50 Shades of Grey?

fireluxlou

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What??? Why was she banned lol!

She was banned because of fanfiction.net policy on sexually explicit content. They've recently reinforced the rule, it's not a new rule.

I agree there was not very much sex at all. I am really surprised that women like (love?) this book. Of course what I don't understand about women could fill an ocean.:D

Shane D

Umm yea no. There's an obvious reason why you don't understand women because you don't think very highly of us anyway. I don't get why you are surprised either. It's all in your word choice.

A lot of that was just in the first 350 pages of the first book. You are wasting your words here. These two ladies love this author/stories.
And one has a Masters degree.:D

I thought it was boring, she was an idiot and he was an a-hole. But then I don't like romance books so i might have missed the whole "concept".

Shane D

Umm yea no again. Don't try and be all high and mighty and like you are superior because you're a man and 'don't understand' women's things. It's so patronising.

Trying to belittle us because we are silly wimminz who read romance and sex. Romance is always belittled because its dominated by women. I get really irritated when men degrade genres that focus on women or women authors for not being 'high literary' or 'concept' because of romance and sex and it focusing on women's issues.

This sexism is frustrating and so old you'd have thought men would have learnt to at least respect women in some sort of degree instead of degrading us for being women, for acting like women, for having genres that we can dominate, for liking love stories or - shock horror - enjoying sex. Pfft.
 
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Ann_Mayburn

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I find it ironic how people get their panties in such a huge wad over this book, esp other romance/erotica authors. As with anything else, this book is a matter of taste and in matters of taste you can't tell one person they're wrong for liking it. That's like saying I love rocky road ice cream and hate rainbow sherbert so anyone that likes rainbow sherbert is a moron/tasteless/gullible/likes to be abused/etc. ;)

I've read the books and they weren't bad. I've read better and worse, but the woman told a story that really connected with a lot, something I believe all authors strive to do. As far as the book being good or bad for women...well shit it's fiction. If a woman bases how she reacts to half of the worlds population based on one book then there has been some major failure along the way in her upbringing.

I'm actually glad this book, terrible or awesome as it may be, was written. It exposed a great deal of people to the world of steamy romance and I believe led to both an uptick in sales, and a willingness to talk about 'such things' in public. If anything I believe the book was more empowering to the average(whatever that is) reader than damaging. Yes there was some stupid ass shit that happened. Yes I would have told Christian Grey to go fuck himself and/or had his ass strapped to the paddling bench, but here's the thing....it's not real. It's fiction, a fantasy, and I would no more lose sleep over it than I would lose sleep over fear of an uptick in zoo rapes due to the increasing demand for furry erotica.

;)
 

Katie Elle

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Christian's refusing a relationship with a woman unless it's BDSM may not be a very admirable trait in a man, but stories need character conflict and character flaws, and that is his issue in the beginning, and in fact they both do change their mindsets and grow as characters.

Actually, I think the flaw here is that he doesn't just outright avoid a romance with her. I'm kind of with Dan Savage, if something sexual is really that important, and it clearly is with Grey, don't get involved with people who aren't going to do it.

People get their panties in a twist because EL James is wearing a moneyhat :)
 

gingerwoman

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Actually, I think the flaw here is that he doesn't just outright avoid a romance with her. I'm kind of with Dan Savage, if something sexual is really that important, and it clearly is with Grey, don't get involved with people who aren't going to do it.

People get their panties in a twist because EL James is wearing a moneyhat :)
Oh I agree totally it makes no sense that he just has to have Ana even though she's not into BD/SM when BD/SM is the only kind of relationship he wants.
It's borderline unethical and creepy and not the kind of thing a sensible dom would do (he'd look for someone into it.) But then again how often do people in real life choose the sensible path.
These are the traits she's chosen for her characters to make conflict and a dramatic story plus she's tapping into billionaire, bad-boy, dominant, Cinderella a bunch of money making romance tropes with the whole concept.
 

gingerwoman

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I find it ironic how people get their panties in such a huge wad over this book, esp other romance/erotica authors. As with anything else, this book is a matter of taste and in matters of taste you can't tell one person they're wrong for liking it. That's like saying I love rocky road ice cream and hate rainbow sherbert so anyone that likes rainbow sherbert is a moron/tasteless/gullible/likes to be abused/etc. ;)

I've read the books and they weren't bad. I've read better and worse, but the woman told a story that really connected with a lot, something I believe all authors strive to do. As far as the book being good or bad for women...well shit it's fiction. If a woman bases how she reacts to half of the worlds population based on one book then there has been some major failure along the way in her upbringing.

