"Let's face it: pretty white girls sell."

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Kim Fierce

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Wow, this turned out to be a very tantalizing discussion! A lot of interesting points were made and I agree with all of them honestly. It's funny how it works. There is this assumption that being biracial is more accepting to society, but biracial people tend to be rejected by both heritages. They are caught in a world in between. I guess that is why I wanted to write my lead character as one.

To answer the question of who told me those things: it's family and friends. Not agents or publishing houses, thank God! Over the years they have give me a lot of good criticism, but that was when I was still developing my skills. Now as I have found my writing style and I am more matured, their criticism doesn't focus on my writing anymore, but trivial things such as my characters' races.

So I should probably find a beta reader or readers, but I wouldn't even know where to go with that! Plus, do you have to have a the whole story complete or can you submit what you have to beta readers as you go along?

Depends on your beta readers. I say multiple areas of diversity should be more common in the future. All my stories feature characters with diverse races/sexualities, and in The Divide everyone is multi-racial and it's 200 years in the future, and not just white/PoC. I want to make sure I'm not putting myself into some kind of bad trope with that! This discussion has helped me to see that in the sequel, some of my multi-racial characters will have some more focus put on their different family cultures. For example, I have a lesbian character who is part native American and wears a mohawk, and I don't explain why in book one. But that's because the MC in book one sees things from her government brainwashed perspective. But there is a reason, so I will tell it. And there are other things I'm going to expand on as well.

From what I have read, I think the stories with biracial characters who are completely whitewashed or seem to have none of the problems you mentioned are the ones that are causing a problem overall. Like Jem in Clockwork Angel. It is good to see a white/Chinese character, but he is always treated as if he is white, really. I still like him. But I see where the conflict could lie. And Cassandra Clare is awesome. The MC is a white girl who seems very unused to being around what she refers to as "foreign" people but has no problem accepting Jem and doesn't think of him as "foreign".

I think there is still a struggle with diversity in characters but the more of us who keep putting our work out there, the more likely we should see a revolution! :p
 

KingAlanI

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I agree that saying crap like that is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 

Kim Fierce

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Yeah, like what century are we in?

I have an upcoming guest blog post about diversity in writing for All Romance ebooks. (I was trying to get on their pride month guest list, but they were triple-booked so I am doing a sort of intro-to pride month post scheduled for next week, and decided to talk about all types of diversity.) I attempt to encourage both writers and readers to not give up because I really do think we're on the edge of a new trend in popular literature. At least I hope so!
 

Roxxsmom

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Your book and character sound fascinating. It's something I'd be interested in reading. Actually, her heritage might be something that would catch my interest and make me more likely to read it.

And I've seen agent sites where the agent specifically says they're particularly interested in stories told from diverse perspectives or from the pov of people traditionally underrepresented in genre fiction.
 

Max Vaehling

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The OP reminds me of the people who, very concernedly, suggested that while they liked my comic about a pre-teen monster hunter, wouldn't it be smarter, sales-wise, to make her older? I could write about teen problems and appeal to teen audiences and... (Well, at least she's white. I mean, if she wasn't, you wouldn't even be able to gloss over the fact. You'd see it in every panel because it's a comic!)

I usually reply that, while there's certainly a story or two in the teen monster hunter genre, that's not the kind of story I want to tell. In fact, it's somebody else's story called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", and while it indeed was very successful, it's already there.

That said, these comments reflect the kind of reaction you may get from publishers or agents who don't have the story in mind but their audiences and their perceptions of What Sells. The old line of "I love it, but my readers won't go for it". Which is almost always an untested claim. It's why change is so slow in mainstream fiction. Better to prepare for that kind of backlash now than be crushed by it later.

BTW, I love the idea of a mixed-race protagonist in 1860 France - from her built-in outsider's perspective to the fact that she's sure to defy everybody's expectations, giving you unique possibilities to describe her world.
 
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Kaarl

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Yes I think there is some merit to that comment (sad but true) however... "Let's face it: good stories sell well" is a far more accurate one.

It seems to me (based off of your post) that her mixed race heritage contributes very little to the tension of the story and doesn't provide your MC with many challenges beyond a few glances and snarky comments.

Maybe if it was a constant source of problems for her (not necessarily major but at least noticeable) it would be easier to "defend" her background. In saying that I totally agree with the other posters that you shouldn't have to.

I myself am of mixed race and even in this day and age it can be a source of drama. My own cousin used to berate me because my mother is English and I'm lighter than the other side of my family. That was in the late 90's .....
 

kuwisdelu

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Yes I think there is some merit to that comment (sad but true) however... "Let's face it: good stories sell well" is a far more accurate one.

It seems to me (based off of your post) that her mixed race heritage contributes very little to the tension of the story and doesn't provide your MC with many challenges beyond a few glances and snarky comments.

Maybe if it was a constant source of problems for her (not necessarily major but at least noticeable) it would be easier to "defend" her background.

