps someone on here could help me understand.

You sound a little like me. I'm ostensibly a cis female, but I've never felt 'feminine' - I don't fit the Western ideal. But then, so many cisgender people don't. Our gender roles are so inflexible. Remember, it's not a failing on your part - there's absolutely nothing wrong with not fitting in perfectly with the expectations of your birth gender.
 

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You sound a little like me. I'm ostensibly a cis female, but I've never felt 'feminine' - I don't fit the Western ideal. But then, so many cisgender people don't. Our gender roles are so inflexible. Remember, it's not a failing on your part - there's absolutely nothing wrong with not fitting in perfectly with the expectations of your birth gender.

I am so strange. I am female but I hate girly stuff. I however love things people tell me is not girl stuff like car racing and football. It hurts because none of the girls I know accept me and I don't know how to be a girl. I am scared of surgery so its not possible to become a guy but how do i cope with people not accepting me as a tomboyish girl?
 

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Find new friends?

Sorry. That was just the first thing that came to mind...

Might be a good idea, why do people are so well against TGs, I don't understand. Why is it so wrong in people's eyes? I have been called freak when i have gone into shops selling things for football and cars.
 

Becca_H

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I am so strange. I am female but I hate girly stuff. I however love things people tell me is not girl stuff like car racing and football. It hurts because none of the girls I know accept me and I don't know how to be a girl. I am scared of surgery so its not possible to become a guy but how do i cope with people not accepting me as a tomboyish girl?

How do you identify on the gender spectrum?

Racing and football may be something more guys enjoy than girls, but it doesn't make it exclusive to one gender.

Also, you don't need surgery to transition. You may require it to legally receive gender recognition if Australia's laws work that way, but you can still transition without surgery.
 

Blaze

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How do you identify on the gender spectrum?

Racing and football may be something more guys enjoy than girls, but it doesn't make it exclusive to one gender.

Also, you don't need surgery to transition. You may require it to legally receive gender recognition if Australia's laws work that way, but you can still transition without surgery.

I know that I don't understand why I am a female.
 

Diana Hignutt

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I am so strange. I am female but I hate girly stuff. I however love things people tell me is not girl stuff like car racing and football. It hurts because none of the girls I know accept me and I don't know how to be a girl. I am scared of surgery so its not possible to become a guy but how do i cope with people not accepting me as a tomboyish girl?

I love football, baseball, hiking...it doesn't mean anything.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Diana's Magneto-like Pro-TG Speech

We are the next phase in human development. And many fear us because they do not understand us.

WE have a courage, a power that most do not. Our power was born of necessity. The power to choose to be ourselves. This seems to be nothing extraordinary at first look. However, when one recognizes the incredible power that culturally imposed norms exert over the individual...one sees how remarkable the power to disregard such expectations is.

Are we better than "ordinary humans"? Maybe, just a little bit.

By denying the cultural supremcy of expected gender roles...we become a little bit superhuman...

We have faced a wall that others never even question, and we have torn it down and strode across its boundary.

That's fucking amazing. I am so proud of you, my people. So very proud.

For others, the phrase, be who you are, is a natural no-brainer, but for us...it takes a courage and fortitude that they will never understand.

I salute you.

DISCLAIMER: Diana is not trying to build a Brotherhood of Transgender People to take over the world, nor does she have anything whatsoever against those who are not, through no fault of their own, transgender. No worries. She just resaw X-Men: First Class and is still buzzing.
 

crunchyblanket

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I am so strange. I am female but I hate girly stuff. I however love things people tell me is not girl stuff like car racing and football. It hurts because none of the girls I know accept me and I don't know how to be a girl. I am scared of surgery so its not possible to become a guy but how do i cope with people not accepting me as a tomboyish girl?

Being a girl is much more complex than being what people perceive as girly - I've always thought 'being a girl' was merely a biological state, something I pass with flying colours. In terms of the way I feel - no, I don't feel like a girl in the traditional sense. But I am a cis female - my birth gender and my 'inner' gender match.

The key here, I think, is that you're thinking of yourself in terms of what other people think you should be. You're biologically female so you should like x, y and z. Excuse my French, but that's so much bullshit. Society dictates I should like shopping, makeup, shoes, women's magazines. I don't like those things, and if society has a problem with it, society can go hang.

Don't beat yourself up for falling outside of the box. It's not as strange as you might thing.
 

Becca_H

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I know that I don't understand why I am a female.