I'm actually glad this book, terrible or awesome as it may be, was written. It exposed a great deal of people to the world of steamy romance and I believe led to both an uptick in sales, and a willingness to talk about 'such things' in public. If anything I believe the book was more empowering to the average(whatever that is) reader than damaging. Yes there was some stupid ass shit that happened.
;)

Well there you've said everything I meant only much more clearly I suppose. I'll make things worse by admitting if I were Ana I probably would have been weaker than her in that I never would have given him his car and fancy tech gadgets back. :Shrug:
 

Calliea

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I was going to read it after I heard about the big fuss, but before I got my hands on it I've heard a ton of unfavorable reviews that made me decide against it.

What makes me wonder is how in the world did that get published? With the market being as tight and hard to get into as it is, a novel that is badly written and hardly, I guess I could say mature (in a way of psychological truths and lack of naivety) gets out.

And then makes millions.

From what I've heard it's not even controversial or really spicy or anything, it's something that could make a young girl blush, but not become so widely known for what it got known for.

A mystery. Then again so i nicki Minaj and Twilight (to me, no offense Twilight and Nicki fans :) ).
 

Ann_Mayburn

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I wouldn't go as far to say that it isn't spicy. There are for sure graphic scenes that would make traditional romance readers blush. If you have a friend that has a copy, borrow it and make your own opinion. Just make sure you read the whole series as the first book read alone really doesn't give you a complete feel for the character growth...or lack there of depending on your point of view. ;)
 

gingerwoman

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I was going to read it after I heard about the big fuss, but before I got my hands on it I've heard a ton of unfavorable reviews that made me decide against it.

What makes me wonder is how in the world did that get published? With the market being as tight and hard to get into as it is, a novel that is badly written and hardly, I guess I could say mature (in a way of psychological truths and lack of naivety) gets out.

And then makes millions.

From what I've heard it's not even controversial or really spicy or anything, it's something that could make a young girl blush, but not become so widely known for what it got known for.

A mystery. Then again so i nicki Minaj and Twilight (to me, no offense Twilight and Nicki fans :) ).
See that's what I thought from all the unfavourable reviews I thought I'd HATE it and probably read half a chapter and return it to the library which I actually do with a LOT of books because I'm so ADHD and if there isn't enough suspense I get bored and want to read something else. But I read the whole thing so it had something going for it. lol I wanted to know what the hell happened in Christian's childhood that kept me reading.
Apart from the first paragraph which is amazingly terrible compared to the rest of the novel and apart from the fact that it is ridiculously British in tone for something that is supposed to be set in Washington Ido not agree that it's that badly written. It visceral and the characters engage in a cute way in their dialogue and emails, and it had enough suspense to hold my ADHD attention to the end of the first book.
For people used to reading adult books the narration is more like a fun teenager's book so that may be off putting to some people, but like Katie said a lot of the intensity of the criticism may come from the fact this women became a millionaire over night.
This book is also constantly being compared in the writing community to erotic romances that have a much more sophisticated style of language and more mature sophisticated heroines. But the thing is....not to knock the more sophisticated tone of other BD/SM erotic reads, but this book has a fun YA type narration that they do not have, that I suspect just appealed to a wider section of the population. It's easy reading but that does not = horrendous IMO.
 
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gingerwoman

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I was going to read it after I heard about the big fuss, but before I got my hands on it I've heard a ton of unfavorable reviews that made me decide against it.

What makes me wonder is how in the world did that get published? With the market being as tight and hard to get into as it is, a novel that is badly written and hardly, I guess I could say mature (in a way of psychological truths and lack of naivety) gets out.

And then makes millions.

