The "T" Party.

kuwisdelu said:

WHAT?!??!?? Say it ain't so!!

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As I once explained to my mother, these things happen in even the best of families.

I'm not overly a girly-girl - I'm more a goth/metal emo chick. But one thing I have worried about is when trying to convince doctors to let me have SRS, I guess they'll be more easily swayed by the whole "being a girly-girl" stuff than actually being myself.

I'm not sure I could convince anyone with WORDS why I'm female at heart/mind. It's such an abstract - the only thing 100% feminine that I could rely on is sexual style, but I also worry that trying to convince someone I should have a vagina and have lesbian sex won't be adequate...

It seems like an uphill battle.

From the stories Ive heard, it isn't nearly as much of an uphill battle as it may seem. Find a psych that specializes in trans issues and be honest. Also, if you can get hormones, you'll likely be able to get SRS.

*breathes sigh of relief*

I'm so thankful for finding the QLTBAG room (and more specifically, The T Party thread) because until now I've never actually spoken to anyone who's had SRS, or was even trans in the slightest.

It's so good to be able to get opinions from those who have had experience with this.

Thank you.

Cliff Face said:

I'm so thankful for finding the QLTBAG room (and more specifically, The T Party thread) because until now I've never actually spoken to anyone who's had SRS, or was even trans in the slightest.

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As far as you know. There are more trans and more intersexed people around us than we realize.

Much as you can't reliably spot other sorts of queer folk. There are not-in-the-closet stealth queer folk of all sorts.

Medievalist said:

As far as you know. There are more trans and more intersexed people around us than we realize.

Much as you can't reliably spot other sorts of queer folk. There are not-in-the-closet stealth queer folk of all sorts.

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One of the unfortunate problems with "going stealth" is that it makes one harder to find by other trans people. Trans people who have not yet realized they're trans kinda tend to feel alone and isolated, because "stealth" trans people seem to be more common than people who are out as trans.

Seems like we'd notice, but before we really start thinking about trans stuff a lot, we're probably some of the worst for being oblivious to other people who are trans. (For example, there's this hot woman that's been working at the local grocery store for like two years, and I only realized a few weeks ago that she's probably trans.)

But I do think that most LGBT people have that happen sometimes. The woman I'm dating was talking about coming out to one of her best friends she'd known for years, who was sitting with another woman.

Woman I'm Dating: Also, I'm pretty sure I'm gay. (feels cautious)
Friend: You're shitting me.
WID: Do you have a problem with gay people or something?
Friend: (gestures to woman sitting with her) This is my girlfriend.

I don't entirely understand the purpose of going stealth. Burying your past just seems like a bad idea. And it means breaking contact with most of the people you know. Also, if you've gone from being raised as one gender to successfully transitioning into another, then you should be proud of that.

Shadow Dragon said:

I don't entirely understand the purpose of going stealth. Burying your past just seems like a bad idea. And it means breaking contact with most of the people you know. Also, if you've gone from being raised as one gender to successfully transitioning into another, then you should be proud of that.

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Yeah, no. You're misunderstanding a cultural reference, I think.

Stealth doesn't mean hiding or passing, or being in the closet. There's an old old phrase "stealth dyke, " also, "stealth lesbian." I've not seen a non-Web use of a similar phrase for gay males, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

A "stealth lesbian" is a woman who's lesbian, and out, but is not identified as such even by other lesbians. There are stealth trans folk as well. They aren't passing, or hiding, they just aren't recognized as trans.

Medievalist said:

Yeah, no. You're misunderstanding a cultural reference, I think.

Stealth doesn't mean hiding or passing, or being in the closet. There's an old old phrase "stealth dyke, " also, "stealth lesbian." I've not seen a non-Web use of a similar phrase for gay males, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

A "stealth lesbian" is a woman who's lesbian, and out, but is not identified as such even by other lesbians. There are stealth trans folk as well. They aren't passing, or hiding, they just aren't recognized as trans.

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Unfortunately, usually in the trans usage it sometimes does mean "passing." There are a lot of trans people who go back into the closet after transition, and a few who look down on anyone who doesn't.

However, it can also have the meaning you're talking about. Which, unfortunately, is often called "passing" in the trans community, but that's being thankfully phased out in favor of "blending" because "passing" has so many transphobic implications.

Shadow Dragon said:

I don't entirely understand the purpose of going stealth. Burying your past just seems like a bad idea. And it means breaking contact with most of the people you know. Also, if you've gone from being raised as one gender to successfully transitioning into another, then you should be proud of that.

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Most people who are stealth don't bury their past, they just live their lives and don't mention they're trans unless asked. (And it rarely comes up in every day conversation, anyway.) But there are some people who do bury their past, to the extent of changing their entire names, cutting themselves off from everyone who ever knew them, moving away, and never telling anyone they're trans.

I don't want to do anything like that, and think it would be better if we didn't do that often, but I can't condemn an individual for wanting to do it. I have pretty good circumstances but others don't.

