The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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Ken Schneider

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JennaGlatzer said:
Actually, SNIPPED< CAUSE JENNA"S LONG WINDED.
I don't mean that they don't deserve to be published "ever." I mean that most first books don't deserve to be published. But writers don't realize that at the time.

Exactly, self included.

I'm on my sixth complete work of fiction. The fifth was fair, but as I have learned here, with Jim's help, among others, I can see the progress.

Am I there yet? No. I can see improvement, and that is enough for now.

I am thankful that I now know what to work on.

That is a plus from the days of P.A.

The person that just decides to throw a book together without any knowledge of writing, just because it is a dream of theirs, is destined for the P.A. book machine.
 
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SC Harrison

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spike said:
Why is self publishing seen as an alternative? If the above is true, then, most of those new writers don't deserve to be published. It is the culling of the weak.

Your assessment is correct, but it's also incorrect.

If a writer wants his/her work to be in print so that it can be read by people, if even on an extremely small scale, self-publishing provides a process where this can be achieved. Everybody deserves the right to pursue this venture, regardless of the literary quality or marketability of the book in question. I have tens of fans who have enjoyed my book, and I plan on self-publishing a sequel in the near future, before the buzz wears off.

What we self-publishers do not deserve, however, is to be considered equal to those whose works are selected by a publishing entity that is willing to invest their time, money and reputation solely on the quality and marketability of said work.

There is no conflict between the two, and there is no comparison of the two that can realistically be made. They are as different as a pick-up basketball game (in a white neighborhood) and the NBA.
 

DaveKuzminski

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XThe NavigatorX said:
That's not just any t-rex. It's the t-rex from the movie. I had a poster of it in my dorm room.

I just visited the guy's website. I'm surprised his agent didn't say anything about the cover. I guess they didn't get a screening of the movie down in Boca Raton.

Don't even bother involving the author. PA selected the artwork. Let PA suffer. Report it to the people who own the copyright for that movie. Eventually, PA's wallet will be empty and that's when they'll turn to dust and blow away.
 

CampCreek

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Yeah, it was a joke, Danny, but don't be embarrassed about the tirade. You just showed all of us, in no uncertain terms, that you belong here. :welcome:
 

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XThe NavigatorX said:
I just visited the guy's website. I'm surprised his agent didn't say anything about the cover. I guess they didn't get a screening of the movie down in Boca Raton.

Just to be totally explicit, from the author's website:

He is professionally represented by ST Literary Agency of Boca Raton, Florida.


Yes, it's Boppin' Bobby Fletcher. So.... we have another book to put on ST's "sold" pile. I wonder what Bobby's going to do with the $0.15 he earned for this sale?
 

ResearchGuy

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SC Harrison said:
...What we self-publishers do not deserve, however, is to be considered equal to those whose works are selected by a publishing entity that is willing to invest their time, money and reputation solely on the quality and marketability of said work.....
I have posted a lengthy reply at http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=431069#post431069 -- it was probably too off-topic here.

--Ken
 

Christine N.

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XThe NavigatorX said:
I wonder if the Jurassic Park folks would take issue with the cover of this PA book.

That's supposed to be a dragon, btw.

Ack! That's not even funny, and I hope the author realizes what they've gotten themselves into.

This is ALMOST as bad as the Orlando Bloom as a vampire cover.

Ack again! Makes me want to throw up. Want a real dragon cover - go look at the cover of mine ;)
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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Sassenach said:
Danny, like so many PA 'authors' take himself [and not the work] so seriously.
Oh, Good Lord, Sass, was that really necessary? The matter was resolved already; there's no call for a final nasty claw-swipe to the face here.

Nor for the snide scare quotes around the word "authors". The AW policy regarding the wholesale slamming of PA's victims--which is, don't--has been well established for quite some time now.

Gahhhh.

Welcome, Danny and other newcomers. Enjoy yer stay. Glad t'have ya.
 

astonwest

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A little over five weeks left to the end of the royalty period...another month for the checks to be mailed out...will we see another byob (buy your own books) announcement from the home office?