From what I've heard it's not even controversial or really spicy or anything, it's something that could make a young girl blush, but not become so widely known for what it got known for.

A mystery. Then again so i nicki Minaj and Twilight (to me, no offense Twilight and Nicki fans :) ).
I got bored reading Twilight and gave it away to a 12 year old half way through reading it. lol (no offense Twilight fans.) I LOVE me some Harry Potter though.
In a way this book can be lumped in with them YA style although it's really NA and although supposedly set in the real world it's SUCH a make believe Cinderella fairy tale world really. He's what a trillionaire?
 

Katie Elle

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What makes me wonder is how in the world did that get published? With the market being as tight and hard to get into as it is, a novel that is badly written and hardly, I guess I could say mature (in a way of psychological truths and lack of naivety) gets out.

It was effectively "self-published."
 

Torgo

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I was going to read it after I heard about the big fuss, but before I got my hands on it I've heard a ton of unfavorable reviews that made me decide against it.

What makes me wonder is how in the world did that get published? With the market being as tight and hard to get into as it is, a novel that is badly written and hardly, I guess I could say mature (in a way of psychological truths and lack of naivety) gets out.

And then makes millions.

From what I've heard it's not even controversial or really spicy or anything, it's something that could make a young girl blush, but not become so widely known for what it got known for.

A mystery. Then again so i nicki Minaj and Twilight (to me, no offense Twilight and Nicki fans :) ).

Well, it happened like this. It was originally published on a fanfic forum, and people there kept telling EL James she should publish it properly. So she self-published, in print and ebook, and without anything you could describe as marketing, it went - in a literary sense - viral. Word of mouth grew it beyond the initial online community that had incubated it, and because that community was widely distributed across the globe, it popped up in all sorts of places. After a while, the company doing her print edition could no longer keep up with demand, and an editor at Vintage in New York - a literary imprint - heard a group of mums talking about it at the school gates where she was waiting to pick up her kids.

Vintage picked it up in the States, did relatively little to it - why mess with success? - but ramped up the distribution and marketed it very effectively. Printers were running out of ink and paper. I heard a lumber mill in Canada took a bunch of laid-off workers back on, such was the demand.

So really the story of Fifty Shades' success is that El James wrote a book that her friends really, really liked, and they told all their friends, and they really like it and told their friends, and at some juncture there was a tipping point where people felt they ought to read it because they might be missing out, and then boom - 50 million copies sold. I find it fascinating.
 

Channy

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A lot of that was just in the first 350 pages of the first book. You are wasting your words here. These two ladies love this author/stories.
And one has a Masters degree.

I thought it was boring, she was an idiot and he was an a-hole. But then I don't like romance books so i might have missed the whole "concept".

xD Hah, I noticed. Thanks for reminding me.. again!

But I do so enjoy a healthy debate. :3

No I said "a lot of this stuff" hasn't come up yet. Some of it on the other hand has happened. The Joss stuff was a fraction too controlling and the stalking stuff where he tracks down that she's at the night club etc... is definitely wrong outside of fantasy.

Some?

Jealousy and possessiveness - Chapter 4 and 14
(And pretty much the entirity of the second book)

"I tracked your cell phone Anastasia."
"And this is my brother, Ethan Kavanagh." says Kate to Christian.
Christian turns his arctic glare on Ethan, who still has one arm around me.

"Mr. Kavanagh."

They shake hands. Christian holds his hand out to me.

"Ana, baby," he murmurs, and I nearly expire at the endearment.

I walk out of Ethan's grasp, while Christian smiles icily at him, and I take my place at his side. Kate grins at me. She knows exactly what she's doing, the vixen!

Sexual Violence - Chapter 26


"I am doing this so that you remember not to run from me, and as exciting as it is, I never want you to run from me," he whispers.
And the irony is not lost on me. I was running to avoid this. If he'd opened his arms, I'd run to him, not away from him.
I close my eyes, bracing myself for the blow. It comes hard, snapping across my backside, and the bit of the belt is everything I feared. I cry out involuntarily, and take a huge gulp of air.
"Don't touch me!" I hiss. I straighten and stare at him, and he's watching me as if I might bolt, gray eyes wide, bemused. I dash the tears angrily out of my eyes with the backs of my hands, glaring at him.