Imagine a solid line, MALE being at the far left and FEMALE being on the far right. That's the gender spectrum. Where would you place yourself on this?

Anything like this is independent to whether someone feels the need to transition. That's a different matter entirely. But it's a guide and can help you identify any potential discomfort with your biological sex.

And just to reiterate, liking something that more men like than women doesn't automatically make you a man, or male, or anything. It's how you identify, and that's deeply personal and not something you can easily classify.
 

robertsloan2

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I'm FtM, a transman. Like many here, I look at gender as a continuum. I've known many interesting androgynous people, intersex people, androgynous asexual people and the whole rich variety of human personality.

On a scale where 00 is male and 99 is female, I rolled the 00. I was never capable of pretending to be female. My abuser told me that I "turned into a monster" at age three.

From then on, I was isolated completely. No one understood or believed a single thing I said. They took away my trucks and kept giving me these stupid baby dolls that my sister wanted. I gave them all to her. Around age four I made the biggest decision of my life. That was when I decided to become a science fiction/fantasy writer, make up stories and put them in print. Being a writer is the lifeline that kept me from killing myself time and again.

As a child I was disconfirmed by every human being in my world. Parents, teachers, priests, nuns, other children, I was treated like a monster. Every one of them expected me to feel things I didn't, do things I hated, ignore anything I liked, want what I didn't want, think what I believed was inherently wrong.

If gender didn't matter and was all psychological or social, I would have been accepted by at least some of those people. It's not. It's physical, there is a level of identity awareness that can fall anywhere on the spectrum. I tried several times to create an androgynous role. I fell flat on my face, what happened was that I played with labels and went on being who I am.

I have no special understanding of women's thoughts, feelings or nature by way of plumbing. I'm just that male and my body didn't fit. There are other things wrong with my body too. My right leg is 3cm shorter, my back is as crooked as a sidewinder and I have fibromyalgia along with stress induced asthma.

I've had a hard life. I'm 56 now and didn't get surgery till I was 50. I had no money for it. I got diagnosed in 1979 by Dr. Pomeroy at the Institute for Human Sexuality in San Francisco. I lived as male without benefit of surgery from that day on. Even though I didn't pass well at first, I made sense to people. No one picked on me any more. No one stared at me as if I just crawled out from under a rock.

I lost my hormones when I moved to Chicago to "get a better job." So I didn't even have that. I know now that contributed to a lot of the pain I had - when I have my hormones a literal pain goes away. It's like walking around with a major headache you haven't noticed yet, only all over my body. It can be ignored but it impairs me.

I got my surgical reassignment in 2006 and shortly after that, my legal change. Last week I finally heard back from Minnesota - they corrected my birth cerctificate. I'm legal now. I can finally vote, get a job or a driver's license, get a passport to leave the country. I still don't have a right to marry anywhere in the USA, there's some question as to whether I could marry anyone at all.

I moved back to San Francisco on August 1st. I missed my city every moment that I was gone. Coming home to San Francisco surprised me. When I first got here I had this wonderful thrill, this total excitement and feeling of adventure. Now that feeling's different - a strange new feeling of homecoming.

It's all familiar. Everything about it feels right as if I was born here. It's not exotic. It feels normal and everywhere else I've lived was foreign and strange, including New Orleans.

I never had a home. I didn't understand homesickness - even though I had it for thirty years. I didn't understand why I needed to live in San Francisco so much - why other places like Seattle didn't appeal to me. Everything cool about New Orleans does exist in other places, although with the weather I can see that SF is actually the best place for me physically too - here the weather doesn't set off my fibro the way real weather does in other places.

That's not why it's home though.

It's home because this is the place where I joined the human race. It's where a clerk at a McDonalds looked at me and said "Here's your food, Sir" without anything odd about it. This is where I got out of hell.

I would fit the cultural male role if I weren't so progressive and so much of an intellectual. Has anyone noticed that intellectuals get de-sexed? A guy wearing glasses who reads too much is Effeminate, not manly. A gal wearing glasses who reads too much is Masculine, not feminine. "Intellectual" is the third gender if you listen to the traditional ideas on gender.

Of course the cisgender intellectuals somehow manage to meet and marry and have kids anyway. The big difference is they buy a large library of kids books for their spawn.

Cultural gender stereotypes are not the same thing as gender identity. I know many cisgender women who are seriously into sports. They tend to find mates who love their favorite teams and get into it in a big way.

So one of the things I'm doing in this life is exploring alternative masculine roles - how to express my identity in a feminist-friendly way. I think of women as my equals. I think the class difference between men and women is just wrong. My whole outlook on life is "I'll be me and you be you."

