Falling outside of the normal approach...

TIG&&

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A quick (well, it's not that quick sadly) question to garner some thoughts about the whole agent/publisher approach with a nonfiction book.

I am currently ploughing into a book about gardening. Now, before anyone tells me I'm an idiot and I should simply send out a proposal rather than writing the thing first, I think I need to explain why I have a dilemma.

The book is about gardening, and it covers a serious and proven approach that is somewhat outside of the norm. That said, the approach is slightly anarchic and does allow a great degree of freedom as to how it's adopted. The book isn't a 'how to' type affair; it's more about state of mind (calling it 'a philosphy' would be seriously over-gilding the lily). That said, it does have serious nonfiction content. By serious, I mean credible, not serious...

The book is humorous. It's not about funny gardeners or littered with gardening puns. It's got more a black comedy thing going on. It has a degree of sarcasm, a decent dose of irreverence, a smattering of iconoclastic thought, and some knob jokes, obviously.

I would not say that it's a comedy book with gardening as a theme, nor is it a funny gardening book!

Many of the principles core to the approach aren't explained directly as gardening-based examples. A variety of sources - political, religious, cultural, surreal - are used to make the points, with the Khymer Rouge rubbing shoulders with St Paul, werewolves and Ken Hom. There is also a thread of autobiographical anecdotes that focus upon life's little disasters.

It's written in an informal, almost chatty, style with an almost directness between the voice and the reader.

Thus far I've had parts of it read by a diverse range of readers - including non-gardeners - and the general reaction is that they want to read more, which for now I'm taking as a positive. The idea is sustainable because I've been working on it in various forms for four years. I think it works.

Here's the issue. Because of the structure and voice, plus the way the content is delivered, I can't see that a basic proposal will really convey what the book is. There are almost too many 'buffers' that it could hit in a publisher's mind.

I'm more than happy to be rejected if they don't like it or think it's viable as a product, but I am aware that it could also be rejected because the mix isn't usual. I am equally aware that stepping outside of the submission guidelines for nonfiction publishers will get it spiked quicker than something which will get work spiked quickly.

Trying to get an agent on-board could be a route, as many nonfiction agents do want sight of a number of chapters before committing. At least that way I can be happy that I'm being shown the door because the book is garbage rather than because it falls outside of the normal nonfiction expectations.

Anyway, I'm blathering, so any thoughts would be truly appreciated.
 
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Tazlima

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I am currently ploughing into a book about gardening.

Heehee. Was that pun intentional?

Anyway, this is just a thought, but what if you had a working title that not only encompasses but highlights the seemingly-disparate elements of your book (along the lines of Zen and the art of Motercycle Maintenance, Chicken Soup for the Soul, or The Tao of Pooh)?

How about: Hilarious Pathos of the Trowel (OK, that's pretty terrible, but you get the idea).

People might read on just to see how on earth you've connected the various subjects.

*ETA - I just noticed that the three titles I thought of all combine the mundane and the spiritual. Interesting.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

First off, both my yoga book and my Sikhism book are riddled with humor. I wrote most of both books first before approaching publishers or agents. Got both of them published based on the writing, not the proposal. So, that part's doable...although I'll warn you it took three years to find anyone willing to take the Sikhism book on. And yes, in your case, I would finish the book before sending it out.

Do you know your market? Do you know anyone in this field? (No pun intended.) It's easier to approach publishers/agents if you know this stuff.

And finally...how obscure or well-known are you? If obscure, can you grow your presence on the net?

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Fruitbat

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If it could fall under "creative non-fiction," it might do better as a complete manuscript, and queries sent out rather than proposals.

The book I'm working on is more clear cut (a "how to" guide on flash fiction) so this may or may not apply. I was going to self-publish it because I don't know if there's enough of an audience for an agent or larger small press to want it. But now I'm thinking I may as well at least take a swipe at trade publishing first.