"This is what you really like? Me, like this?" I use the sleeve of the bathrobe to wipe my nose.

He gazes at me warily.

"Well, you are one fucked-up son of a bitch."
What was I thinking? Why did I let him do that to me? I wanted the dark, to explore how bad it could be - but it's too dark for me. I cannot do this. Yet, this is what he does, this how he gets his kicks.

What a monumental wake-up call. And to be fair to him, he warned me and warned me, time and again. He's not normal. He has needs that I cannot fulfill. I realize that now.

Verbal abuse and disrespectful behavior in front of others - Chapter 24


"Can I treat you?" I ask Christian.

"Treat me how?"

"Pay for this meal."

Christian snorts.

"I don't think so," he scoffs.

"Please. I want to."

He frowns at me.

"Are you trying to completely emasculate me?"

Not listening or responding when you talk



  • He says he'll give her space.. so he flies to Georgia.
  • He says he won't interfere with her work, so he buys the company.
  • He says he trusts her, so he has her followed around at work.

Unpredictable temper - Chapter 19 and 20


"What are you two whispering about?" Kate interjects.

I flush, and Christian glares at her in a butt-out-of-this-Kavanagh kind of way - even Kate wilts under his stare.

"Just about my trip to Georgia," I say sweetly, hoping to diffuse their mutual hostility.

Kate smiles, a wicked gleam in her eye.

"How was Jose when you went to the bar with him on Friday?" Holy fuck, Kate. I widen my eyes at her. What is she doing? She widens her eyes back at me, and I realize she's trying to make Christian jealous. How little she knows. I thought I'd got away with this.

"He was fine," I murmur.

Christian leans over. "Palm-twitchingly mad," he whispers. "Especially now." His tone is quiet and deadly.
I am mesmerized... watching him like one would watch a rare and dangerous predator, waiting for him to strike. His breathing is harsh but then he's just carried me across the lawn and up a flight of stairs. Gray eyes blaze with anger, need, and pure unadulterated lust. Holy shit. I could spontaneously combust from his look alone..

"Please don't hit me," I whisper, pleading
Book deux said:
Oh, shit. "Don't do anything stupid, please," I beg.

"STUPID!" he explodes. "I told you to use your fucking BlackBerry. Don't talk to me about stupid. Get in the motherfucking car, Anastasia - NOW!" he snarls, and a frisson of fear runs through me. This is Very Angry Christian. I've not seen him this mad before. He's barely holding on to his self-control.

Damaging or destroying your possessions -

She seemingly adored her car, Wanda, and what does he do? He gets rid of that rusty bucket of bolts and buys her something new and shiny. But it's not like this is something special just for her, nah, because he buys all his subs an Audi. So let's destroy precious memories and items you own and assimilate you into the role I want you be.

Controlling where you go and who you see -

Controlling here is probably mirrored with his ability to follow her wherever she goes, and disapproving of who she sees. This also goes hand in hand with his inability to listen.

  • The bar where she's out with friends
  • Georgia to see her mother (when she needed space to think)
  • Jose's art gallery
  • Having Ethan or Jose stay at her place with her
  • Won't let her go to New York
  • Having his personal gynocologist examine her
  • When Christian wanted her to work for him and she said no, he solved that problem by buying her now work place
However as I recall when he "hit" her she demanded repeatedly that he show her the worst of BD/SM that he could give to her. She demanded that he give it to her as hard as possible, and then she was horrified when he hit her too hard. So that's not the same as him randomly hitting her as abuse. She agreed to engage in a BD/SM scene with him and urged him to do his worst. (And yes I see how that offends some people in the BD/SM lifestyle but....it's a story. )

Nope. When he 'hit' her, he was chasing her around the kitchen in Chap 26, which she took as a game and she ran.

"I don't. That's the point. I feel about punishment the way you feel about me touching you." His entire demeanor changes in a nanosecond. Gone is playful Christian, and he stands staring at me as if I'd slapped him. He's ashen.

"That's how you feel?" he whispers.

