"Let's face it: pretty white girls sell."

Othello.

... sometimes you have to make concessions.
That's just how things go. I made one, myself, in a recent work.
And actually the work is probably better for it.
I wanted to make the character this,
because I wanted to get readers aware of this,
and sympathetic to this. And while that was an admirable aim, perhaps,
it still didn't really fit in with the story entirely.
It was more about me than the story.
Preachin' for equality more or less.
G'luck.

I've heard it all concerning my YA novel.

"She's too Black." I have heard this repeatedly.

Beyonce and Rihanna are NOT how the average Black woman/girl looks. We come in a variety of skin tones and no,they don't end at light mocha. I will NOT compromise on my character's appearance whatsoever. No and more NO.

"Maybe if you make her mixed race,it will sell."

This is another one that is quite irritating. From my unscientific survey amongst my teen cousins and their wide group of friends,they do not want to see this. They hear it enough in songs how lighter skinned Black/Mixed race women are more beautiful,they see it in casting in videos&movies and they told me in no uncertain terms,they have zero interest in such a character. They want to see a teen MC who looks like them and also written positively. This is about the only stumbling block I can see for your story. But potential readers have to understand the time frame for your story and how such a character fits that era perfectly.


"I don't know if there's a market for this book."

This feeds into the stubborn myth that Black kids don't read. They do. But when you have YA series where Black kids are basically living on a plantation picking fruit and little else,where is the incentive for them to buy or care about these books? Or an industry that continues to whitewash book covers and only does something about it,when caring people raise hell?

I have said it a thousand times,but a book written towards this HUGE and ignored market in the paranormal genre will stun people with how well it will sell. The key is convincing agents and more importantly,publishers,that this can happen. I will be frank. Some do believe the myth and publishing comes down to dollars. They aren't going to tinker with what sells. So a writer with a POC character is facing a serious battle and I won't sugarcoat that for you. It will be hard.

Positivity helps,as well as more agents actively seeking multicultural fiction. But even that won't be enough if publishers are resistant to giving such a book a chance. It will take an open minded agent,as well as a publisher to give these books a chance. I tend to believe that this magical combination exists if a writer searches hard enough. But for me,I have reached the point where I have no intention of doing this. I don't have the energy or inclination anymore. I know my audience exists,how to target them,what they want to see and have received positive feedback from publications that target that same audience. I'm going it alone. I wish you well and will keep my fingers crossed for you.

Kitty27 said:

"Maybe if you make her mixed race,it will sell."

This is another one that is quite irritating. From my unscientific survey amongst my teen cousins and their wide group of friends,they do not want to see this. They hear it enough in songs how lighter skinned Black/Mixed race women are more beautiful,they see it in casting in videos&movies and they told me in no uncertain terms,they have zero interest in such a character. They want to see a teen MC who looks like them and also written positively. This is about the only stumbling block I can see for your story. But potential readers have to understand the time frame for your story and how such a character fits that era perfectly.

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I have no idea what it's like in the black community, and I know it's not what either the "suggestion" or your rebuttal to it actually mean to address, but just for completeness, I do want to add that there are plenty of PoC out there who are mixed race and who struggle with being half-breeds and never really belonging in either world, and we need fiction for us, too.

kuwisdelu said:

I have no idea what it's like in the black community, and I know it's not what either the "suggestion" or your rebuttal to it actually mean to address, but just for completeness, I do want to add that there are plenty of PoC out there who are mixed race and who struggle with being half-breeds and never really belonging in either world, and we need fiction for us, too.

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I understand what you're saying and I agree. Since you spoke on it,I'll explain further.

From the Black community's POV- especially concerning teen girls&Black women- with regards to what is beautiful in our community,there has been a very nasty message of what that means and most of the time,it does NOT mean them. I am caramel colored and have been told that I just meet the acceptable cut off point. I cannot begin to imagine what darker skinned girls and women hear. Idris Elba is a sex symbol while you hardly ever see a Black actress his complexion seen the same way.

It is not all woe,however,because self esteem always carries the day. But it is not easy,either. Colorism is a savage and seemingly incurable disease plaguing our community. It seems crazy that people who face so much discrimination would turn it on each other,but unfortunately,we do.