Anyway, I am going to finish writing it before I send out the proposal. I think there's a huge difference between not knowing "the rules," and knowing them but declining. The thought of sending out proposals first just depresses me but I'm jazzed about writing it, so writing it is.

It's going to be written and published either way. And of course the proposal will be easier to write from a completed manuscript (I've already got the other books on the topic, because I wouldn't want to write something that's already out there anyway). If someone offers me a decent deal, I won't mind re-writing it per their suggestions. Otherwise, it will be ready to go and I can move on to the next thing. So you are not an "idiot," lol. It's just what you want out of it after understanding your options (or else I'm an idiot too, umm...)

Also, parts of my work-in-progress have been published as articles in writing magazines. It might help to send some excerpts out too, if you haven't yet. Good luck. I'll be watching your progress!
 
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Old Hack

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The book is humorous. It's not about funny gardeners or littered with gardening puns. It's got more a black comedy thing going on. It has a degree of sarcasm, a decent dose of irreverence, a smattering of iconoclastic thought, and some knob jokes, obviously.

I would not say that it's a comedy book with gardening as a theme, nor is it a funny gardening book!

Many of the principles core to the approach aren't explained directly as gardening-based examples. A variety of sources - political, religious, cultural, surreal - are used to make the points, with the Khymer Rouge rubbing shoulders with St Paul, werewolves and Ken Hom. There is also a thread of autobiographical anecdotes that focus upon life's little disasters.

It's written in an informal, almost chatty, style with an almost directness between the voice and the reader.

I don't work with gardening books although I have in the past, so I might well be out of the loop here: but all I hear from this description is that you think your book is great, and that you've included all sorts of stuff.

None of this gives me an idea of what your book is about. What it's like. How I'll feel if I read it. What I might get from it. Who would be likely to buy it.

Nor does any of this make your book sound different to or more interesting than many of the submissions which have passed my desk over the years.

It certainly doesn't explain how it's impossible for you to write a decent proposal with which to try to sell this book.

Thus far I've had parts of it read by a diverse range of readers - including non-gardeners - and the general reaction is that they want to read more, which for now I'm taking as a positive. The idea is sustainable because I've been working on it in various forms for four years. I think it works.

It's good that your friends have been encouraging. But this has no bearing on the issue in hand.

Here's the issue. Because of the structure and voice, plus the way the content is delivered, I can't see that a basic proposal will really convey what the book is. There are almost too many 'buffers' that it could hit in a publisher's mind.

Nevertheless, if you want to find an agent or a publisher you're going to have to write a strong proposal for your book.

This part is not negotiable.

Even if you finish the book before submitting it anywhere, you will still need that proposal.

Most good agents and editors will not read a finished book without having first read, and been intrigued by, a good proposal for that same book. Yes, they'll want to read a few chapters of your book before they make up their mind about it: but that's only going to happen if they have first read your proposal, and like what they read there.

The ones who are prepared to read your book without reading a proposal are going to need a proposal for it if they hope to take it to publishers. They'll expect you to do the majority of the work on that proposal.

Susan Page wrote a great book about writing proposals: it's called something like, "how to write a great book and make lots of money". It's worth a look if you're unable to put together your own proposal.
 

buz

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Your book sounds like it could be interesting, but there's kind of a problem in your post that needs to be resolved--

After your description, I still don't quite know what the book is really about. You've described around it without highlighting the core of it, to me, at least not in a clear way, and that is something you will have to fix in order to have a successful proposal. The person you're submitting to needs to know what the book is and where it goes in the market. It sounds, as someone has already mentioned, like a Zen/Motorcycle Maintenance kind of book, but I don't know for sure. You need to nail it down for a publisher/agent and present it clearly, let them know where it fits, what the audience is.
 

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Tazlima: Thanks for the reply. I think you're right in that the title will actually pin down the central thread of the book. I haven't really pushed that passed the 'general idea' stage because my experience is that publishers often have input on that and there will be reasoning behind their thinking. You're right, however, that the juxtaposition between the gardening and comedic elements will have to shine through. Some of the core is based upon radio slots so that'll have to be reflected as well. Thanks.