Those four words, and the way he utters them, speaks volumes.
Oh no.They tell me so much more about him and how he feels. They tell me about his fear and loathing.
Then this happens:

"I do it for you, Christian, because you need it. I don't. You didn't hurt me last night. That was in a different context, and I can rationalize that internally, and I trust you. But when you want to punish me, I worry that you'll hurt me." His gray eyes blaze like a turbulent storm. Time moves, and expands and slips away before he answers softly.

"I want to hurt you. But not beyond anything that you couldn't take."
Fuck!

"Why?"

He runs his hand through his hair, and he shrugs.

"I just need it." He pauses, gazing at me with anguish, and he closes his eyes and shakes his head. "I can't tell you," he whispers.
He doesn't WANT to hurt her beyond anything she can't take, yet he does. As soon as he does, she runs for the hills. It's too much, and a spanking with a belt is no laughing matter, that mother fucking hurts. Ana agrees.

"Five." My voice is more a choked, strangled sob, and in this moment, I think I hate him.
She didn't ask to be spanked, she more or less agreed because his needs are more important than her own (ain't that healthy). She agrees to try it out because he needs it, she didn't full out demand to be shown this. She realizes this is the worst that she cannot endure, but she didn't beg for it.

I don't agree that he constantly dismisses her concerns about engaging in a BD/SM relationship. He repeatedly says to her she doesn't have to do it, and he doesn't want to force her into it, but if she wants to be his girlfriend that's how he is and what he does. He's very clear with her that she can walk away any time and as far as her being weak....you know she does walk away. She gives back all his gifts and walks and she doesn't agree to be part of any kind of relationship again until he agrees to make some changes for her. So people constantly painting her as 100% weak is inaccurate.
She was emotionally and mentally crippled for the week that they broke up.. One week. Bella was a shell of a woman for months, but Ana? No, she can't live on for one week and wants to off herself. That's pretty weak.

Christian's refusing a relationship with a woman unless it's BDSM may not be a very admirable trait in a man, but stories need character conflict and character flaws, and that is his issue in the beginning, and in fact they both do change their mindsets and grow as characters.

The guy has needs (as Ana has told us numerous times), I'm not faulting him for that. Different strokes for different folks.

It's not like I don't see where Christian was an asshole, but I haven't finished the three books to see if he redeems himself and there are many places in the story where he checks to make sure she is OK with things and doesn't force things on her so implying that he doesn't is misreading. Also it's not like EL James failed to explain why he behaves the way he does. He has very significant issues in his past that cause him to be "50 shades of fucked up". So the author has not failed to give a reason for her protagonist's unpleasant side. And yet painting the character as being wholly controlling is inaccurate as he repeatedly gives Ana outs if she doesn't want to deal with his neuroses.

That's actually really unfair to both people with messed up pasts and people into BDSM. An assumption that "Oh, my mom's pimp used to beat the shit out of me, so now I like to prey on women who look like her and exact my revenge" is pretty fucked up. But I don't see how that should fit into a BDSM lifestyle, it completely whitewashes the past by attempting to justify that he's into fucked up shit because he himself is fucked up. No, 95% of the population that's fucked up are just fucked up. People who are into BDSM more or less likely have a kink for it. Probably not because their mom's pimp used to put out cigarettes on their chest.

As for when he starts making it so she can't go out alone that is explained by the fact he's protecting her from his violent ex-girlfriend who wants to harm her. So it's not like it is is just in there and not explained and it's a common device in romance novels so the hero and heroine are forced into artificial close proximity to make the romance work.

HAH. They did a pretty good job of protecting her when she walks into the apartment ALONE later on (while everyone conveniently waits outside) before the place had been thoroughly checked, and comes across one sad little girl holding a gun in her room. Yah, that protection thing is working out great for everybody.

lol I wanted to know what the hell happened in Christian's childhood that kept me reading.

