Trying To Get an Agent Without An Established Fan Base

pedroj012 · Apr 20, 2015

I've done some research into non-fiction publishing, and it seems like it is very important to have some kind of fan-base, whether it be through a popular blog, or maybe you're a well-known musician - people know you.

Is it worth it to try to create a query for agents if I don't have something like this already set up? Would it just make way more sense to start with a blog and try to build it over a long time?

Would love to hear from people who have published non-fiction! Thanks!

Chris P · Apr 20, 2015

Most of my non-fiction has been with scholarly articles, and not books, but from what research I've done, non-fic works very differently than fiction.

Those with better info are welcome to correct me, since it's been a number of years since I looked into this. In non-fic book publishing, you don't write the whole book before querying. Instead, you pitch the idea to the agent or publisher with a proposal and a few sample chapters first. You then negotiate a deal with the publisher to finish the project within a certain time period. That's the nutshell idea, anyway. It might be different for memoirs and creative non-fic.

Some non-fic publishers, especially for highly technical books and textbooks, want to know your reach in terms of how many classes you teach, how many students are in the class, etc. They also want to know what avenues for publicity you have, such as memberships in professional societies and such. At least the ones I approached about a study guide I wanted to develop wanted to know all that. The idea is to get an idea of what size of audience you might reach with the book. That project never went anywhere, and was long enough ago that things might have changed.

ETA: But to answer your question about fan base, I'm sure your professional/personal credentials for why YOU are writing this book are more important than a fan base build up through a blog or something. For factual stuff, it will be your education and training, for memoirs and creative non-fic it will likely be your personal skills and credentials. "Fan base" might be a consideration for marketing demographics, but I can't see how having one would be necessary as long as the book is informative.

Old Hack · Apr 20, 2015

pedroj012 said:
I've done some research into non-fiction publishing, and it seems like it is very important to have some kind of fan-base, whether it be through a popular blog, or maybe you're a well-known musician - people know you.

Is it worth it to try to create a query for agents if I don't have something like this already set up? Would it just make way more sense to start with a blog and try to build it over a long time?

Would love to hear from people who have published non-fiction! Thanks!

Writers of non-fiction are often told they need a platform in order to get a good publishing deal. This is mostly true. But a platform is rarely a blog with a good following.

What I look for (I'm a non-fiction editor, not an agent) is an indication of expertise and reputation. So, if a submission crosses my desk and I think it's well-written and has commercial potential, I'll then look at its author. Is the author qualified to write the book? This means different things: if the book is, for example, about the history of castles I'd expect the author to perhaps teach history at a good university; if the book discusses a particular significant event then I'd expect the author to either have professional experience and qualifications pertinent to that event, OR to have lived through the event and have an interesting story to tell about it.

Having a popular blog is useful: but it's not, in my opinion or experience, the most important thing to consider. Qualifications, pertinent experience, expertise. That's what I want in a non-fiction writer.

cornflake · Apr 21, 2015

pedroj012 said:
I've done some research into non-fiction publishing, and it seems like it is very important to have some kind of fan-base, whether it be through a popular blog, or maybe you're a well-known musician - people know you.

Is it worth it to try to create a query for agents if I don't have something like this already set up? Would it just make way more sense to start with a blog and try to build it over a long time?

Would love to hear from people who have published non-fiction! Thanks!

Are you working on two different things? In another thread you're talking about a novel. Just wondering.

In any event - some non-fic doesn't necessarily need an agent. More goes direct to publishers than fiction, though it depends what type and what publishing houses you'd be thinking of targeting.

If you did want to pursue an agent, listen to Old Hack.

Fruitbat · Apr 21, 2015

To add to what's already been said here, I'm working on my third short how-to/self-help book. I would look up similar books on Amazon and see:

1) Are most of them self-published or put out by a micro-press (which I'm considering the same thing for our purposes here)? Or put out by a decent-sized small press, or a big publishing house?

