Lemony Snicket makes a racist ass out of himself at the National Book Awards

Well, there's dumb and then there's Handler.

It really doesn't matter if he and the author had somehow worked this out between them before the show. It doesn't matter if he didn't 'mean' it. The point is, he said it and perhaps didn't (or did) realize how utterly friggin' dumb and racist the remark was.

If Woodson was cool with it, then fine. That's her right to BE cool with dumbass jokes like this, but quite frankly, not only was inappropriate under any circumstances, it just reinforced the stereotype of white writers ragging on black people because of their color. Sorry, the ol' fried chicken and watermelong jokes went out of vogue yonks back...what in the name of decency was this moron thinking?

jeffo20 said:

The moment he uttered that 'joke' in front of an audience, it ceased to be 'between friends.'

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Precisely. Unless someone wishes to claim that Mr. Handler is friends with every single black author who might be influenced by the National Book Award, the between-friends thing is a red herring.

The point of awards isn't just to make the recipient feel good, it's to say "This, here, is what we value, this is what we're holding up as the best, this is what you can aspire to achieve." Otherwise we wouldn't bother with public award ceremonies, we'd just stuff the trophies in the mail.

The award winner might have laughed uproariously at the joke, I don't know, but she is not the sole audience member.

(Tangential rant--god, I hate "edgy" award MC's. Go be edgy in your own work--award shows aren't about you. Trying to prove how daring you are and how close you can cut the line on a night that belongs to other people is pure selfishness. It ought to be about the people getting the awards, not scoring points for yourself. Save your edgy speech for when you win the award and then you can deliver it and the only person who you'll distract from if you fail is you.) (/rant)

franky_s said:

I had to read the links to understand the watermelon thing. And now you're going to have to explain this one to me as well. I don't know what 'probable cause' means or why it's racist.

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Forgive me if I repeat things you know perfectly well already--going from the ground up here, and anyone else, feel free to correct me.

"Probable cause" is a legal term. The police are allowed to stop you if they have probable cause to believe that you are engaged in illegal activity.

In the US, people of color are stopped by police at numbers ridiculously higher than white people, and incarcerated at much higher numbers as well. Hundreds of police departments have been investigated for racial profiling, and they mostly all say "we stopped person x because we had probable cause." (I am simplifying greatly, but you get the gist.)

This sort of profiling is illegal, which does nothing to keep it from happening, because for a certain sort of person, being black is probable cause to believe you're doing something wrong.

Reminding a couple of poets, on the eve of a great triumph, that if they walk out on the street they're twenty times more likely to be stopped because of their skin color...

Well, it's pretty damn crass, let's say that much.

Thanks RedWombat. I have read about the profiling issue but didn't know about the probable cause link.

And, ew. This is the kind of crap I'd expect to hear from a 14 year old internet troll, not an adult, (professional?) author.

franky_s said:

I had to read the links to understand the watermelon thing. And now you're going to have to explain this one to me as well. I don't know what 'probable cause' means or why it's racist.

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In the U.S., "probable cause" means "a reasonable suspicion of illegal activity." When someone says that having two black nominees in the poetry category was "probable cause," he's in essence saying because the nominees are black, they're probably criminals. There is no reading of the "joke" that is not offensive. (Again, I'm relying on reports that he said this.)

graygrammar said:

The reply is meant to point out that a society that provides a racist man with that much power, provides a racist man with that much voice (as a best-selling author of children's literature--children's literature), and makes that racist man the host of a literary awards ceremony is an inherently racist society. The blogger is saying that this incident is symptomatic, just as a malignant tumor is symptomatic of cancer.

I loved the Lemony Snicket books as a kid, but I recently spotted a transmisogynistic joke in his Unauthorized Autobiography, so I'm really not surprised that he's proving himself to be a jerk.

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I think the only thing that his success says about society is that well written childrens' books sell well.
If his books were based in his evidently moronic politics, then I'd see your point, but they're not.

It's a bit like saying "JK Rowling is on the left, and she's successful, therefore society is inherently left wing." It just doesn't make sense.

graygrammar said:

The reply is meant to point out that a society that provides a racist man with that much power, provides a racist man with that much voice (as a best-selling author of children's literature--children's literature), and makes that racist man the host of a literary awards ceremony is an inherently racist society.

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What.

No, a society is racist because it actively or passively keeps people from specific races down, not because it let people who happen to be hold racist views be succesful.


I'm pretty sure that in a less racist society, Snicket would still be a successful children's book author —he would be more cautious about not letting slip in public what he really thinks, but that would not change what he really thinks.

graygrammar said:

The reply is meant to point out that a society that provides a racist man with that much power, provides a racist man with that much voice (as a best-selling author of children's literature--children's literature), and makes that racist man the host of a literary awards ceremony is an inherently racist society. The blogger is saying that this incident is symptomatic, just as a malignant tumor is symptomatic of cancer.