Siri: Thanks for your feedback. You obviously know the challenge of pushing something through that falls between two camps. I appreciate that it limits the options, but I'm happy to put the time in; I'm not in any great rush!

Fruitbat: Thanks for the comments. You've hit the nail on the head; it's going to be written anyway and I have a number of potential routes to market through other media if I choose to go independent. I agree that this is a case where it might be better to decline to follow the path of a traditional nonfiction proposal, simply because it won't sit comfortably within the mainstream market segment it targets.

Old Hack: Thanks for the comments. You make some good points, which is why I asked the question about pushing a nonfiction work some other way other than a proposal. By that I specifically meant a 'nonfiction' proposal as opposed to a fiction or creative proposal. It's my fault; I didn't make that clear. Whilst the work is nonfiction, it is, at heart, a creative narrative. That said, the core content is certainly credible nonfiction, and therein lies the dilemma. The distinctions between narrative nonfiction and core nonfiction, and narrative nonfiction and fiction are blurred. I'm just thinking about which way to push it.

Buzhidao: Thanks for your comments. I'm not too fussed about the focus of the proposal. It's more a question of whether I slant it towards a core nonfiction proposal or a narrative/fiction proposal.
 

Old Hack

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Old Hack: Thanks for the comments. You make some good points, which is why I asked the question about pushing a nonfiction work some other way other than a proposal. By that I specifically meant a 'nonfiction' proposal as opposed to a fiction or creative proposal. It's my fault; I didn't make that clear. Whilst the work is nonfiction, it is, at heart, a creative narrative. That said, the core content is certainly credible nonfiction, and therein lies the dilemma. The distinctions between narrative nonfiction and core nonfiction, and narrative nonfiction and fiction are blurred. I'm just thinking about which way to push it.

Fiction is sold through a query and a synopsis, and sample chapters.

Non-fiction is sold with a query and a proposal, along with sample chapters.

All books are, "at heart", creative narratives.

There is no dilemma here. The lines are not blurred. If you want to find an agent or publisher you need to write a good proposal for this book. And to do that you need to work out what the book is specifically about, as has already been suggested.

I am sorry if I sound harsh. I have read more slush than you can imagine, and have seen more books than you want to think about fail because their authors didn't present them properly.

Don't make things difficult for yourself. Give your work the best chance you can. Submit it in the way that publishers and editors want.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I guarantee your book is far, far, far from the most unusual, the weirdest, or the most difficult to describe book that have sold with a proposal. It's up to you to write a query and a proposal that will make publishers understand the book. If you can't do this, the book itself is likely to have problems with clarity.

And give editors some credit. They been at this a lot of years, and know what they're doing.
 

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So y'all are saying the book described should have a proposal rather than a synopsis, then?
 

wallfull

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As others have said, you need to write the proposal.
A good proposal will not only get the interest of an agent, it will also be the vehicle that the agent will use to interest editors.
Writing the proposal will also force you to think through what you want to do in this book, so it's a worthwhile exercise for any nonfiction book writer.

If it's your voice that you think is most enticing about the book, you can have a short (2-pages or so) introduction section in the proposal to spotlight that, but you'll also need the other parts: About the market, About the competition, Author qualifications, Promotion plans, Annotated outline (=intriguing one-paragraph description of each chapter)...

Some excellent books on proposals are:
Nonfiction Book Proposals Anybody can Write (Revised and Updated)
by Elizabeth Lyon
Write the Perfect Book Proposal: 10 That Sold and Why, 2nd Edition
by Jeff Herman and Deborah Levine Herman
How to Write a Book Proposal
by Michael Larsen


Good luck!
 

Old Hack

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So y'all are saying the book described should have a proposal rather than a synopsis, then?

It would need both. They do different things.