That gives you an idea of the size of your market. If these results show that it's too niche, regional, obscure, whatever, for decent-sized publishers to be interested, then you'd probably have to self-publish it. And...

2) Are most of the authors highly credentialed experts, or celebrities, or more "regular" people?

If most of the books are written by one or both of the first two types of people above and you are more the third type of person above, then you'd probably have to self-publish it.

My next nonfiction book will be self-published too. So far, I'm finding either my topic or myself as the writer is not what publishers are after. But I don't want to spend years becoming an expert on one thing and only write about that. I like to gather my experience and research while I'm jazzed about my topic, write it up, then move on to the next new thing. So, if after downloading the other books out there on my topic, I still think I have something to add that people would want to know, I write it anyway and self-publish it.

I think if you don't have the big following or big credentials ahead of time, then that's probably going to be all you've got to go in with and that's just how it is. I don't think the typical blog or bit of practical education/experience will impress most editors.

That's been my experience so far, fwiw. Good luck!

pedroj012 · Apr 21, 2015

cornflake said:
Are you working on two different things? In another thread you're talking about a novel. Just wondering.

In any event - some non-fic doesn't necessarily need an agent. More goes direct to publishers than fiction, though it depends what type and what publishing houses you'd be thinking of targeting.

If you did want to pursue an agent, listen to Old Hack.

Oh man I've always got a bunch of projects I'm working on or thinking about. Thanks for the input.

One thought I've had for non-fiction is that I've worked temp jobs for 6 years, changing jobs about every 6 months, so I feel like I have a window into the temp world, which is a pretty hilarious and scary world sometimes.

pedroj012 · Apr 21, 2015

Old Hack said:
Writers of non-fiction are often told they need a platform in order to get a good publishing deal. This is mostly true. But a platform is rarely a blog with a good following.

What I look for (I'm a non-fiction editor, not an agent) is an indication of expertise and reputation. So, if a submission crosses my desk and I think it's well-written and has commercial potential, I'll then look at its author. Is the author qualified to write the book? This means different things: if the book is, for example, about the history of castles I'd expect the author to perhaps teach history at a good university; if the book discusses a particular significant event then I'd expect the author to either have professional experience and qualifications pertinent to that event, OR to have lived through the event and have an interesting story to tell about it.

Having a popular blog is useful: but it's not, in my opinion or experience, the most important thing to consider. Qualifications, pertinent experience, expertise. That's what I want in a non-fiction writer.

Awesome, thanks for the reply. Good to know that expertise trumps blog. I have a handful of ideas where I could consider myself an expert in the topic, but I think I need to narrow them down before running with eight different proposals.

pedroj012 · Apr 21, 2015

Fruitbat said:
To add to what's already been said here, I'm working on my third short how-to/self-help book. I would look up similar books on Amazon and see:

1) Are most of them self-published or put out by a micro-press (which I'm considering the same thing for our purposes here)? Or put out by a decent-sized small press, or a big publishing house?

That gives you an idea of the size of your market. If these results show that it's too niche, regional, obscure, whatever, for decent-sized publishers to be interested, then you'd probably have to self-publish it. And...

2) Are most of the authors highly credentialed experts, or celebrities, or more "regular" people?

If most of the books are written by one or both of the first two types of people above and you are more the third type of person above, then you'd probably have to self-publish it.

My next nonfiction book will be self-published too. So far, I'm finding either my topic or myself as the writer is not what publishers are after. But I don't want to spend years becoming an expert on one thing and only write about that. I like to gather my experience and research while I'm jazzed about my topic, write it up, then move on to the next new thing. So, if after downloading the other books out there on my topic, I still think I have something to add that people would want to know, I write it anyway and self-publish it.

I think if you don't have the big following or big credentials ahead of time, then that's probably going to be all you've got to go in with and that's just how it is. I don't think the typical blog or bit of practical education/experience will impress most editors.

That's been my experience so far, fwiw. Good luck!

Thanks, that sounds like great advice. I'll definitely start hunting out similar books and figuring out what has worked publishing-wise. Good luck with all of your future books!