I could read the entire book (and arguably it's sequels too) enjoyably, if we had more back story on Christian, his relationship with Mrs Robinson, and his childhood. Instead, we have pages of Ana debating whether or not she loves this man, telling her to eat, constantly reminding us how skinny, strong, beautiful and smart she is (Ana=/=Bella, she became a pile of mush after leaving her boyfriend of 3 weeks, she's the cardboard cut out of a girl with anorexia so yeah, she's beautiful, and I've yet to see her do a single smart thing throughout the series. When there is a motherfucking stalker standing at the edge of her bed ready to kill her, does she call the police or tell Christian? No, she just brushes it off.). But I think her entire terrible character can be summed up in one line:

Fifty Shades Darker: Chap 5 said:
Oh, someone else has problems. I'm not the only one.

Apart from the first paragraph which is amazingly terrible compared to the rest of the novel and apart from the fact that it is ridiculously British in tone for something that is supposed to be set in Washington I really just do not agree that it's that badly written.

It being badly written probably has a lot to do with that it went straight to publishing. It didn't go through a copy editor. If it did, this wouldn't happen in Chapter 25:

He's wearing a gray suit with the jacket undone, and he's running his hand through his hair, he's. H agitated, tense even. Oh no - what's wrong? Agitated or not, he's still beyond beautiful.
or this

"But we won't have any sort of relationship?" I ask.

"No."

"Why?"

"This is the only sort of relationship I'm interesting in."
It's pretty terrible writing all throughout, not just the first paragraph which breaks rule number 1 of writing a novel.

For people used to reading adult books the narration is more like a fun teenager's book so that may be off putting to some people, but like Katie said a lot of the intensity of the criticism may come from the fact this women became a millionaire over night.

My main gripe with it is that she did it with a fanfic. For many years there was an unspoken law about not making a profit by ripping someone else’s work. And there is NO denying that this wasn't Twilight. Kate is just as gorgeous as Rosalie. Mia has two lines of description because that's all you needed when you know she's supposed to be Alice. Christian's hair is the same golden copper as his Edwardian counterpart, and Ana is just as boring, dull, skinny, mousy brown and probably expressionless as Bella.

If she had CREATED her own world and characters for which they exist, not a problem. I never once hated on JK Rowling, Suzanne Collins or even Stephanie Meyer for than matter because they made millions of dollars. I really didn't like Twilight, but I've seen the movies more than a handful of times (moreso for the hottie without his shirt on). But cashing in on a project for your own personal enjoyment, and marketing it as your own... that shit don't fly with me, son.
 
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gingerwoman

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My main gripe with it is that she did it with a fanfic. For many years there was an unspoken law about not making a profit by ripping someone else’s work.
. But cashing in on a project for your own personal enjoyment, and marketing it as your own... that shit don't fly with me, son.
You can't copyright ideas.
 

Katie Elle

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You can't copyright ideas.

They don't mean legally. The fanfic community has/had a community standards thing that it was for love of the franchise, not to make money off of.

Of course, people always made money off of it, but that was limited to maybe paying for your food at a con by selling zines out of your backpack. That all changed in 2009 with the advent of ubiquitous cheap ereaders. I still suspect 50 Shades was published with the intent of making pizza money, not megabucks.
 

Channy

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^

You can't copyright ideas.

Katie's right, that's not really what I meant. The characters are carbon copies of their Twilight counterparts, and very thinly veiled copies as well. No other character, bar Christian and Ana because they're mains, get's more than a line or two or description. Mia is svelt with short dark hair and beaming eyes. You don't need more than that, because you already know what Alice looks like. You imagine Ashley Greene as Alice, and from there, as Mia.

Also, Carrick? Really? At least his wife was the Doctor and not him.

There's also scenes practically lifted from Twilight. The 3-6 month break up of Bella and Edward? Probably nothing compared to the three days Ana had to endure.

Edward saved Bella from a van which sparked their interest in each other. Christian saved Ana from... a bike?

Both men are adopted/have adoptive families.

Christian constantly 'dazzles' Ana.

And need I mention the piano?

I could go on with the comparisons, but it's an awful lot of 'ideas' to just be coincidence.
 

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I've read books one and two and am on three now, after hearing my coworkers go on about reading them. I had to do so to see what was up.

Are they extraordinary? Far from it. The writing isn't half-bad, although James could use a wider variety of words (and for god's sake, stop referring to certain places of the female body as "there"!). It's certainly a page-turner, and it's an easy read that I can have on my breaks at work and when I read before bed.