I loved the Lemony Snicket books as a kid, but I recently spotted a transmisogynistic joke in his Unauthorized Autobiography, so I'm really not surprised that he's proving himself to be a jerk.

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Society? Just those responsible for making him host, amounting to a few. And those few most likely didn't know he was going to come out and say something like this. So again, condemn Snicket. Not society. That's a sweeping generalization, imo.

As declared in my first post, the US may be as you say. But that conclusion can't be drawn from this single incident, as the blogger is apparently implying. That's all I'm saying.

"Society" is still a broad term. No one who actively participates on this board is racist as far as I know. And no one whom I associate with in everyday life is. When I encounter someone who says something they shouldn't I usually express my feelings on the issue and let them know I don't like such stuff. So maybe instead of society, "the majority" instead. Honestly, I doubt even that. Racists are in the minority, at least these days, which is something to celebrate and be proud of. As to wiping racism out, completely, that sadly may not be possible. My opinion of course.

ps Last but not least I'd argue for a bit of leeway, especially for a fellow writer. Heck, we all say stuff we regret from time to time. Maybe not like this, but other stuff.

Ken said:

Society? Just those responsible for making him host, amounting to a few. And those few most likely didn't know he was going to come out and say something like this. So again, condemn Snicket. Not society. That's a sweeping generalization, imo.

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Ken, I'm going to be blunt. Yes, American society is still pretty damn racists as a whole. It's in the way that a black person and a white person can go into a store and no matter how nice the black persons clothing, they're invariably the one followed or kept an eye on. They could be wearing an obviously expensive business suit straight from the office, and it wouldn't matter. In the fact that black people are much more likely to get pulled over for just driving a decent vehicle. Where people are always surprised my aunt has her damn doctorate because she is not only black but a woman. Where people get surprised that my cousin is just as educated as her mother, because a highly educated black woman is a fluke.

Ken said:

"Society" is still a broad term. No one who actively participates on this board is racist as far as I know.

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Hi, Ken! I'm RedWombat, I actively participate in these boards, and I benefit from systemic racism all the damn time.

If I go into a high end store looking scruffy, I am assumed to be eccentric, not a shoplifter. If I want a home loan with my weird erratic income, I get no additional scrutiny 'cos I'm white. I don't have worry about the water treatment plant being dumped in my neighborhood because there's a poor Latino neighborhood a few miles away (and that example is ripped directly from the headlines a few year back.) When I opt for a pat-down at the airport, it is assumed that I am pregnant or have a phobia, poor dear, not that I have something to hide. Cops smile at me on the street corner. I get off with warnings. If someone breaks into the house, I can call the sheriff in absolute certainty that no one will question who's fault it was--hell, in this state, I could shoot a man on the porch and be lauded as a valiant home defender! Affluent schools ask me to visit them to talk to kids. I get to be on panels about things like social media, not always on the same minority-writers-in-SF slot.

Voting hours cater to my schedule and my ID is good anywhere and never given a jot of extra scrutiny.

If I run on the street, I am a jogger, not fleeing the scene of the crime.

I have never in my life been told I'm "one of the good ones."

And the horrible beauty of this arrangement is that I can get all these marvelous benefits without having to entertain any thoughts about racism, with a MLK magnet on the fridge, and believing truly in my heart that we are all equal.

I try very hard not to be a racist. I succeed--I hope--more often than I fail. But if you think I'm not benefiting from institutional racism, then let me tell you, I majorly am.

Some good has come of this, at least - after an initial apology which was underwhelming, to say the least, Handler has followed with a sincere-sounding one, a donation of $10k to the We Need Diverse Books Indiegogo, and a pledge to match donations over next 24 hours up to $100k.

Obviously, this doesn't change the stupidity of his racist remarks in the first place, but I'm pleased he seems to have realised just why they were wrong, and is taking steps to try and make up for them.

RedWombat said:

I try very hard not to be a racist. I succeed--I hope--more often than I fail. But if you think I'm not benefiting from institutional racism, then let me tell you, I majorly am.

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Where did he imply he was thinking such a thing?

He said " No one who actively participates on this board is racist as far as I know."

Benefiting from the flaws of the society you happen to live in because you have a certain skin color is one thing. But have you ever tried to push these benefits? Have you ever commited some wrongdoing with the intent of getting away with it because you are white and/or because your victim was black? Have you ever intentionally emphatised your whiteness in order to get something that you should not normally be able to get? Have you ever used the color of your skin to get away from legal duties or obligations?

If no, then you are probably not racist, and his point stands. You don't wrong others just by existing just because you happen to be in a group that isn't persecuted.