Basically, the trans "community" is really lagging behind the LGB community in terms of being halfway organized, working together for our rights, fighting against discrimination, and having pride (and Pride). Trans people were involved in the Stonewall Rebellion and many do go to Pride events, but we're still kinda getting things together. We're maybe ten or twenty years behind in terms of becoming visible and coming out of the closet, I think.


Here are some specific reasons people might bury their past. Most of these also apply to other QILTBAG people, of course.
==================================================
0) Some trans people simply don't want anyone to know they're QILTBAG in any way. Not exactly selfless and brave, but not my business as long as they don't oppose QILTBAG rights.

1) Hate crimes, especially based on the popular media portrayal of us as deceivers who want to "make people gay." See The Crying Game, Ace Ventura and Naked Gun 33 1/3rd for "humorous" anti-trans portrayals. (The latter two were inspired by the Crying Game.)

Watch "Boys Don't Cry" for a not-so-humorous look at a real trans guy who was brutally murdered. Or just look up the names listed every year for Transgender Remembrance Day, where the people who died that year are mourned.

Hate crimes are not quite as common as it sounds to most transitioning people, and shouldn't be a reason not to transition, but they're something we all need to be aware of.

(Of course, this is still a huge problem for other QILTBAG groups.)

2) Some trans people are disowned by their families and abandoned by their friends, and just want to start completely over.

3) Some trans people are ashamed and have internalized a lot of transphobia.

4) Some trans people get tired of others suddenly changing their attitude toward them, starting to call them by the wrong pronouns, and talking about them behind their back as soon as they find out they're trans.

5) It's legal to refuse to hire or fire someone for being transgender in most places in the United States (and quite a few other places). Even some states that have protections for LGB people don't protect trans people.

Some courts used to assume that LGB protections also covered trans people until Barney Frank explicitly said they didn't in an attempt to get "moderates" to support the 2007 Employment Non-Discrimination Act.

Thankfully, most LGBT groups refused to support it and ENDA 2009 includes trans protection, but it probably will never be implemented any time soon.
=============================================

There's an academic transwoman who has as she said tried to "kill" her previous persona. I knew her as the other person, and so it has felt very much like a death for me, as happy as I am for her now and her new life. And I am happy.

But I did care about the other person too, and can't help but grieve a little.

Medievalist said:

There's an academic transwoman who has as she said tried to "kill" her previous persona. I knew her as the other person, and so it has felt very much like a death for me, as happy as I am for her now and her new life. And I am happy.

But I did care about the other person too, and can't help but grieve a little.

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Grieving kinda seems to be part of transition, even with less drastic transitions. I've grieved when thinking about how my dad feels like he's lost his little boy...(Jesus Christ why did I type that?)...and I know that's kinda how he feels in some ways.

I wish it didn't need to happen at all, but I can't figure out any way to make that work.

Mara said:

Trans people were involved in the Stonewall Rebellion and many do go to Pride events, but we're still kinda getting things together.

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I haven't studied this a lot, but from my brief perusal of Wikipedia and a few other online sources, I sort of got the impression that transfolk started the Stonewall Rebellion. Have I gotten the wrong impression? I mean, there were some gay youths in the first day riot, but I thought it was primarily TG?

Bookewyrme said:

I haven't studied this a lot, but from my brief perusal of Wikipedia and a few other online sources, I sort of got the impression that transfolk started the Stonewall Rebellion. Have I gotten the wrong impression? I mean, there were some gay youths in the first day riot, but I thought it was primarily TG?

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Depends on who you ask, as far as I can tell. Almost certainly, the most notable person who started fighting the police was transgender in some way*, and there were a lot of transgender people there. But there was also a lot of non-transgender gay people involved as well, probably the majority once things got started.

*I've seen several conflicting descriptions of this person and never seen their name or any specific information.

Ah. One of those "everyone who was there remembers something different" things, I guess?

From what I've heard, it was the type of people that did break the gender norms and thus got targeted th most that started it. For example, the plaid wearing, motorcycle riding, butch lesbans and the effemininate, crossdressing gays. Since trangenderism wasn't as well known at the time, it's quite possible that some of those butch lesbians were transmen and some of those crossdressers were transwomen.

Medievalist said:

One of the things I notice with transwomen, often, is that they have . . . I dunno, "inherited," maybe? . . . some of the odd twentieth and twenty-first cultural detritus around the concept of "woman." That is, the idea that X, and Y, and R are "feminine," and "good behaviors," and R and V are absolutely not.

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Uff, and it's not exclusive to transwomen. There are plenty of transmen who go overboard with the 21st century stereotypes of masculinity. It's especially sad since a lot of what the media portrays as "manly" these days is misogynous, arrogant, and involves a narcissistic lack of empathy.

My trans men friends would often insult or blatantly objectify women to distance themselves from them. My FtM friend didn't want to laugh, smile, or cuddle his daughter in public for fear that these would be seen as feminine. I understood him dropping his voice and changing his walk to an exaggerated swagger, but being less affectionate with your kid and not smiling? There's something tragic there.

kuwisdelu said:

If a gay (genetic) man has sex with a gay trans man (without bottom surgery), is there a preference for anal sex, or would they have vaginal intercourse?