From Lil Wayne's "Beautiful Black bitch,I bet she look better red" mess to the casting in music videos to nearly all the rappers they listen to saying they want a "redbone", it produces a LOT of issues for young Black girls. Look at the publishing industry and the repeated Whitewashing controversies.The two dominant Black female stars are both light skinned and there isn't any variety whatsoever. It isn't like the 90s when we had Brandy,Monica,TLC,Missy Elliott, Aaliyah aka Black females who spanned a variety of shades in the media for young Black girls to look up to and also seem themselves represented.

Many just want to see a teen MC who looks like them and their friends. I think that's normal and they are the audience I focus on.

Please write your story and get it published. It would be refreshing to read a story with POC character that isn't dealing with slavery or teen pregnancy. So far that is what I've seen in African-American YA and it's getting really tiresome.

Lyra Jean said:

Please write your story and get it published. It would be refreshing to read a story with POC character that isn't dealing with slavery or teen pregnancy. So far that is what I've seen in African-American YA and it's getting really tiresome.

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Thank you!

My group of ruthless Betas say the exact same thing. They are especially tired of depictions in Urban Fiction as well. All we can do is continue to make things happen,whether it be through self-publishing or traditional.

Seriously, write your PoC as a PoC. We DESPERATELY need a book like yours.

Also, yeah, anyone who says that there weren't Black people in 1860s France need to pull their head out of their ass, because that has been debunked so many times that it isn't even funny. There were PoC in Europe since forever ago! I saw a blog post a little while ago that showed all sorts of medieval and renaissance art with Black people in the portraits, including as clergy and nobles.

Kitty27 said:

From my unscientific survey amongst my teen cousins and their wide group of friends,they do not want to see this. They hear it enough in songs how lighter skinned Black/Mixed race women are more beautiful,they see it in casting in videos&movies and they told me in no uncertain terms,they have zero interest in such a character. They want to see a teen MC who looks like them and also written positively.

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Kitty27 said:

From the Black community's POV- especially concerning teen girls&Black women- with regards to what is beautiful in our community,there has been a very nasty message of what that means and most of the time,it does NOT mean them. I am caramel colored and have been told that I just meet the acceptable cut off point. I cannot begin to imagine what darker skinned girls and women hear. Idris Elba is a sex symbol while you hardly ever see a Black actress his complexion seen the same way.

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I think this is where it's important to make a distinction between the black community as a whole and the branch of the black community that includes the mixed community.
Where mixed race people are usually exempt from colorism, they also face a lot of identity and conformity issues that I don't think affects the black community at large. If you took the opinion of the mixed black community, they would all heavily stress that there isn't nearly the amount of focus on even acknowledging mixed race people exist in the media.

I'm from England, so the culture may be slightly different in the US, but as a mixed race black/white person I nearly never had mixed race idols to look up to. Although there might have been idols that looked like me for me to look up to, I was always given the impression that they were completely black and pure and whole and I was not quite them and not quite white either. Any mixed race faces on television were always playing black characters with two black parents from black families and communities (a problem that not only combines how mixed race people perceive themselves but also affects how darker skinned black girls perceive themselves).

I never felt I had any idols to look up to that were facing the same specific issues I was facing being mixed race. For instance, growing up in a predominantly white environment, I was often asked if I was adopted *and* pretty heavily teased for it. I had no sense of identity until I was about fifteen. It was actually very confusing and I would have liked to have had books that featured mixed race characters who were mixed race. Not just lighter skinned black people.

Obviously colorism is a big issue affecting young black girls and their perceived sense of self but I think an equally big issue is the lack of identity mixed race girls sometimes have. Although a light skinned black person from a black family and a black community might look mixed race, they're probably likely to face socially different issues from someone who comes from a mixed community.

I'm 100% behind there being more darker black faces in media and television but I don't think mixed raced characters should be sacrificed along the way. I think they're actually very separate issues and shouldn't be combined or discussed on the same level. There shouldn't ever be a case of "make the black girl mixed race to sell more" or "there's too many light people in the media, make the mixed race girl black" because the issues both of those minorities face are very different. In a lot of ways they aren't actually comparable.