Some years ago when Xena was still on the air, I saw an episode where she was up against a powerful demon. They cast an attractive blonde actress for the demon and had a deep-voiced male actor doing the demon's dialogue while she lipsynced. The demon had simple male-anger dialogue like "I will destroy you" and so on - nothing subtle, just brute male anger. A lot of it he was challenging Xena to clobber him in a typical male bluster before a dominance fight.

That made me see why I was so hated and feared. My voice was that deep after a couple of years of hormones. Even before my voice changed, when I was a child with a kid-voice, that's how I came off to people.

From the moment I made the social change and started using a male name, people stopped fearing me. They think of me as cool, a nice guy, okay, normal. It was all of the most normal reactions I had to anything that gave me the most trouble, because people's world view shattered at the fact of my existence.

Various cisgender women have asked me if I thought they were transgender too, just because they got gender-bashed over football fandom or assertiveness at work or ambition or whatever. I always tell them the same thing - you'd know, you'd know if it's worth pursuing it either. I think there are a larger number of genuinely androgynous people than most would imagine.

My identity doesn't rest in conservative values. I don't believe in them. There are a lot of contradictions and there's massive injustice over so many things that I can't swallow any of it.

That leaves me looking at who I am and thinking I need to help redefine gender roles, something more gradual and inclusive that does leave a "non-gender" option in clothing and custom and social signals.

The reason it took so long for me to finish transition is economic. Most of my disabilities have been there all my life, including fibromyalgia symptoms. It takes me five times the body energy to do anything than someone symmetrical. If I stay on my feet too long I throw my back and wind up with weeks of bed rest. I could not earn enough to pay for my treatment out of pocket.

I finally got it because I got a lucky tumor. It almost killed me, but my surgeons were great - they listed both reasons for my surgeries on the hospital records so I had no problem with getting my legal change once it was done. I am still angry with this country over the fact it has no public health system.

I should not have lost more than half of my life to an untreated medical condition so unlivable that I was tempted to kill myself at least once a month. That I adapted to it and survived does not negate the real risk of suicide that I faced. I survived but so many others kill themselves, can't take one more day of it, just die.

We need a real public health system and it needs to cover SRS as medically necessary treatment including cosmetic surgery. They don't say it's not necessary cosmetic surgery if someone's face gets burned off and they don't have a nose, that guy's nose job gets covered. That's what SRS is to those who need it.

That some individuals don't want surgery is up to them - anyone can actually refuse a medical treatment they don't want. If it was whether to get a pacemaker, the law wouldn't require someone to get it if they didn't want something artificial in their bodies.

I was afraid to make this post. I've been living stealth since my daughter moved the family to Arkansas and was mostly stealth online too. I know a few people in this community. Nonny gave me a link to this thread and I read the first couple of pages without realizing how long it was.

I have to be out about it. The fear is that people will treat me different - will assume untrue things about me, like some level of androgyny that just isn't there or some special knowledge of women's issues. Gender identity is real. For me it's something as physical and extreme as my bones. For others it may be more of a choice.

To me that's like looking at gay people and bi people. Gay people just are gay, that's how they're wired. Bi people aren't as hard wired and can choose to be gay. If they decide to be monogamous and stay faithful, then wow, it collapsed on the choice and they're gay if they married gay. That some people can choose doesn't mean that everyone chooses.

I wouldn't wish my childhood on my worst enemy. I'm still not sure how I lived to legal age, except that the hope of treatment was still there on some level and I hadn't published a science fiction book yet. I held on to my writing as a sacred duty, a promise to self. I know why it had to be Science Fiction too.

Dangerous Visions anthologies had stories with transgender people in them and transgender acceptance. That and in the old days, female SF writers took male pseudonyms - so writing SF was a way that I could be myself and use my real name instead of the wrong label my parents saddled me with.

So there it is. I'm out. I'm nervous as a cat at a dog show because I don't know most of you, but I'm out now. It was the right thing to do.
 
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Caitlin Black

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First of all, welcome. :)

Second - BIG *hugs*. You're a very strong person to have made it this far, and you did indeed go through hell. *hugs* again.

I did want to disagree with just one tiny thing you said though, about bi people.

I'm not bi, I'm a lesbian, but it is my understanding that bi people don't particularly have a choice. Yes, if they are monogamous, then who they are with will define what type of relationship they are in (gay or straight) - but I would still say that that person is bi. Like, if their marriage ended, they might look for someone of a different gender to their previous partner for their next relationship.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

Welcome again, and one more *hug*.