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My FtM trans friend (taking T, but without top or bottom surgery) is with a bisexual cisman. Since my trans friend is displeased with his genitals, he insists on anal sex only and doesn't want his chest touched unless he's wearing a binder. Even masturbation is very difficult for him, and showering when he washes his chest.

Shadow Dragon said:

I think there's a couple big reasons why transwomen sometimes act in a hyper-feminine manner.

Firstly, in order to be accepted as a woman in society. A biological woman can wear loose pants, a plaid jacket and walk like a truck driver, yet wouldn't be questioned on her femaleness.

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This very phenomenon contributes to transmen acting hyper-masculine, too. Because ciswomen are allowed to act and dress pretty androgynous, or wear "boy clothes" without question, a feminine-looking transman might feel he has to spit, swear, and act triply tough than he might otherwise just to avoid being mistaken for a ciswoman. (this was the case with my friend, anyway)

Secondly, they go over board simply because they couldn't show femininity before. It's like a shaken can of soda.

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I think it's fair to add insecurity to the list of motives for over-acting the part of your new sex. My FtM friend admitted to being very insecure and over-sensitive during his transition period. He was so sick of being constantly questioned and criticized, he over-acted just to reassure himself and try to convince people who knew him before and still didn't know what pronoun to use.

Ardent Kat said:

This very phenomenon contributes to transmen acting hyper-masculine, too. Because ciswomen are allowed to act and dress pretty androgynous, or wear "boy clothes" without question, a feminine-looking transman might feel he has to spit, swear, and act triply tough than he might otherwise just to avoid being mistaken for a ciswoman. (this was the case with my friend, anyway)

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That's a good point about women being able to get by with some androgyny. I think women who are really butch or otherwise stray too far from the "acceptable" constraints of femininity are looked down on, but to some extent, a woman can wear masculine clothes or be a tomboy and still be read as not only female but also feminine.

The first couple times I wore a tie in public, I expected people to notice it and see it as me being masculine, but I pretty much just got "Oh! That's cute!" or "You're really dressed up today." I don't think I've ever not been read as female, though admittedly I don't bind much (I'm not sure if I'd be read as male if I did, though).

Gender roles and expectations are a pain. One thing that's really hard for me was that I wasn't a "masculine" kid for the most part. I loved playing with dolls, for example. And there was a time when I was entering puberty when I was hyper-feminine, into makeup, and into being "one of the girls" (though, today I can see that as an attempt to fit in. Giving that up was incredibly liberating).

I identify as genderqueer, so in theory, I guess that means I should be able to accept an embrace my "female" traits and interests. Also in theory, I don't feel like what I liked playing with as a child dictates my gender or invalidates my feelings. But in practice, it's very hard for me reconcile.

Hey all! Just wanted to share, the Jewish Journal has a new gay (jewish) blog--my friend just had a piece published there about trans identity and music: http://www.jewishjournal.com/oy_gay...rtists_-_athens_boys_choir_reviewed_20100714/ PS his song is really good too.

There's also a small transgender film festival next month in LA:
http://www.tgfilmfest.com/TG Film Fest
http://www.tgfilmfest.com/Tickets
I went to a TG performing arts thingy last year put on by the same group and it was super awesome (I brought my partner because I wanted her to be, err, more sensitive towards trans issues, so as to be more supportive of our trans brothers and sisters. It worked!)

Anyways, just wanted to share.

How do you take estrogen? Like, I can't swallow pills, so is there an option for a dissolvable tablet or monthly injection or something?

Thanks.

Why can't you swallow pills?

I think they also have a patch and can do injections as an alternative.

A patch sounds good...

I can't swallow pills because... well, I just can't. It might be something to do with my gag reflex, or having a small throat cavity or something... but I try to swallow pills and they just won't go down and I gag.

Julia Serano brought up this subject in her book on transgender women and feminism.

Basically, if we act too feminine, people say we're overcompensating and reinforcing gender norms because we're not really women. If we don't, many of the same people will point to it as proof that we can't be feminine because we're not really women. It's kinda frustrating sometimes.

Ardent Kat said:

I understood him dropping his voice

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Not really related to your overall point, but just wanted to comment on it. Unlike trans women, trans guys usually don't intentionally deepend their voices. It just happens automatically as a result of testosterone changing the voice box. (Happens pretty fast after starting HRT and can't be undone.)

Cliff Face said:

How do you take estrogen? Like, I can't swallow pills, so is there an option for a dissolvable tablet or monthly injection or something?

Thanks.

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Pills, usually. Sometimes injections and/or patches and/or sublingual pills (dissolve under tongue) are available, but you can't count on them being available everywhere.

You'll definitely have to take pills for spironolactane, as far as I know.

What's spironolactane?

Never heard of it before.