[parody]
Christmas was great this year. This year, PA sold more books to their main customers than any other traditional publisher out there. To celebrate, we're going to give you and all those bookstores out there the chance to stock up for a terrific 2006.

1-50 books, 5% discount
51-100 books, 10% discount
101-150 books, 25% discount
151+ books, 40% discount

This offer only lasts until we count to 100, so have your credit card ready and call today!
[/parody]
 

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So how do you know?

JennaGlatzer said:
I'm sure that not all first manuscripts are bad... but from what I've seen, most are. The writer doesn't realize at that point that the first manuscript was practice. It seems unthinkable-- all that hard work down the drain? But really, it wasn't a waste of time. Every time you write, you learn a little, grow a little. Then one day you write something so darn good that it really does deserve to be published, and suddenly those agents and publishers don't seem so heartless and closed as you once thought they were.

Okay, this is probably a stupid question. How does a writer know if his/her book is so darn good that it really does deserve to be published?

Ever since I got the rights back to my books PA had, I feel like I've been on a roller coaster emotionally. Some days I have loads of confidence. Other days I feel very low, and think 'maybe those writers at AW are right and my writing is most likely trash since PA printed it'. I finished writing and editing my fourth historical novel in November. I have written my query. I've made a list of agents. But at this point in time my confidence is waning. I am hesitating querying the agents on my list. I've had readers (not PA authors) ask me when my next book is coming out and if I am going to have my other books republished. I look at my reviews from legit reviewers (not PA authors) and some days they give me a boost of confidence, other days I wonder if they were just being nice.


There are a lot of positive things that happened to me when PA published my books. Yes, books. I signed with them in 2000 and 2002. I didn't know about AW and the information about PA was not out like it is now. The positive things were generated by myself....the book signings, speaking engagements, charity events. Publish America did nothing to help me succeed.



However, once I found out what scam had taken me in by a company in my own hometown, I caved. I do admit I was elated they let me go. But I I wonder if I've been foolish to pursue a dream of being a published author.



So, tell me, how do I know if this manuscript I am about to circulate is worthy of publication? By the number of rejections? Honestly, I've read some novels published by NY publishers that I thought were terrible, yet they made it.



Is it how well the writing is? Or is it a name, the genre, or the marketability of a book? What can a writer who was scammed by PA, had their contracts terminated out of the blue, do? Give up thinking their writing probably isn't good enough because PA published them? Or move on and keep trying?
 

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FINALLY back online!

As Murphy's Law would have it, my connection went down yesterday, and I couldn't get back online till now.

I sincerely thank those who gave me the warm welcome.

Sassenach, what earth-changing piece have you written lately that puts you on such a high pedestal of lumping all authors of one publisher together? Tell me your credentials before you judge my writing. It would also help if you READ IT FIRST. On second thought, even that doesn't matter unless you're a decision maker at Putnam, Random House, etc. Even then I question their abilities if they let pure literature slide but publish garbage by ex-Presidents. I'm not going to waste much of my time proving myself and my writing to you or anyone on threads. Let's just see what happens over time.

By the way, for those who slam vanity and self-publishing, _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_, _Moby Dick_, and countless others were originally self-published, PAID for such, because the editors and publishers had no faith in the works' commercial value. Idiots! So don't automatically turn your noses up at self-published books. That air of conceit just proves insecurity and snobbery. I will continue to self-publish as an option because many "editors" have the job title but not the knowledge. They wouldn't know a modal from subjunctive form, and they would swear that one can NEVER use a comma before _because_. To think that one's writing is automatically better than someone else's just because it's been accepted by a "big time" publisher is absolutely ridiculous.

On a more positive note, Steve, I am NOT insulted by YOU! I know you, and you are very serious about writing. You wrote a question that is prevalent at that "other" place, and yes, I saw "red" but not at you. I saw red at that question that you presented (sarcastically, I know), which is a question that drives me insane. I know that a lot of people from that "other" site read this site. They know that if they respond in truth there that they will be banned. That's why I posted on here--to reach out to there without getting automatically banned there. (I wasn't referring to getting banned here, but that wouldn't bother me either. Instead of posting, I will write other material.)

