Permission to use song lyrics in book?

The_Grand_Duchess · Apr 1, 2007

chawil said:
This whole discussion seems insane. Surely you can quote from any work so long as you identify the author and your quote is part of a legitimate original work. Song lyrics are freely available for download on the internet so why all the fuss? It isn't as if you're making a recording of the song or offering the lyrics for sale as lyrics.

If this is the case then any quote from any work, including prose and poetry, should be cleared AND paid for if used by anyone, in which case things would become very sticky indeed, particularly for critics, academics and students who have quote published copyrighted material extensively.

Umm, actully you do have to pay when you use other pieces of prose and poetry in your work if they're not in the public domain. So if you use a snippit of a poem form 1850 or something then no, you don't have pay but if you use a poem from 1970 then yes, you owe someone money.

Of course this only really applies to money making operations ie books for publication. Acadamia is a diffrent beast entirly and really has no place in this discussion/

And technically everytime you download a song from a music sharing website you're stealing. That's why napster got shut down orginally and now you have to pay for it.

I was thinking about Stephen King when I stumbled across this thread too. He does use a lot of songs in his books but then again, he's Stephen King.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Apr 1, 2007

chawil said:
Surely you can quote from any work so long as you identify the author and your quote is part of a legitimate original work. Song lyrics are freely available for download on the internet so why all the fuss? ... If this is the case then any quote from any work, including prose and poetry, should be cleared AND paid for if used by anyone, in which case things would become very sticky indeed, particularly for critics, academics and students who have quote published copyrighted material extensively.

Okay, order of business.

Do you realise that your very first post on AW is dangling from a two-year-dead thread? The topic's been approached better since, & in various approaches & specific applications.

You basically define "copyright" & then deny that copyright protection exists. That's either totally nuts, or cheaply argumentative.

There's a big difference between citing a work, quoting a work within "fair use," & ripping off a substantial part of the work -- yes, songs exist in all their parts, & publishing the lyrics is theft. (Also, musicians have been sued blue for citing mere passages without permission: look into the suits around "My Sweet Lord," "Surfin' Bird," & "Can't Touch This.")

Speaking from your utter lack of understanding, you're about a centimetre away from advising people to go ahead & commit a crime, based on some instances of other people committing similar crimes. Great start!

underthecity · Apr 1, 2007

Shara said:
underthecity, if you have a publisher, then they can probably help you get the necessary permission.

Thanks, but it's been since early 2005 since I posted. I have long since abandoned the idea of using the song lyrics in the book, which came out December, 2005.

As has already been stated, you need permission to quote song lyrics - without permission, you could be entering a litigation nightmare.

And you're absolutely right, and chawil is absolutely wrong. And if you attempt to use song lyrics in your book without permission any legitimate publisher will require the permission. ("Legitimate" meaning "non-vanity.")

I supplied this info, and consquently got a letter back denying permission. I got the impression that had I been a famous writer with a print run of thousands worldwide, instead of a little short story writer whose story would be read by maybe a couple of hundred people in the UK . . .

Famous writer or no, whoever owns the rights to a Hendrix song has final say in how they will be used in publication. It's possible that even if you were Danielle Steele they still could have denied it.

Since then, though, I have a new respect for Stephen King, who's written a few novels with song lyrics scattered throughout. Much time and energy must have gone into getting permission for so many. But then he's Stephen King, and who's going to deny him permission?

Yes, but you'll also notice in the beginning of the book there is a listing of permissions granted for usage of each of those lyrics. In my copy of The Shining, the permission is at the bottom of the page (with the lyrics) in a footnote. In his earliest works, King probably sought permission and paid himself. Later, after he became famous, his publisher likely did it for him. Christine must have cost a fortune.

allen

Deleted member 42 · Apr 1, 2007

chawil said:
This whole discussion seems insane. Surely you can quote from any work so long as you identify the author and your quote is part of a legitimate original work. Song lyrics are freely available for download on the internet so why all the fuss? It isn't as if you're making a recording of the song or offering the lyrics for sale as lyrics.

If this is the case then any quote from any work, including prose and poetry, should be cleared AND paid for if used by anyone, in which case things would become very sticky indeed, particularly for critics, academics and students who have quote published copyrighted material extensively.

If the work is published, you pretty much do have to have permission; there's some leeway, but only some, for academic works, but more often than not, if it's a book length study, yeah, you have to get permission.

I've never ever been turned down for a right's request, by the way.

There's an FAQ about this very subject right here.

blacbird · Apr 1, 2007

Medievalist said:
I've never ever been turned down for a right's request, by the way.