I know there are comparisons draw to that worthless series called Twilight (eyeroll) and I will say this trilogy is more in line with what an adult woman such as myself would be more inclined to fantasize over as compared to wussy, sparkling vamps. My roommate and I had this discussion the other day, as two 20-something females, and even though neither of us would ever likely engage in anything remotely related to BDSM, we did admit that in our carnal minds, we are curious what it would be like. I think that's why the series has the appeal it does. For the people who are sitting back going "What if..." in the backs of their minds.
 

Celia Cyanide

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That's actually really unfair to both people with messed up pasts and people into BDSM. An assumption that "Oh, my mom's pimp used to beat the shit out of me, so now I like to prey on women who look like her and exact my revenge" is pretty fucked up. But I don't see how that should fit into a BDSM lifestyle, it completely whitewashes the past by attempting to justify that he's into fucked up shit because he himself is fucked up. No, 95% of the population that's fucked up are just fucked up. People who are into BDSM more or less likely have a kink for it. Probably not because their mom's pimp used to put out cigarettes on their chest.

Actually, that's not very accurate. It would be unfair to assume that everyone into BDSM was into it for that specific reason. Or that anyone who has had a difficult past would respond by being into BDSM. But lots of people do have reasons for their kinks. Just one example, because it is publicly known. Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, who wrote Venus In Furs, said that as a child he was playing hide and seek and he hid inside a woman's cupboard. The woman came in with her lover and they had sex. He could see then through the crack in the door. She found him and beat him with switches as punishment. Who knows what exactly happened, but I had always thought it was the combination of being somewhat aroused and then being severely beaten that caused him to associate one thing with the other. To have one character who has a kink as a result of a traumatic childhood experience is hardly unrealistic. I used to talk to my clients about how their fetishes got started, and they had similar stories from childhood, which I can't share because they are personal.

Another thing to remember...the thing with BDSM is that so much of it involves fantasy and roleplay. You might roleplay master/slave, kidnapper/victim, or some other scenario in which the dom has control over the sub, when in fact, the sub has complete control. In a fiction story, the control might be real, because that's the fantasy. It's not a representation of a real BDSM couple. It's what they imagine themselves to be.
 

gingerwoman

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Actually, that's not very accurate. It would be unfair to assume that everyone into BDSM was into it for that specific reason. Or that anyone who has had a difficult past would respond by being into BDSM. But lots of people do have reasons for their kinks. Just one example, because it is publicly known. Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, who wrote Venus In Furs, said that as a child he was playing hide and seek and he hid inside a woman's cupboard. The woman came in with her lover and they had sex. He could see then through the crack in the door. She found him and beat him with switches as punishment. Who knows what exactly happened, but I had always thought it was the combination of being somewhat aroused and then being severely beaten that caused him to associate one thing with the other. To have one character who has a kink as a result of a traumatic childhood
Happens all the time. Something weird happens when a person is on the edge of puberty and it becomes a life long kink. We were told that in psych class.
 
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doubt

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Again, I haven't read the book, but I have heard this criticism, and I thought it was rather strange. Sure, some people have fetishes for almost no reason at all. They've just always liked a certain thing. But for many people, it is linked with childhood experience, and sometimes a traumatic one.
I find something really scary and off-putting about kinks based on trauma. I know they do happen, probably frequently, but I'd rather run from that than indulge in it. It just makes me want to cry. Maybe because I've had some trauma that resulted in kinks that were exactly the opposite of the trauma? Still linked, but switched around. If something bad happened to me, it's most likely going to be triggering rather than sexually stimulating.
 

jennontheisland

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I find something really scary and off-putting about kinks based on trauma. I know they do happen, probably frequently, but I'd rather run from that than indulge in it. It just makes me want to cry. Maybe because I've had some trauma that resulted in kinks that were exactly the opposite of the trauma? Still linked, but switched around. If something bad happened to me, it's most likely going to be triggering rather than sexually stimulating.
I suspect the prevalence of the BDSM-as-therapy trope (many authors describe their justification for a BDSM relationship as so one or more characters can work out issues) is likely related to the kink-based-on-trauma trope
 

rhymegirl

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I find it ironic how people get their panties in such a huge wad over this book, esp other romance/erotica authors. As with anything else, this book is a matter of taste and in matters of taste you can't tell one person they're wrong for liking it. That's like saying I love rocky road ice cream and hate rainbow sherbert so anyone that likes rainbow sherbert is a moron/tasteless/gullible/likes to be abused/etc. ;)