There are some serious writers over there, people who are suffering from the same crap that I am dealing with at being lumped into the overall heap. Many I know privately. I've tried to help them, especially showing them how I got my non-exclusive rights with NO gag order. And no, I'm not going to post it on here. I have four years, ten months, and eighteen days left in the non-exclusive "agreement."

As you can see, I don't just complain about things. I do something about it.

Sassenach, we may just have gotten off on the wrong foot. You decide.

As for everyone else, you see that I said "I'm no great writer." But I'm working on it, as I'm sure many others are, too. It is not conceit. It is hard work. The number of books published by someone doesn't make them great. It's that one book or work of writing that will be studied, analyzed, and taught from a hundred years from now that will eventually prove a work's worth. It's too bad we'll never be around to see it.

As I implied, I am no longer out to save the world from predators. The year 2006 will be the new me, concentrating on my own writing, no more editing or copyediting of others' works. The bad experience at that "other" place has taught me a lot and made me even more determined. Maybe such a reality check is even good experience for serious writers who don't yet know the ropes.

Unfortunately, I suspect that many will take what I say as conceit. I'm not conceited. I'm just sick of the excuses, sick of the snobbery, sick of the complaints without action, and sick of having my writing automatically judged just because I published at that "other" place.

I wish good writing to all, and I thank you for "listening."

Danny Lee Ingram
 

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D L I said:
By the way, for those who slam vanity and self-publishing, _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_, _Moby Dick_, and countless others were originally self-published, PAID for such, because the editors and publishers had no faith in the works' commercial value.
Oh, dear. Will this myth never die? See Autobibliophilia for a detailed explanation of what's wrong with this statement.
 

SC Harrison

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ByGrace said:

Ever since I got the rights back to my books PA had, I feel like I've been on a roller coaster emotionally. Some days I have loads of confidence. Other days I feel very low, and think 'maybe those writers at AW are right and my writing is most likely trash since PA printed it'.

I have a feeling this rollercoaster effect is common, even among those who have been published. I am constantly questioning my own abilities, and wondering if I am wasting my time by pursuing such a difficult goal.

As far as the association with PA, I think you have it backwards. The fact that they will print anything merely means you can't use their acceptance to guage the quality of your work.
 

James D. Macdonald

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ByGrace said:
Okay, this is probably a stupid question. How does a writer know if his/her book is so darn good that it really does deserve to be published?

You find out by sending it around until Hell won't have it.

While you're doing that, you're studying how to improve your craft, and you're writing another book. You send that one around.

Then you write another. And another.

You keep learning, you keep writing.
 

D L I

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Myth or truth, I could care less. What is religion anyway? Prove me wrong about Twain. Again, I could care less, but I don't take unsigned, generic websites and hearsay as solid proof. What I wrote is my belief. It is not solid proof, and I'm not going to waste time proving or disproving it. I'd rather be writing.

I'm also not going to waste my life waiting for some "editor" to validate my writing by publishing it.

Impressing peers about writing or publishing is a waste of time. Peers don't buy many books anyway.

With former PA books, one can continually submit, or one can self-publish, put such in the past, and move on and write something new. Chalk it up to experience. Don't let that book just sit on the shelf and collect dust, and don't let yourself collect dust.

I'd rather have a self-published book in hand than nothing to show but loose pages for all that time spent.

Evidently, some people don't consider others to be serious writers unless they're signed with the big boys.

As I implied, time will tell.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Hi, Danny.

You might be interested to know that the first American edition of Moby-Dick was published by Harper Brothers. The first British edition was published by Richard Bentley, in three volumes, under the title The Whale. Melville received an advance of 150 pounds from Bentley while he was working on the book (a substantial amount at the time).