(I especially agreed with the social aspects of your post, and that men and women should be equals.)
 

Diana Hignutt

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Welcome, Robert. And thank you very much for sharing your story. It will help others. And you just made a bunch of new friends here.
 

robertsloan2

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Chris, you're right. I thought of it as a choice because I'm that monogamous and thought of it as which social groups I hung out with - you're absolutely right though. They're still bi even when in a monogamous relationship, just expressing it on the side that they married for the duration of the marriage. Sorry I put it that way.

It's an old habit from when I was in a gay relationship and I was bi, because I thought of myself as gay once settled down and lived a gay lifestyle rather than dating around. My definition made sense to me at the time because of how my mind works - I tend not to find anyone else attractive if I'm in a stable closed relationship. I was projecting my own experience as a bisexual who doesn't really look for outside possibilities.

PURR and thank you for this warm welcome! I'll try to stick more to I-statements. I hope I've clarified that better - I really didn't think of it that way until you commented that bi people when partnered are still bi. For me, my sexual preference has a name and is one individual once I've settled down.

I also clicked on the Jon Stewart link - ROFLMAO! He was fantastic! Areola 51! That was just awesome.
 
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robertsloan2

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I have one more thing to add to my story.

I've had a bad case of writers block about sending it out. Somewhat about editing, but I was able to push past that and make myself polish some of my books. Sending it out though, that was something I procrastinated on.

My decision to become a writer was rejected as thoroughly as my gender, always on gender grounds. They wanted me to write like a girl. Mysteries or Romance or Cookbooks or Housewife Humor if they wanted me to write at all. It was a big part of my fight for identity.

Being a writer also became a big part of why I chose to live. I fought down suicide because I was unpublished and I could not bear to leave this world as an unpublished writer. Some of that was alleviated by self publishing Raven Dance. No one can say I'm not a science fiction writer. They can say the book's trash, but it's definitely a book, it's definitely SF and that's my name on the dang thing.

I used to belong to a huge writing community on a website hosted by a female fantasy pro. I came out privately to the site owner and the other female pro fantasy writer who hung out there. Both of them accepted me or seemed to. I got into a rejection slip challenge and made my first pro sale.

Then 9-11 scared many of the members into a new wave of conservatism. Ms. Pro started giving slanted writing and submissions advice. Write for women readers, they buy lots more books than men. Write heroines. Bring in themes women like such as including small children. A robot story about the mechanical MC discovering his humanity was Too Far Out - not what it really was, a Cliche of SF but Too Far Out. Bit by bit any theme I cared about started falling into "It won't sell."

Before I ever wrote it or sent it out.

Walking a social tightrope over the new conservatism, I held my temper and followed the rules of the community. If new rules were instituted I supported them or was silent. They were often instituted. A site which used to be strongly for freedom of speech with a lively adult section started freezing up and a huge wave of "parents are always right" attitudes came in. Along with a lot of anti-Islamic flames that weren't always stamped out. Islamic members naturally got scared and I was always one of the mods who tried to stomp out those flames and ease the situation.

Two months before the end, Ms. Pro wrote my then-girlfriend a letter accusing her of lying about a lesbian relationship and calling me "at best, a woman with a penis." The twist of people who accepted me changing their minds about accepting me was a mind-warp betrayal. Up to that point, if someone had accepted me, I pretty much relaxed with them and assumed we'd still be able to communicate.

Nuh-uh. That was the nightmare of someone turning conservative and taking a giant step backward into ignorance. Like an evolutionary biologist suddenly spouting creationism.

The final kicker came in the last round of flame wars when Second Pro Author outed me on the main page of the site. The post rapidly turned into a flame thread as equal numbers fought over whether I had a right to be who I am or I didn't exist. Then I got banned by proxy because a housemate argued with Ms. Pro in chat.

From there everything went downhill.

I'm still pulling out bad ideas about SFF writing and markets like pulling infected bad teeth.

Coming out on this board was that hard because the last time I found a place I was that accepted, they changed their mind on it and drove me away in a huge wave of sudden conservatism. That's what the terrorists did to me, and to the Islamic friends I had on the site and anyone else who wasn't Normative.

I'm here now. I dared to come out before getting attached to the community. That was the right thing to do. I want it back. I want my life back. I want my writing back. I want to believe that Patrick and Teresa Neilsen-Hayden are real and other editors enjoy books with a liberal or progressive slant, that not all SFF is Romantic SFF, that if I don't get paid as much for SFF writing it's okay to be an artist and a science fiction writer.