That sounds just like "unless their ethnicity is very important to the plot, all characters should be white."
 

Kaarl

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That sounds just like "unless their ethnicity is very important to the plot, all characters should be white."

And that sounds like if you make no detailed mention of their ethnicity at all then they automatically are white.

*EDIT* "She is the product of a placage between a Creole woman and a white French planation owner" is fine however from the comments from the OP's betas there seems to be some other description that gives her an exact mix in 1/4's.

Why not just leave it at that sentence and let readers pick the rest up and run with it how they will ? If there is a concern about how people will react to the MC which is the reason for the post.
 
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kuwisdelu

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And that sounds like if you make no mention of their ethnicity at all then they automatically are white.

Huh? How so?

Are you trying to suggest you were saying one should only mention ethnicity if it's important to the plot?

Practically speaking, if you're publishing for an American audience, and you envision you're character being something other than white, whether that's important to the story or not, you need to mention it if you want readers to envision her as something other than white.

And sometimes it's still not enough...
 

Kaarl

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Not at all.

What I was trying to get at was perhaps leaving out 'she is 3/4 this and 1/4 that' and just sticking with that single sentence the OP mentioned about a plantation owner might circumvent the race nonsense AND broaden the appeal.

I am not sure if the OP specifically mentions the exact mix in the text; I'm basing that off of the post.

The you took that to mean "unless their ethnicity is very important to the plot, all characters should be white"

If I say "A man walked in to a room and sat down" does that mean he is white ? I haven't mentioned race at all, yet you are saying I've just made him white by omitting to talk about his skin colour. That's YOUR perception of what I'm doing and yours alone

The problem stems from the (and it's completely understandable) assumption that if I don't say it's a black man then he must be white.

And as for writing for an "American" audience, or any for that matter WHY do you need to mention it. "Show don't Tell" I believe has merit in response to the point you're bringing up there.

Not saying I have all the answers but I was doing my best to answer the question and give some perspective on why I was of that opinion.
 
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Kaarl

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As for "showing and not telling people" someone's ethnicity without stereotyping ethnic groups (of any colour) I am personally at a loss for the "How"

Not to hijack the thread but does anyone have examples of someone who does this ?
 

Cathy C

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"Why are Black people enslaved? The color of people's skin only suggests a slight difference. There is no discord between day and night, the sun and the moon and between the stars and dark sky. All is varied; it is the beauty of nature. Why destroy nature's work?"

Frenchman Olympe de Gouges, Reflections on Black People, 1788

Right after the French Revolution, the concept of slavery was a hot topic in France (Address to the National Assembly in Favor of the Abolition of the Slave Trade February 5, 1790 -Society of the Friends of Blacks ) A hundred years later, the feeling was the same.

What you might consider, Missus Akasha, is changing up your character's backstory a bit. Since you're writing paranormal anyway, why don't you consider moving the discussion of slavery in France up forward a century (along with a heated discussion of religious/paranormal matters like your subject.) Use the same points brought up in our reality and have your character be specifically brought to France to prove that "black is beautiful". It would showcase her to be proud, intelligent and strong when she is "presented" at public functions. Plus, it would give her stature within the context of the world and get her to the places necessary to deal with your plot.

Just a thought. Don't know if it'll work for your plot, but at the very least, there is plenty of real-world evidence to support her being in Paris at that time. :) It sounds like a great read and I really hope someone gives it a go!
 

kuwisdelu

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And as for writing for an "American" audience, or any for that matter WHY do you need to mention it.

If you don't mention it, many readers will assume white. That's just how it is.

Many of them will continue to assume white even after you've mentioned it.
 

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A good story is a good story. People will read and enjoy good stories no matter who the main character happens to be. And you'll far more enjoy writing the story you want to write, featuring the kinds of characters you want to write about, than writing one that bends to the will of others who don't share your vision.

A story is a balloon that rides on the loft of your own dreams. Those who poke holes in it without understanding the journey most assuredly encourage a crash rather than an adventure.
 

Kim Fierce

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Not at all.

What I was trying to get at was perhaps leaving out 'she is 3/4 this and 1/4 that' and just sticking with that single sentence the OP mentioned about a plantation owner might circumvent the race nonsense AND broaden the appeal.

.

Well, we had discussed earlier in another thread that in the case of Cassandra Clare's City of Ashes etc. series, her character Magnus is pretty much described the same way, only a brief explanation, and now some people are freaked out to learn that the character portraying him in the movies is Asian, because this wasn't enough and they assumed he was white.

I don't know why they seemed so horribly confused and upset in the particular example I saw . . . I guess whatever character attributes you want your readers to know . . . personality-wise or looks-wise and culturally . . . either way we definitely want to get the message across and don't want to be told "if your character had a different skin tone this would work best" on top of that. A good balance between describing race in every paragraph and only mentioning it vaguely is probably the best way!
 