It would have been just as beneficial for me to see a mixed race character dealing with the same identity issues and pressure to conform to one race or the other in books and television when I was a kid, as it will be for dark skinned black girls to see people like them. I really don't like the idea that having a mixed race character is a compromise, an inbetween, a more acceptable version of black. In reality, that's not what it's like to be mixed race at all.

Booksellers as well as agents and publishers need to also help. I think I've said this before... but when I took a look at a Barnes and Nobles, I saw different covers used for the same book than my local bookstore. What struck me was that the books that clearly had PoCs in Barnes and Nobles tended to use the "non-face" cover. While my local bookstore bought covers with PoCs on the cover. Also the local bookstore had books I'd expect to be on the shelf with PoCs that the Barnes and Nobles didn't. (Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower is a good example of the difference in cover stocked by the bookstore.)

Clearly, booksellers also have an influence on what is being bought and sold. I'm still mad at Barnes and Nobles. I'm a little cynical it was just that branch though. Someone is running it at the top making such decisions.

And for reference, I went the same day for both bookstores.

Adding my voice to the chorus of 'KEEP HER THE WAY SHE IS, OMG' and also the chorus of eyerolling at whoever told you these things. Among other things, they clearly know nothing about history. Black people have been traipsing around Europe for a DAMN long time and occupied important positions.

Even if we were to accept that it sells better, period, zero discussion possible, there's still reasons not to listen:
a) There will always be some trope or plot element or genre that sells better than what we want to write. Should we be aware of that? Sure. Should we automatically compromise our stories? Hell no.
b) A significant audience is hungry for PoC leads.
c) Even if it's true, that doesn't mean it's right, and making it right involves making sure we have as much PoC leads as possible--not getting rid of the few we have.

Kitty27 said:

"Maybe if you make her mixed race,it will sell."

This is another one that is quite irritating. From my unscientific survey amongst my teen cousins and their wide group of friends,they do not want to see this. They hear it enough in songs how lighter skinned Black/Mixed race women are more beautiful,they see it in casting in videos&movies and they told me in no uncertain terms,they have zero interest in such a character. They want to see a teen MC who looks like them and also written positively. This is about the only stumbling block I can see for your story. But potential readers have to understand the time frame for your story and how such a character fits that era perfectly.

Click to expand...

kuwisdelu said:

I have no idea what it's like in the black community, and I know it's not what either the "suggestion" or your rebuttal to it actually mean to address, but just for completeness, I do want to add that there are plenty of PoC out there who are mixed race and who struggle with being half-breeds and never really belonging in either world, and we need fiction for us, too.

Click to expand...

ellio said:

I really don't like the idea that having a mixed race character is a compromise, an inbetween, a more acceptable version of black. In reality, that's not what it's like to be mixed race at all.

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I think the mixed-race character issue is interesting. (OK, fair enough, I'm biracial.)

Several times I have seen biracial characters (who were half white; I'm not talking about, for example, half-black, half-Asian characters) described as a cop-out. A compromise.

Now, sometimes this complaint is expressed in a way that is rather insulting to me. Really, there shouldn't be biracial characters? There's something completely wrong with having a half-Asian rather than a fully Asian character?

And I haven't read enough such books to judge, but...it sounds like, unfortunately, having a biracial MC is frequently a way to make the book more "palatable" to white readers--like what Kitty has been told. It's a way to add diversity without really adding diversity, because the MC's identity issues , for example, are never discussed. (See this review, especially comments #15 and #21.)

I want to read characters of mixed race, but I don't want to these characters to be half-white just so the author has an excuse to whitewash them.

I mean, there could be cultural identity issues. Or significantly family tensions due to the parents' relationship. (My mom's parents didn't go to her wedding, for example. They gave my parents a wedding present more than TEN YEARS late. And there are no pictures of me with my maternal grandparents until I was 3 or 4.) If you are estranged from half your family, imagine what that could do to your identity issues... The idea of being "half-Asian" really bothered me when I was a child. In grade one, I decided on a way to identify myself that involved splitting myself into thirds...