In later life Melville did indeed self-publish five volumes of poetry.

While Huckleberry Finn was self-published, it was after Twain was already the best known and best selling author in America. Twain was attempting to demonstrate a new technology -- a typesetting machine -- in which he was heavily invested. What's less well known is that he went bankrupt with his self-publishing venture and had to go on speaking tours to earn back the money to pay his creditors.

The various internet sites featuring self-publishing success stories can be misleading. Many of those stories date from the 19th century, when the publishing industry was different from the industry we see today, or mention authors who are famous for works other than their self-published books. (For example, L. Frank Baum, author of The Wizard of Oz, did in fact self-publish. But what he self-published was pamphlets on chicken farming. Margaret Atwood self-published, but what she self-published was a volume of poetry the year she graduated from college.)

The 19th century was interesting in a lot of ways -- the royalty system that we see today, and large parts of copyright, were being developed at the time. But it can be misleading if you're using it to figure out whether certain publishing plans are good ones for today.

If you're interested in publishing today and tomorrow, it might be more fruitful to look at publishing today and yesterday, rather than at publishing a century and a half ago.
 

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D L I said:
Evidently, some people don't consider others to be serious writers unless they're signed with the big boys.

Those who believe that are very much in the minority, at least around here, and their opinion can be discounted.

Most of us consider "serious writers" to be those who are, or are working hard at, being paid for their writing.
 

D L I

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Hi! Thanks for the reply and the information. See? I was indeed 1/2 wrong.

Actually, even though I do self-publish some, I'm still in pursuit of the "big boys," a necessary evil in our midst if we want recognition.

I had to chuckle at Twain's predicament. It's what that "other" place wants its authors to do, sink a lot of cash into a gamble.

I hope there are no hard feelings with anyone on here. A work will eventually sink or swim on its own merits, but it's true that the "big boy" distribution and advertising surely gives a good work a better shot at longevity.

I indeed wish us all lucrative contracts, big advances, and most of all, excellent writing!

Danny
 

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I self-pubilshed my first book in 1996 (actually formed a small press publisher...same thing). Non-fiction, it has sold reasonably well (10,000 copies or so). I have a platform as a speaker, so people will buy the book when they hear me speak, which is a MUCH easier gig than those of you who write fiction.

I developed another book a couple of years ago, shopped for an agent, got a good one. She sold the book to AMACOM publishing, the publishing arm of the Amreican Management Association.

I completed my editing with them this month. Line editing. I got sent one chapter at a time with ENORMOUS attention to detail. The "message" is mine but with painstaking support by an editor.

After going both routes, I have to say this....I considered myself an author when I was self-published, but it was similar to being club champion at my golf club and considering myself a professional golfer....my peers did not.

I am a member of the Author's Guild due to my freelance columns, not my first book. I have been treated with literal disdain by other authors PRIOR to my acquiring an agent and getting my book published.

I have observed numerous self-publishers, especially non-fiction, and find that many of them wouldn't do it any other way. It is MUCH quicker, MUCH more controlled by the author, and MUCH more profitable if your books sell.

The problem with fiction authors is that, absent a platform, how do readers get your books? This is the PA dilemma and the same one that a good author such as Danny faces. How does a prospective reader find my book?

I found myself at Border's yesterday shopping for a gift. I browsed the "new releases" shelf and picked up a number of books by authors I had never heard of thinking "this looks like a book I could enjoy" (including our own Jenna's book...well done!).

That's the self-publishing problem. Readers decide what is going to be popular. Like it or not, publishers represent what they think readers want and take that to bookstores. Like it or not, agents are the gatekeepers to publishers (most of the time).

It is a frustrating fraternity controlled by a small number that directs a large industry. It is the way it is.

Don't quit your day job. That said, there is paying market for writers. Jenna cracked that code. She is proably THE model to follow for aspiring writers and she lays it out for anyone to follow.
 

Ken Schneider

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Hi, Danny.

I understand the anger that I read in you. Time will tone it down, as it has for me.