I know writers who have, however.

caw

Deleted member 42 · Apr 1, 2007

blacbird said:
I know writers who have, however.

caw

Yes; frankly I suspect part of the time they're turned down because of the way they query; I'm speaking now from the standpoint of someone who has requested thousands of individual rights.

Sometimes the price is too high--once we requested rights to use a publicity still of a recent movie in a CD-ROM and they quoted a fee for the single black and white image that was almost our entire still image budget.

Kreez · Jul 15, 2009

Singer's name

I know this forum is old, but what are the rules on a singer's name? In a story I wrote, someone asks "What is this music called?" another character answers something like "I dunno, it just says Hendrix on the disc."
No more details are given. It never specifically mentions guitar music or Hendrix being someone's name. The reader can choose to assume it's Jimi Hendrix or or that the disc's title refers to something else.

Is this grounds for lawsuit?

Thanks so much!

katiemac · Jul 15, 2009

Kreez said:
I know this forum is old, but what are the rules on a singer's name? In a story I wrote, someone asks "What is this music called?" another character answers something like "I dunno, it just says Hendrix on the disc."
No more details are given. It never specifically mentions guitar music or Hendrix being someone's name. The reader can choose to assume it's Jimi Hendrix or or that the disc's title refers to something else.

Is this grounds for lawsuit?

Thanks so much!

Kreez, no problems there. The only concern is you might want to think about whether or not the singer you're considering using will date your book in 5, 10 or 50 years.

Kreez · Jul 15, 2009

I see. Well that's good to know, thank you. One more question about music in books.

What if I were to have partial lyrics to a song? For example, the character hears some music in the background but the surroundings are too loud for him to hear the lyrics clearly. So he hums something to the effect of "I haven't seen the rain" while he's waiting.
It's referring to CCR's Have you ever seen the rain song. But is this too obvious and therefore infringing?

Gentle Giant · Jul 16, 2009

I'm new here (second post!) and this thread is a goldmine for me because my current work in progress has not only song quotes but also quotes from movie scripts. The lead character is a media hound, the media provide one of his frames of reference in the world, and he finds truth in these excerpts. I understand that rights will need to be obtained, and a publisher may balk, but I do think they are integral to the story and true to the character's world. Paraphrasing would be a poor substitution. I don't know if this means I'm dooming my book from ever seeing the light of day, but I do know I plan to cross the rights bridge when I come to it, and continue with my manuscript as is. (I'm 32,000 words into it, and most of the quotes come earlier in the book as I'm establishing the character and his beliefs; now that I'm in the thick of the plot, there haven been few, if any, further quotes, but I wouldn't be surprised if one came at the climax and/or end.)

newgreekwriter · Oct 21, 2009

Eek. I would copy a second version of your story, taking out the certain quotes. My MC is a musician, so obviously, she sings songs from other singers. I sent the manuscript out with original song lyrics, not having any problems...so far...yet, I am also editting it by taking out the lyrics.

Just have two version to be safe. ;-)

Barbara R. · Oct 21, 2009

You have to locate the copyright holder of the song and ask for permission. There's usually a fee involved. It's a pain and an expense, which is why it's better to avoid quoting songs if you possibly can.

Strange Days · Oct 21, 2009

Ok, I do have a few lyrics the third book of my WIP, so I'm trying to read all the posts here and figure safe way out (literary merits of song usage put aside for the purpose of this)
you are safe if:
1) The line that you quote is the exact title of the song.
2) Paraphrase. (and here you can describe the "plot" of the lyrics and tune/arrangement)
Is that correct?

newgreekwriter · Oct 22, 2009

Paraphrase? Cite your source as well. (I have done this in my story too).

"Hey that one line about that girl, you sang that pretty swell!"
"Thanks. It's just Singer's 'Title'" <---is that what you mean by paraphrase?

Strange Days · Oct 22, 2009

newgreekwriter said:
Paraphrase? Cite your source as well. (I have done this in my story too).

"Hey that one line about that girl, you sang that pretty swell!"
"Thanks. It's just Singer's 'Title'" <---is that what you mean by paraphrase?

I mean, something like that:

"...There was a muted soundtrack to the exercises- some song about a mighty man named Joe, performed by the same female voice Jerome heard at the Kras Stadion a day before.* The rock-n-roll tune looped on, trapped in a stereo system..."