TheNighSwan said:

Have you ever commited some wrongdoing with the intent of getting away with it because you are white

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Yes. Next question?

Yes, I would say that benefitting from institutionalized racism is not the same as being racist. I mean how is someone supposed to prevent cops from seeing them as an innocent jogger while jogging? White people are not capable of mind control on and individual level, as far as I am aware...

Ken said:

As declared in my first post, the US may be as you say. But that conclusion can't be drawn from this single incident, as the blogger is apparently implying. That's all I'm saying.

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No one is drawing conclusions from this single incident. This single incident is part of an enormous bulk of incidents perpetuated by both society as a whole (Laws limiting participation in voting by minorities, harsher penalties for minorities than whites for the same crime, worse schools in minority neighborhoods, fewer minorities hired and promoted over equally or even lesser qualified whites, minorities being arrested in larger percentages than whites for the same actions...the list goes on and on) and by individuals within that society.

What Handler said was racist and utterly inappropriate in any venue, much less at an event where Woodson just received an award for her writing. That's right up there with Ellison assaulting the Guest of Honor on stage at the Hugos (in our also deeply sexist society).

God forbid a Black woman dare to receive an award without some asshat reminding her she's only there on sufferance. No, Handler had to make absolutely sure Woodson knew just how lowly she is and keep her in her place.

virtue_summer said:

Here's what gets me. Apparently he added this, taken from the Salon article:
So he knew it wasn't cool. I just -- That doesn't make any sense to me. If you know what you're saying isn't cool, and you also know it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, then why say it? Geez.

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Because sometimes the mouth is faster on the draw than the brain. Who hasn't said something incredibly stupid without thinking, particularly if it's for a laugh?

ULTRAGOTHA said:

No one is drawing conclusions from this single incident. This single incident is part of an enormous bulk of incidents perpetuated by both society as a whole (Laws limiting participation in voting by minorities, harsher penalties for minorities than whites for the same crime, worse schools in minority neighborhoods, fewer minorities hired and promoted over equally or even lesser qualified whites, minorities being arrested in larger percentages than whites for the same actions...the list goes on and on) and by individuals within that society.



G

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You don't really believe all this, do you? It's all been completely disproved.

Jamesaritchie said:

Because sometimes the mouth is faster on the draw than the brain. Who hasn't said something incredibly stupid without thinking, particularly if it's for a laugh?

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But that's just the point. He'd brought it up jokingly with Woodson earlier, from his description of her reaction, she was not amused. He had lots of time between that incident and the telling of the "joke" on stage to reconsider, yet he still said it.

This is not an off-the-cuff remark. It was planned. After he planned it, there were red flags, indicating it might be a bad idea, but he went ahead with it anyhow, because he apparently thought he knew better than she did about what was appropriate and what was funny.

It wasn't even the ONLY racist thing he said that night. He said he hoped to win the Coretta Scott King award one day (reserved for black writers, or books with predominantly black characters (which he's never written)). And there is a report he referred to two black poets as "Probable Cause".

That's a pattern and not an accident.

He's apologized for one comment and on the second try he actually managed to make it a real apology. I think he needs to apologize for the other comments and for the pattern of behavior.

And for those wondering "how bad is racism in America"?

A fire chief refused to help a black family involved in a car accident a couple of days ago. He had his men drive the white guy in the other car to the hospital and pick him up afterwards, but reportedly said, “We ain’t taking no n–gers here.”

When questioned about it by an Asian American reporter, he said, "“Do you understand English, darling? Do you understand English?”

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/20/ken...affic_accident_we_aint_taking_no_n_gers_here/

These attitudes are prevalent throughout the States in one region (I think it was Ferguson actually) 90% of the stop and frisks are done on blacks, even though they are only 1/3 of the population AND internal police reporting shows that the few stop and frisks they do on whites are over 10x more likely to find illegal substances.

Jamesaritchie said:

You don't really believe all this, do you? It's all been completely disproved.

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All of it? Really? Completely? Please expound.

Drachen Jager said:

It wasn't even the ONLY racist thing he said that night. He said he hoped to win the Coretta Scott King award one day (reserved for black writers, or books with predominantly black characters (which he's never written)). And there is a report he referred to two black poets as "Probable Cause".

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Hmm. The Coretta Scott King award remark makes me wonder. Total speculation, obviously, but could the pattern be an example of supposing that minority writers have an unfair advantage re awards, because the award givers want to look PC? Hence Handler wanted to underline the fact that, HEY, these winners/nominees are MINORITIES, surprise, surprise? Again, total speculation, but....

Over the years I have heard many obnoxious comments about award winners or just people who get publishing deals, implying or flat out stating that the person wouldn't have gotten the award or deal except that she was a minority of whatever sort.