I've read the books and they weren't bad. I've read better and worse, but the woman told a story that really connected with a lot, something I believe all authors strive to do. As far as the book being good or bad for women...well shit it's fiction. If a woman bases how she reacts to half of the worlds population based on one book then there has been some major failure along the way in her upbringing.
;)

This is a great post. I had been mulling over what I wanted to say about this book (which I'm halfway through reading) and this post pretty much sums it up.

It's fantasy world fiction. It the author was writing historical romance or historical non-fiction, well it would have to be factually accurate. But I think when you're making up a story about a man and a woman and their relationship, just about anything goes.

I can understand criticizing the characters or the plot, but I haven't found the writing to be bad (meaning the way she puts her sentences together.) There are some mistakes/typos I've found.

I can honestly say I have known some men in real life who were control freaks, trying to tell me how to drive, what kind of perfume to wear or not wear, how much I should weigh, etc.

So in some ways I can identify with the main character. It's possible to be attracted to a man/have feelings for a man even though he is trying to control you. Part of you wants to tell him to shut the hell up (which will only make him angry) and another part just goes along to keep the peace and even starts questioning whether he's right to begin with.

I also feel that this book has made many people curious, wondering why it's on the best seller's list, and that makes them want to buy a copy. The curiosity factor. So the author must be doing something right.
 

elindsen

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Everyone has their own opinions of what is/is not healthy about this book. But one thing that bothers me is that people say it's fanfiction. Yes, James put it up as fanfiction, so it is. But, honestly, I don't see how so I'm open to explanations.

I'm reading the second book now but the original as Isabella and Edward. I've read Twilight and seen all the movies. These characters, other than names and physical descriptions, are nothing like the characters. Edward wasn't a dick. Bella wasn't...okay, Bella was whiny but in a different way, I took it. Honestly, if nobody told me this was Twilight Fanfic I never would have guessed it.

But, like I said, am I missing something?
 

mfarraday

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Well, I finally read it. I liked the first few chapters, then got really depressed after he spanked her the 1st time, wasn't sure I'd be able to finish it. I did get tired of the hackneyed phrases that appeared over and over again, and of James' weak attempts to lend the characters some depth. It didn't touch me - one sex scene seemed very similar to another.

The idea/concept was original, but I think she could have thought of some original phrases. The first time she 'clambers' out of bed or into bed, fine. The 2nd time? The 3rd? How do you clamber into a shower, exactly? And the blushing got really old. And his growling. And everyone was so perfect and beautiful. Ugh. The flaws the characters had weren't truly flaws, it seemed to me. So I wasn't able to bond with them.

I didn't expect the ending, but it doesn't make me want to read/pay for the sequel. Ah well...I guess deep down I really wanted to see if I could write this sort of thing, and so took this as an example.

Can you write an emotionally engaging book, one that has characters with depth, and the sex still be good? Or is it one or the other? It seems if you want to write this much sex into the novel, the rest of it must suffer.

Anyway, that was my big purchase of the week. I'll read anything.
 

gingerwoman

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Funny thing is with me defending the first book I got bored with the second book and just haven't been able to finish it. lol
re The Twilight Fanfic, she did change things later to turn it into her own work so I think people continually calling it fanfic after it became Shades of Grey is a little unfair.
Although possibly people telling other people that this is Bella and Eric having BD/SM sex was a good part of what sparked it's phenomenal financial success.
 

elindsen

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re The Twilight Fanfic, she did change things later to turn it into her own work so I think people continually calling it fanfic after it became Shades of Grey is a little unfair.
That's how I felt. I'm reading the original Masters of the Universe and it really doesn't feel like Twilight to me. I think it keeps being marketed as such for more money.