WeaselFire · Apr 21, 2015

pedroj012 said:
I've done some research into non-fiction publishing, and it seems like it is very important to have some kind of fan-base, whether it be through a popular blog, or maybe you're a well-known musician - people know you.

First, it really depends on what area of non-fiction. In the non-fiction world, a platform is what grants you the "authority" to write on a subject. If you're well known online and in crafting circles for providing solid information on building and selling Christmas decorations, then writing a book on Christmas Decoration Crafting is a natural progression. If you once saw a TV show about Julia Child's CIA history, then you're probably not in a position to write an authoritative book on Chinese cooking.

Reputation sells books. Agents want to represent books that sell. Thus agents want writers with excellent street cred in their topic.

Note that reputation and credibility don't have to be related to online platforms or to having "fans" of your other, related work. If you have now buried three close relatives who lost extended battles with thumb cancer and have cared for those relatives, the rest of the family and the households during those ordeals, then you're probably perfectly qualified to write a book on Living and Dying with Thumb Cancer. You have a platform, even if nobody beyond a close set of friends and relatives knows about it yet.

And for those that object, yes, to me, cancer is a laughing matter. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have lasted long enough to writethis.

Jeff

pedroj012 · Apr 21, 2015

WeaselFire said:
First, it really depends on what area of non-fiction. In the non-fiction world, a platform is what grants you the "authority" to write on a subject. If you're well known online and in crafting circles for providing solid information on building and selling Christmas decorations, then writing a book on Christmas Decoration Crafting is a natural progression. If you once saw a TV show about Julia Child's CIA history, then you're probably not in a position to write an authoritative book on Chinese cooking.

Reputation sells books. Agents want to represent books that sell. Thus agents want writers with excellent street cred in their topic.

Note that reputation and credibility don't have to be related to online platforms or to having "fans" of your other, related work. If you have now buried three close relatives who lost extended battles with thumb cancer and have cared for those relatives, the rest of the family and the households during those ordeals, then you're probably perfectly qualified to write a book on Living and Dying with Thumb Cancer. You have a platform, even if nobody beyond a close set of friends and relatives knows about it yet.

And for those that object, yes, to me, cancer is a laughing matter. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have lasted long enough to writethis.

Jeff

Cool thanks! Almost every question I've gotten answers to on these forums has made me think that the barriers to entry are way lower than I thought they were. Obviously I still need to write things people want to read, but I was totally under the impression that you needed this huge loyal fan-base to have any shot.

Fruitbat · Apr 21, 2015

@Pedro- I think a book of temping advice colored with fun personal anecdotes from your experience with it is a great idea. If I was one of the many people out there considering getting into temping, I'd definitely want to read it, regardless of who the publisher was. I mean, I'd go for the agent or decent-sized press if it looked like they might want it. But even if they didn't, it might just do pretty well from the Amazon sales.

pedroj012 · Apr 21, 2015

Fruitbat said:
@Pedro- I think a book of temping advice colored with fun personal anecdotes from your experience with it is a great idea. If I was one of the many people out there considering getting into temping, I'd definitely want to read it, regardless of who the publisher was. I mean, I'd go for the agent or decent-sized press if it looked like they might want it. But even if they didn't, it might just do pretty well from the Amazon sales.

Cool, thanks! Yeah it's been an interesting ride.

wallfull · Apr 25, 2015

The major publishers are the ones who care most about author platform in terms of having a huge personal reach. Small and midsize publishers are more open to considering authors with credible expertise who aren't, for example, teaching at Harvard and speaking to large audiences twenty times a year. Having spent 6 years working temp jobs certainly qualifies you to write about this topic, and if you can do it with humor and perspicacity, agents and editors could very well be interested! (You'll also need to establish market size: How many people work temp jobs?)