I didn't expect to earn enough to live on with SFF when I was a kid - it was always Neurosurgeon and SF writer, Cowboy and SFF writer, Trucker and SFF witer, something cool and a writer. So the something cool day job that I probably won't toss is "artist and art instruction writer."

Thank you for welcoming me. Thank you for being you. Thank you for sharing this awesome community.

I got back on the horse again and this time i'm going to ride it to the finish. If my SFF novels turn into boys adventure with a progressive theme, they do. I read plenty of books like that and other writers are getting paid for them. Those blinders are just as bogus as nonwriters who say "nobody ever made a living writing." Demonstrably a whole lot of people do, every book in print has an author.

Thank you. Purr.
 
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Kim Fierce

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Thanks Robert I'm glad you're here and sorry about what you've been through. I came here after problems with a writing forum, too. There were those who had a problem everytime I posted something that had a GLBT theme and had to debate, not on my story, but to express their opinions about GLBT being "wrong" and etc. Here it is much better.

As for me, I'm a lesbian, but I do like androgyny.
 

crunchyblanket

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They're still bi even when in a monogamous relationship, just expressing it on the side that they married for the duration of the marriage.

Yep, that's how I see it. If Mr Crunchy had been female, I'd have felt no differently. And although I'm cheerfully monogamous, I still have the occasional crush on both men and women *points to avatar* :D

Welcome, and thank you for sharing your story.
 

Caitlin Black

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My hair is still growing (slowly!). The fringe still isn't long enough to tuck behind my ears, and there's no way I could use a hairtie or anything yet.

The real test will be the approaching summer. I'm gonna be sooo hot and sweaty with longish hair. But I'm going to try to persevere. Looking subtly feminine is important to me right now.

:)
 

robertsloan2

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Hmm... Cliff Face, maybe a trip to the salon could give you one of those subtly feminine touches with middle-short hair. Where on my haircuts I ask the salon to square off the bit in front of my ears, if you get them to trim it to a point it looks pixyish and more feminine.

That one little detail will do a lot to distinguish a woman's short haircut from a man's.
 

Caitlin Black

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I might try that. Thanks! :)

I'm kind of clueless about women's haircuts. At this point I'm just trying to grow it long. I can develop a more feminine cut once it's at a good length.

But I'll try your suggestion. :)
 

Caitlin Black

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Okay, so some of you might remember that I was thinking about doing one of my Uni assignments on transexuality.

Anyway, I eventually opted out of that, mostly because one of the topics I was not allowed to choose was gender roles... So I chose to do stereotyping instead.

Today was the day I presented my oral and creation (a picture) to the class. Part of my picture was related to gender stereotyping, and I had a chunk of my oral that listed all the ways in which not every man is blue and not every woman is pink (I chose the colours based on the traditional colours for a baby of a particular sex). I had planned on ending with a note of transexuals, but when it came time to read that part out, I spoke the first few examples then got nervous and just said "etc." instead of mentioning the Ts. Bad me.

But there was a Q&A after the oral (still graded) and someone said something about people who were born with both sexual organs, and how some parents would choose to not assign a gender to that child until their hormones kicked in. She finished up with something like, "So obviously, if the kid gets more female hormones, they'll be feminine."

Naturally, I disputed this, mentioning transexuals. In between the nervousness of not being "out" in real life, I couldn't think of any way to phrase my response but to use myself as an example.

So I basically said, "Well, I have male hormones. But I could be a girl. I could be feminine."

So in the end, I did allude to my own personal nature, though not explicitly. I didn't lie, but I didn't tell the whole truth. Which is pretty much what I had planned on doing.

And my concerns that I expressed in here a few months ago were unfounded. Nobody asked me point blank, "Well, are you a transexual?"

Which is good. Because I don't know how I would've answered. I probably would've lied, which would've made me feel like crap - but I'm so not ready to come out to people in my physical life...

So I just thought I'd mention it here. I think a part of my fear about talking about these things in real life sort of dissolved today... So that's good, right?
 

Kim Fierce

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Cliff Face -- It sounds like maybe you made a first, small step. This kind of thing may feel too big to talk about all at once, so if you go little by little it could be easier as you go! I think what you ended up doing was brave and still let you be comfortable, but you went just one step (or more) beyond your comfort zone. Maybe soon you will be able to go a little further.