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at the same time, though even if you do mention your character's race, some people will still imagine them as white anyway (such as Rue from The Hunger Games, who was apparently invisioned as a white child with blue eyes and blonde hair by many, despite the fact that it's pretty explicit that she's black). so in some ways you do kind of have to periodically remind people that your character is a character of color (unfortunately). and i think the way to do this is to remember that her heritage will affect the way she interacts with the world (on both sides- her experiences will inform her reactions and ways of thinking, and most people [intentionally or not] treat a poc differently from the way they'd treat a white person).

at teh same time, you should definitely juggle the experience thing so that it doesn't become a story about her race. i guess what i'm trying to say that her race should affect her story, but her story does not need to center around her race.
 

Lyra Jean

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at the same time, though even if you do mention your character's race, some people will still imagine them as white anyway (such as Rue from The Hunger Games, who was apparently invisioned as a white child with blue eyes and blonde hair by many, despite the fact that it's pretty explicit that she's black). so in some ways you do kind of have to periodically remind people that your character is a character of color (unfortunately). and i think the way to do this is to remember that her heritage will affect the way she interacts with the world (on both sides- her experiences will inform her reactions and ways of thinking, and most people [intentionally or not] treat a poc differently from the way they'd treat a white person).

at teh same time, you should definitely juggle the experience thing so that it doesn't become a story about her race. i guess what i'm trying to say that her race should affect her story, but her story does not need to center around her race.

I think that is because Katniss could see similarities between Rue and her own sister. Unfortunately most people only relate similarities to physical appearance not to personality.

I was surprised that I didn't hear any sort of kerfluffle on the net or otherwise about how all the black people in The Hunger Games worked on Plantantions in the South. At least in the books they didn't make any mention of people of color living elsewhere.
 

thebloodfiend

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I think that is because Katniss could see similarities between Rue and her own sister. Unfortunately most people only relate similarities to physical appearance not to personality.

I was surprised that I didn't hear any sort of kerfluffle on the net or otherwise about how all the black people in The Hunger Games worked on Plantantions in the South. At least in the books they didn't make any mention of people of color living elsewhere.

It was minor. People brushed it off as unimportant.
 

Max Vaehling

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As for "showing and not telling people" someone's ethnicity without stereotyping ethnic groups (of any colour) I am personally at a loss for the "How"

Not to hijack the thread but does anyone have examples of someone who does this ?

Neil Gaiman played with this expectation in Anansi Boys, by not mentioning anybody's race unless it's really important to the dialogue or theplot depends on it - mostly because the protagonist is black, and to him, that's normal and not worth mentioning. So mentioning it would have felt untrue to the PoV. As a reader, you're left to figuring it out yourself. Which, as the plot progresses, becomes increasingly obvious and harder to ignore.

But that's Neil Gaiman, of course. I don't see his editor saying "the readers won't go for this".
 

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I have a mixed protag. I've described her as having curls, green eyes, and at one point "golden" skin (I'm writing YA Sci-fi and I'm having a hard time with skin tone colors...)
Race is rather irrelevant in my book because of the setting. They have plenty of other forms of prejudice that matter more in the story. Her friend / sidekick is black, but I just said he had "dark skin". A friend of hers has red hair and that's all I wrote about her, but I envision her like my friend's pretty little daughters who are something like half irish, half filipino. They've got dark skin, red hair and freckles.

I envision my secondary MC to look hispanic, but I never explained much more than to describe him being good looking and having black hair and brown eyes. I envision a girl he dates as being mixed- she looks asian-european. I doubt I'll write more about her looks than that she is good-looking and has dark hair.

My leader is named "Minh" and I say she looks small standing next to her husband. I envision her as being asian and her husband as sort of a tall ruddy cheeked german-looking guy, but I don't mention that. The husband has a son by a different woman and the son has blond hair. Let the reader figure it out.

Based on how I wrote it, the reader is going to envision whatever they want, honestly. And I like it that way. If my readers want to populate the world with nothing but white and slightly tan characters, they are welcome to it. If they want to envision every dark-haired person as asian or something else, they can do that, too.
 
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AutumnKQ

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Huh? How so?

Are you trying to suggest you were saying one should only mention ethnicity if it's important to the plot?

Practically speaking, if you're publishing for an American audience, and you envision you're character being something other than white, whether that's important to the story or not, you need to mention it if you want readers to envision her as something other than white.

And sometimes it's still not enough...

My thinking is that if race is an important issue in the plot, then the reader will figure it out. If it isn't an important of the plot, then why dictate what the reader should imagine? I think people like to imagine the world for themselves.
 

kuwisdelu

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My thinking is that if race is an important issue in the plot, then the reader will figure it out. If it isn't an important of the plot, then why dictate what the reader should imagine? I think people like to imagine the world for themselves.

If they want to imagine the world for themselves, they can write their own novel, can't they?

When you don't read about very many characters who look like you, sometimes it's nice when an author acknowledges when one of them does, even if it's not important to the plot.
 
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