Claudia Traveller · Sep 15, 2015

Some good advice (again) on this thread. I have an idea for a non-fiction book and threads like this are very helpful. What's becoming clear is that non-fiction books work quite differently to novels - and how to publish them successfully depends greatly on the subject.

onthefence · Sep 18, 2015

I am in an interesting situation. I decided to go ahead and do the research and begin writing the manuscript for a major nonfiction book -- serious narrative nonfiction, history, that sort of thing -- and have spent years at it. I mean YEARS. Nonfiction authors aren't supposed to do this. They're supposed to PROPOSE a book to an agent, get signed by the agent, then PROPOSE the book to a publisher, get signed, then get paid an advance, then go do the research and in a couple months or years, out comes the book. Ha. I didn't wanna wait. So I went and did the research, and am already deep into the manuscript.

I've been querying for a while now, a couple of form rejects from lower-level obscure agents, radio silence from the rest. I spent a ton of time being very picky about the agents I queried: only those who demonstrated an interest in and existing clients doing real serious nonfiction, big history books, biographies, current events on technology, the internet, that sort of thing. I contacted every agent who'd repped my favorite nonfic books on my bookshelf, basically.

Some of these agents are superstars, of course, since my favorite nonfiction books are for the most part bestsellers over the past 10 years. We're talking ICM, WritersHouse, Janklow & Nesbit, WME, etc.

It's kind of frustrating trying to get info on agents in a world nearly saturated by fiction writers. Like in forums like these

Even in the nonfiction world, so much of nonfiction is not the years-of-research journalistic kind of nonfiction, but self-help, how-to, memoirs, and other sub-genres. So it's hard to find a place where the long-form, serious, narrative/journalistic nonfiction writers hang out.

I'd love to know of any other forums where such nonfiction folks hang out, if anybody knows.

As for platform: I've spent 30 years researching my book's subject, a subject I have personal involvement in, and knew where to look and who to talk to. Did tons of travel, spent over $150K on expenses over the years. This is a major thing. No-one has ever written a book on the subject I'm covering. All of this is fresh, new info, that's going to upset a lot of establishment authors, magazines, and media types, because they've been pumping out a version of history for many years that utterly ignores, deliberately in some cases, the subject of my book. So when my book comes out, I expect quite a lot of scrambling on their part and even on the part of the Big 5 publishers who've been publishing books for years that omitted any mention of the subject of my book.

Anyways. It's going to be interesting.

Oh, why "on the fence" as a user ID? Because I am teetering on the fence with the decision to abandon agents and publishers altogether -- this waiting and begging is absurd, imho -- and go the Amazon self-publishing route. The clock is ticking and I'm giving agents about 30 more days and if they haven't responded, adios muchachos.

THXXXX · Sep 19, 2015

On The Fence:

Thanks for the details of your journey. It does sound familiar. The authors of the Chicken Soup For The Soul series were rejected by 144 publishers. The author of The Help was rejected 60 times. I am sure others can share similar stories. It is obvious that the front line employees that filter the proposals and query letters are not as old as most belly-button lint, so they do not have the slightest idea what will sell in the marketplace. It is not their fault; they do the best they can. If they knew anything about how to make the appropriate decisions, they would have focus groups that read only a small portion of a proposed book to make the decision. The public is the market place; not front line employees who are exhausted by the process they must endure.

Helix · Sep 19, 2015

THXXXX said:
On The Fence:

Thanks for the details of your journey. It does sound familiar. The authors of the Chicken Soup For The Soul series were rejected by 144 publishers. The author of The Help was rejected 60 times. I am sure others can share similar stories. It is obvious that the front line employees that filter the proposals and query letters are not as old as most belly-button lint, so they do not have the slightest idea what will sell in the marketplace. It is not their fault; they do the best they can. If they knew anything about how to make the appropriate decisions, they would have focus groups that read only a small portion of a proposed book to make the decision. The public is the market place; not front line employees who are exhausted by the process they must endure.

[My emphasis]

To quote Pauli, this is not even wrong.

If publishers were unable to determine which books would be good sellers, they'd have gone broke by now.