But yeah, I don't want mixed race characters just to make diversity more palatable. Unfortunately, there does seem to be some of that going on. Uggh.

LJD said:

But yeah, I don't want mixed race characters just to make diversity more palatable. Unfortunately, there does seem to be some of that going on. Uggh.

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Yes, that is what bothers me.

Really, my biggest problem is that the majority of mixed race characters are PoC/White. Never two different races unless one of them is white. Also, there's the colorism issue, with light skin being more desirable.

I really dislike the token half black (or half Asian) (maybe bisexual) character who's only there to be the sassy best friend. It gets old. I don't like issue novels, and I certainly don't believe mixed raced characters are bad or wrong to use, but when I see white authors throwing in one for the sake of being "diverse" I can't help but let my eye twitch.

We usually get the same description—light mocha skin, green eyes, clear skin, unbelievably soft hair that might be a weave—for all of them.

Green eyes are common, regardless of sex.

I'd like more true to life presentations of all PoC and biracial characters.

thebloodfiend said:

Really, my biggest problem is that the majority of mixed race characters are PoC/White. Never two different races unless one of them is white. Also, there's the colorism issue, with light skin being more desirable.
.

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Yes, this too.
I have always been part of the black community in my own eyes because the white community generally doesn't want to acknowledge I came from the womb of one of them, as I'm sure is the case with asian-white children too.
Kids that are PoC mixed probably even have even more identity issues because (cue mass generalisation and with it my apologies) PoC tend to have really strong cultures and I'd love to see a character pulled into two of those cultures and not being able to establish their identity within them. Especially if the two cultures were ones that were in some way inherently racist towards each other, which can often happen.

That is definitely not a topic discussed enough in YA... or at all.

ellio said:

Yes, this too.
I have always been part of the black community in my own eyes because the white community generally doesn't want to acknowledge I came from the womb of one of them, as I'm sure is the case with asian-white children too.
Kids that are PoC mixed probably even have even more identity issues because (cue mass generalisation and with it my apologies) PoC tend to have really strong cultures and I'd love to see a character pulled into two of those cultures and not being able to establish their identity within them. Especially if the two cultures were ones that were in some way inherently racist towards each other, which can often happen.

That is definitely not a topic discussed enough in YA... or at all.

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--

---

I'll start this by saying I'm not of mixed race, so I can't pretend to know what it's like for anyone who's half-black/white/Asian to grow up and not be accepted in one or both racial groups due to what they are.

However, my children are bi-racial--I'm Caucasian and my wife is Asian (Japanese)--so my children have, unfortunately--been exposed to some racism living here in Japan.

They identify themselves as being Japanese even though they look predominantly Western. I think that how they identify themselves all comes down to parenting and how willing the parents are to see both sides of the equation and engender in their children the idea of "you're the same as everyone, so don't let comments bother you" or words to that effect.

This is just my own personal observation and in no way reflects the experiences of others or their mindsets.

As for novels, I grew up with the usual white and straight and male MC who, while flawed in terms of character, usually rights his own personal wrongs, saves the day, and gets the girl in the end. It wasn't until I was an adult that I found other sources of literature with different PoC and it was an eye-opener for me.

Now, it's something I'd like to see more of, not just for the sake of being inclusive, but for showing that there are PoC who can be and act just as heroically--or badly--as anyone else. The world ain't totally white anymore and it never was. It's refreshing to read different points of view.

Sorry for the long ramble.

ellio said:

Yes, this too.
I have always been part of the black community in my own eyes because the white community generally doesn't want to acknowledge I came from the womb of one of them, as I'm sure is the case with asian-white children too.

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My experience is rather different.

Although I have lots of Asian friends, I will never be part of the Chinese community here in any way. I am just not Chinese enough for that. Some of that is a language issue--you cannot really be part of the Chinese community if you don't speak Cantonese or Mandarin. (See this, for example.) My mom, who was 100% Chinese-Canadian, was pretty much ostracized from the Chinese community here too. She was Canadian-born (pretty damn rare for someone of her age where I live), married a white guy, and spoke poor Toisanese. (And the Toisanese were often looked down upon as village people or country bumpkins so that probably didn't help.) The rare times we went to the Asian mall, she'd be spoken to in Cantonese, and she'd have to say she only spoke English, and it was always very awkward.