Some here weren't, "Over there", and don't know how the ridicual feels. I don't lend any weight to that, and sluff it off.

I don't think that it is conciet to want to write a literary masterpiece, but I'm going to write something in the next few years that makes the mainstream market first.

I haven't studied and put my time in like you and some others here have. If that is your goal, then all here wish you well in that, I promise you.

My goal is to keep learning the craft, and to write a novel that is acceptable in the mainstream market. I can selfpublish till the cows come home and no one will ever see it.

In truth, I'd rather my m.s. collect dust in the drawer than to spend money to have it in book form.

The 1574.00 dollars I paid P.A. for books didn't help me. I gave a lot them away.

No store would stock them, and The fact remains that they didn't start selling until I discounted them to seven bucks.

Maybe it didn't sell because it wasn't any good? Maybe it was price, but how am I to know with P.A.'s take anything policy.

I don't know, because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. How many here want to admit that?

I'm am on the right track now, and learning the craft, and one day one of my books will be published and on the store shelves.

I consider myself a writer, not a printer, selfpublisher, nor a salesman for P.A.
I could make more money selling Avon, or being the fuller brush man than from my misadventure with P.A. I'm not going to stand by and wait for seven years. If P.A. wants to clog up their computer with my slush, and has to pay for extra memory to hold it for the seven years, they can have it and good for them. It wasn't good enough for the real publishing world.I have a better book in me. Do you have a better book in you than Pennies on the Tracks? I damn well bet you do. If P.A. wants to hold onto books for seven years to save face, and to say that thousands aren't bolting from their ranks after learning the truth, let 'um. The vast majority of what they publish is slush.

I, and everyone here has always said that there are good writers over there, and people who push others to write better. The "don't know mentallity" of those who say "I've made it to the big time" and then realize they've done nothing but vanity publish when they buy their own books, is a travesty.

There is nothing I can do for those who are already signed with P.A. But I can sure try to stop those who might. Why let them have the heartache I've had?


If a masterpiece is what you strive for, then by all means I support you in it whether you give a rats *** if I do or not.

I want to have my book published in the mainstream market, and to see it on the shelf if I'm five states from where I live. That is my goal.

If one wants to be, novelist, publisher, marketing director, book binder, salesman, have at it. I'm trying to write a good workable novel for humans to read and enjoy. I don't have the time nor energy to wear that many hats and write a good book.

So, Welcome again, I know you can write, I know you have the knowledge, and as I said in my e-mail to you, you may find some great information here that pushes you over the top, and to the goal you want to achieve.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Danny, while I'm not familiar with your work, just a couple of comments:

Anthologies of short stories by unknown writers are very hard to sell to publishers, and that's mostly because they're very hard to sell to readers. They just lie there on the bookstore shelves. A very thin volume is even harder.

What I'd suggest you do is this: Start selling to mainstream magazines. Based on descriptions of your writing, you might consider The Atlantic Monthly:

Submissions: The Atlantic Monthly considers unsolicited manuscripts, either fiction or nonfiction. A general familiarity with what we have published in the past is the best guide to our needs and preferences. Manuscripts must be type-written, double-spaced, and will not be returned, nor will queries be answered, unless they are accompanied by a postage-paid self-addressed return envelope. At this time, the print magazine does not read submissions sent via fax or e-mail. Atlantic Unbound, The Atlantic's Web-only journal, no longer accepts unsolicited submissions.
There are others with equal or greater prestige.

A reprint anthology, particularly if it contains an award winner, is nowhere near so tough a sale.

Another market is original and original/reprint anthologies put out by name editors. (Susanna Clarke, author of Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, saw her first three short stories published in just such anthologies, before she sold her first novel.)

Here's how you get into those, if you aren't well enough wired into the writing world to hear about them in advance: Go to your bookstore. Find anthologies on the shelves that have stories similar to yours. Write to that editor, asking if he/she is working on a new anthology. Include an SASE. Even for invitational anthologies, that's often enough to get you an invitation.
 
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