If publishers hired focus groups to read ever manuscript that came in, they'd go broke. (Btw, publishers often use assessors for scholarly and specialist books, but that's to look at the accuracy and worth of material that they're already seriously considering.)

If purchasers felt the need to read an entire book before they bought it, publishers would go broke.

And as for your snipe about the publishers' readers...

susangpyp · Nov 21, 2015

I sold my first book based on the popularity of my blog and my expertise. That was back in 2008 when blogs were "sexy." Today it's more about FB pages, YouTube videos, Twitter followers, and all forms of social media. A blog would just be part of it.

You have to show you will market yourself and you have to be social media savvy. When I was shopping my book, blogs were very very new and they were impressed with my knowledge and my following. Now you have to show you can and will market yourself in social media...across all platforms. It's a lot of work (established authors have to work at it too...so I KNOW!)

How To videos are extremely popular. If you have a ton of expertise, I would start channeling it into social media. You might have to pay for some promoted tweets or Facebook posts, but it's worth it. Just a few hundred dollars a month could really make a difference. You can start a blog and have your videos and tweets and FB pages point to the blog. It's a lot of work

susangpyp · Nov 21, 2015

When I was shopping my book, I was told the relationship genre was way too saturated to make room for another book. So that was obviously wrong. My book has been in the top 10 of Amazon divorce for years now.

On the other hand, if no one has ever published a book on the subject, it could be because no one is interested in that book. I was told to position my book in the middle, not ever say no one has EVER done this before but make sure you distinguish it from what is already out there. Saying "this is the most unique book ever" doesn't always work. It's not always a good thing.

Horseshoes · Nov 30, 2015

Non-fic is incredibly diverse. If you can ID a hole in the market and you can fill the hole, good on ya!

Jeff C. Stevenson · Dec 5, 2015

I spent seven years writing and researching my book. I had to interview 17 former members of one of the most brutal cults of the 1960s and 1970s. (One former member of Larry Hill’s community, who had read accounts of the physical and sexual brutality of the well-publicized Unification Church and the Children of God cults, said “ours was much worse.”)

It wasn't until I finished the book and all the interviews that I was able to write the proposal. I know that's a bit backwards but there really isn't one way to do NF, especially in a case like mine. I found agents were very receptive to my proposal and had no problem using it to sell the book.

As for a platform, we're lucky to be alive in the world of social media. So get your Twitter feed up and running and your FB, etc. I learned that all counts since we can't all have a true platform (speaking at conferences.) I also was able to reach out to experts in my field (eg, the realm of cults) as well as bestselling authors who agreed to blurb the book once it came out. That was all credited as my "platform" so if you don't one, feel free to reach out to the well-known people in your field and see if they will lend support to your project.

Best of luck!

onthefence · Dec 18, 2015

Update to my previous post: in late October I signed with an agent, and as of yesterday we have an offer from a very prominent publisher. We're negotiating the terms now. Things are looking good!

Update to update: terms negotiated and agreed upon. Next step: contract!

susangpyp · Jan 5, 2016

Amazing and congratulations!!!!

wallfull · Jan 21, 2016

Congratulations, onthefence! Consider going to the ASJA (American Society of Journalists and Authors) conference www.asja.org
It's the premiere association for nonfiction writers.

Emily Winslow · Jan 21, 2016

Wonderful news! Share details when you can

Trying To Get an Agent Without An Established Fan Base

pedroj012

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Fruitbat

.

pedroj012

pedroj012

pedroj012

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member

pedroj012

Fruitbat

.

pedroj012

wallfull

author, psychologist, speaker

Claudia Traveller

onthefence

Nonfiction author

THXXXX

Helix

socially distancing

susangpyp

susangpyp

Horseshoes

lisapreston.com

Jeff C. Stevenson

Author of FORTNEY ROAD

onthefence

Nonfiction author

susangpyp

wallfull

author, psychologist, speaker

Emily Winslow

Do Not Walk on the Grass