I do not have strong Asian features, and have never felt outright rejection from the white community. Maybe they see me as different, but not "different enough."

@LJD - You know, I'll admit, I never even considered that kind of situation. My apologies. I guess because mostly where I grew up there were so few ethnic minorities at all that anyone who was even a tiny bit different looking was made to feel aware of it. I remember being in a class where every kid was blonde except for me and the half-thai girl who was also very much made to feel like she did not belong.

Now where I live communities are somewhat segregated and a lot of ethnic groups do keep very close together and speak in their native languages to each other. I never even considered how isolating it would be if someone couldn't speak the native language of their community whether they were mixed race or fully one race (uh, that's a non PC term if I ever heard one *slaps wrist*). I just hear such a variety of languages going on in my area - which is such a breath of fresh air from the parts of England that I grew up in where it was almost frowned upon if you were bilingual (definitely frown upon if English wasn't your first language) - that it never crossed my mind to think about those that were maybe left out of the conversation.

You know the more I think about it, really (not referencing your personal story particularly as I'd in no way want to diminish your experiences by insinuating they make good fiction) it's incredible how many complex and emotional story lines there can be revolving PoC characters and mixed PoC characters. The experiences PoC face can be so diverse and unique in their own right that it's actually pretty ridiculous that we don't see more of them in books.

OP, I think your premise sounds like a wonderful jumping off place for your story. Europe, particularly France, was a haven for children of placage, particularly those who could "pass" who could merge into the "white" society.

History is what it is. Write your story and don't let anyone bully you into "whitewashing" it.

LJD said:

My experience is rather different.

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And mine is different from both of yours! I think of myself as extremely lucky because I am Jewish on my mother's side and Muslim on my father's side and whenever I meet a Jew they are like "Well OF COURSE you're Jewish! The line carries from the mother!" (and plus... I have the stereotypical big nose.) And whenever I meet a Muslim they're like "Well OF COURSE you're Muslim! If you feel Muslim in your heart, that's all that matters!" (And besides I look very Middle Eastern.)

I know there ARE Muslims and Jews out there who would be like 'OH HELL NAWW!!!' but, I guess, especially because I live in America and am meeting American Muslims and Jews they are waaay more likely to be open-minded and understanding! But I mainly love that they *claim* me for their teams without even asking which religion I myself prefer. It feels great to be included because I know how horrible it can feel to be half-this and half-that and members of neither race think you belong. People really need to fucking stop doing that!!

(Sorry, i really don't mean to make it sound like I am bragging, this is just something that really makes me feel good so I wanted to share. I hope with the next generation, everyone of every race and ethnic group will be like this. More and more mixed kids are being born every day!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans_in_France

You know what? I don't even know why I didn't Google this before but it's right there in Wikipedia for fuck's sake! Show those people this and tell them to shut up!

African Americans, who are largely descended from Africans of the American colonial era, have lived and worked in France since the 1800s. Unofficial figures indicate that up to 50,000 free blacks emigrated to Paris from Louisiana in the decades after Napoleon sold the territory to the United States in 1803.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans_in_France#cite_note-theglobeandmail.com-1

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lolchemist said:

And mine is different from both of yours! I think of myself as extremely lucky because I am Jewish on my mother's side and Muslim on my father's side and whenever I meet a Jew they are like "Well OF COURSE you're Jewish! The line carries from the mother!" (and plus... I have the stereotypical big nose.) And whenever I meet a Muslim they're like "Well OF COURSE you're Muslim! If you feel Muslim in your heart, that's all that matters!" (And besides I look very Middle Eastern.)

I know there ARE Muslims and Jews out there who would be like 'OH HELL NAWW!!!' but, I guess, especially because I live in America and am meeting American Muslims and Jews they are waaay more likely to be open-minded and understanding! But I mainly love that they *claim* me for their teams without even asking which religion I myself prefer. It feels great to be included because I know how horrible it can feel to be half-this and half-that and members of neither race think you belong. People really need to fucking stop doing that!!