* "Mighty Joe" by Shocking Blue. Music and Lyrics by R. Van Leeuwen, 1968.

newgreekwriter · Oct 22, 2009

Haha, your example is more detailed than mine! I mean it seems all right. You're not placing the title and everything out there. It's like one of those things you either you understand as the reader (the hint) or not.

auntybug · Oct 22, 2009

This is odd. I knew there was a thread about this because I had questions myself. I found the thread in my subscriptions which had a post with useful links & it was yours. Sorry, I didn't read though the whole thread - maybe it's already been done. I actually used one of the links & successfully contacted a lawyer. The response I got back was that they would wait until a publisher wanted the book then they wanted to know projected sales & what the price of the book was going to be set at before they gave me a price. Needless to say, I concentrated querying on something else. People fought me on it here but the lines that were used made the book to me and my readers. I wouldn't mind paying for the rights because the writer obviously deserves it. It's just on the back shelf for now.

Strange Days · Oct 22, 2009

newgreekwriter said:
Haha, your example is more detailed than mine! I mean it seems all right. You're not placing the title and everything out there. It's like one of those things you either you understand as the reader (the hint) or not.

True.

Also in my WIP I have an episode:

"...-Silly bully boys, they annoyed Agrippa.., - Van Der Schoell smirked, - The same old story…
-What’s that?
-Nah, just from one old song. Don’t pay attention…"

I wonder if I can get away with the above... (Originals: "Silly bully boys, Agrippa they annoyed" from "Bully Boys" and "The same old Story" from "The same old Story- both by Martyn Jacques and Tigerlillies)

blacbird · Oct 22, 2009

Strange Days said:
True. Also in my WIP I have an episode:

"...-Silly bully boys, they annoyed Agrippa.., - Van Der Schoell smirked, - The same old story…
-What’s that?
-Nah, just from one old song. Don’t pay attention…"

I wonder if I can get away with the above... (Originals: "Silly bully boys, Agrippa they annoyed" from "Bully Boys" and "The same old Story" from "The same old Story- both by Martyn Jacques and Tigerlillies)

Regardless of whether or not you can "get away" with it, a more pertinent question you need to answer is "What do I accomplish for my reading audience by doing this?"

I, for instance, don't have clue one who any of these people are, or what the significance of the little exchange is. How many people will? And does it really do anything for your story?

caw

newgreekwriter · Oct 22, 2009

Yes, it all depends on whether it's a very important point to your story. I mean, I didn't understand that example, yet, my music taste is different!

I have read many books where it seems song lyrics were there, in an unobvious manner, and if they were, they were vital to the book (character listening to a song because of a mood, and so on).

I wouldn't worry about it unless an agent advised you not to.

eyeblink · Oct 22, 2009

Some song lyrics are certainly in the public domain, especially those written by "trad." "House of the Rising Sun" is an example. However, particular arrangements of this song are certainly in copyright - that's why Alan Price is the only one of the Animals who gets royalties from their version.

In the UK, if the author died before 1939, then copyright will have lapsed.

Strange Days · Oct 22, 2009

blacbird said:
Regardless of whether or not you can "get away" with it, a more pertinent question you need to answer is "What do I accomplish for my reading audience by doing this?"

I, for instance, don't have clue one who any of these people are, or what the significance of the little exchange is. How many people will? And does it really do anything for your story?

caw

In this particular case, one of the characters methaphorised a situation that had just occurred with the help of a familiar (to him- not to the reader) song. What I tried to accomplish was to color up character's manner of speech here. As for whether is was succesfull or not- well, I won't know untill I finish it and get feedback from betas.

Strange Days · Oct 22, 2009

newgreekwriter said:
Yes, it all depends on whether it's a very important point to your story. I mean, I didn't understand that example, yet, my music taste is different!

I have read many books where it seems song lyrics were there, in an unobvious manner, and if they were, they were vital to the book (character listening to a song because of a mood, and so on).

I wouldn't worry about it unless an agent advised you not to.

Yeah, that makes sense, then. "Quotationism" in general is a trend in modern literature after all... And I enjoy it as a reader.

blacbird · Oct 22, 2009

Just for clarification, I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't use pop culture quotes or references, only that you should be conscious of the question and be able to answer it to your own satisfaction. I've seen too many manuscripts where these kinds of references were "dropped in" without any real consideration of purpose.

caw

Strange Days · Oct 22, 2009

blacbird said:
Just for clarification, I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't use pop culture quotes or references, only that you should be conscious of the question and be able to answer it to your own satisfaction. I've seen too many manuscripts where these kinds of references were "dropped in" without any real consideration of purpose.

caw

That makes sense, of course. But (irrelevant to the topic of song quotations) a few times it happened when I wrote a sentense, which, after rational consideration, served no particular purpose. I removed it. Or replaced it. Without it though, the whole extract "read" differently: was harder, dryer, didn't "ring" as it should have... I'm kind of really puzzled about those: if I cannot formulate what those sentenses bring- do they REALLY bring anything at all?

Permission to use song lyrics in book?

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