(Sorry, i really don't mean to make it sound like I am bragging, this is just something that really makes me feel good so I wanted to share. I hope with the next generation, everyone of every race and ethnic group will be like this. More and more mixed kids are being born every day!)

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---

I read this post and laughed at the humor in it. Being Jewish myself (both sides of my family) but never religious, I always find it amusing to be asked around Christmas time (in Japan) "Are you going to church?"

"Uh, no."

The conversation usually stops at that point.

My kids are half-white and half-Asian, half-Buddhist and half-Jewish, and they love Christmas, mainly because they know they're going to get presents...God help me.

When my mother met my wife for the first time years back, she whispered to me with a smile on her face, "You married a shikse?"

What could I say? I told her I married someone I loved...that was enough, and my mother, now gone, was very, VERY proud of her two grandsons to the day she died. Love will always find a way and is the true path to learning and tolerance. This, I firmly believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws9KI_KLWEs

She's half black and half Korean. Love this song. But she pretty much sings and raps her way through the issues she faced by being happa in Korea. Still touches me.

This is the music I play when I have a crappy day.

Still in the comments of some of her videos I occasionally see people argue if she looks more black or more Korean or more black or more Korean for a particular photo, or even, "Where is her kinky hair". --;;

As a Korean adopted to a Russian Hungarian Atheist Jewish family that DID go to a Unitarian Universalist Church for 10 years, though my parents often complained it was too Catholic and only went for the music and the free babysitting. (I know) and a Buddhist Monk for a father.... (Korean side gets more complex, but not getting into that)

I think I have a pretty rich background. Jews called me not Jewish. My mom didn't want to put us through a Bat/Bar Mitzvah. 'cause she didn't like it as a child. We never went to temple, only to that church. And Korean community, while nice, would auto-think because I'm adopted I belonged to the Jews. The Jews would think that I didn't belong at all. The Christians assumed I was Christian, until I wasn't. And I didn't find out I was partially Buddhist by my Korean father until later. (Though explaining how you can be the child of a Monk is difficult sometimes... he became a Monk about right after I was adopted. OK.)

Pretty much I was kicked out of every classification. People of color, saw I was raised by Whites, so I got white privilege, but that was only at home. (My parents often didn't get that I got straight up racism, and would argue that I didn't.)

Koreans in Korea say I was lucky to be adopted to the US, but then consider me white at the same time.

And biracial people didn't recognize me as biracial either... 'cause ya know, I'm not actually genetically half white. I just feel that way inside. Interracial Adopted people also argue about how white or how PoC they are within the community too, like a cosmic, inter-how white are you? moment. Some even make sweeping comments. (though I tend to say that I think the way to function well is to embrace both... mostly because I've seen severe backlash when one is ignored over the other. Mine isn't a popular opinion though... well, not yet. Next gen might feel as I do.) Even people outside get into this debate. How white are interracially adopted kids? Such that someone in my class who was black and adopted to white parents was teased mercilessly. (I'm not sure, but I think he ended up going to law school... there was a local newspaper report about it.)

If you want a cosmic identity crisis, there you go. Took me years to sort out, get strong enough to say I'm not either or, I'm both. Now deal with it.

But I've been lucky to have people that also get it as well.

Missus Akasha said:

So I should probably find a beta reader or readers, but I wouldn't even know where to go with that! Plus, do you have to have a the whole story complete or can you submit what you have to beta readers as you go along?

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Beta readers are just anyone willing to read and comment on your work before it's ready for the public. When you send stuff to them totally depends on your relationship.

I would definitely suggest finding new betas if they're so against the kind of characters you write. AW is a good place to start! You can try the official beta forum (which I'd link to if I weren't spectacularly lazy...) or maybe ask someone in here? It can't hurt.

Alternatively, I've found a lot of my CPs just via befriending people on Twitter and blogs. I've been fairly lucky so far in who I've sent my work to--most haven't had a problem with my leads not being white/straight/abled. Being friends with someone beforehand helps you weed out those people anyway, I guess.