Past vs Present

Kessar · Feb 2, 2015

Say something is still here, but you are writing in past, should go past or present?

For example:
[FONT=&quot]He is covered in tattoos, so much so it is hard to discern one from the other.

Should I do is or was in this sentence when the man is clearly still there at this current moment of time...hoping I am describing this well enough for you guys to understand.[/FONT]

morngnstar · Feb 2, 2015

Was. It's true that he both is and was covered in tattoos, but it's probably more relevant that he was. It affected how other characters perceived him at the time.

MttStrn · Feb 3, 2015

If the book is in past tense, then it should be "He was covered in tattoos..."

King Neptune · Feb 3, 2015

Kessar said:
Say something is still here, but you are writing in past, should go past or present?

For example:
[FONT=&quot]He is covered in tattoos, so much so it is hard to discern one from the other.

Should I do is or was in this sentence when the man is clearly still there at this current moment of time...hoping I am describing this well enough for you guys to understand.[/FONT]

I agree.

[FONT=&quot]He [FONT=&quot]wa[/FONT]s covered in tattoos, so much so it [FONT=&quot]wa[/FONT]s hard to discern one from the other.[/FONT]

Maybe he is still covered with tattoos, but it is easier to describe it as something that was observed when one last saw him, which was in the past.

angeliz2k · Feb 3, 2015

We had a similar question not long ago, about a forest.

If you're using past tense, then use "was". The tattoos, like the forest from another poster's question, may still be here right now in the present; but you aren't talking about the forest or the tattoos as they are in the present, you're talking about them as they were in the past. The forest is a better example than the tattoo in this case: even if the forest is still there, it has changed since the moment your story took place (it's always changing), so you're talking about the forest as it was at that moment.

Gringa · Feb 3, 2015

^^ here's the forest thread

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300255

guttersquid · Feb 3, 2015

Kessar said:
Say something is still here, but you are writing in past, should go past or present?

He is covered in tattoos, so much so it is hard to discern one from the other.

Usually, things that were in the past should stay in past tense, but sometimes it's important to the story to mention that those things still are. There are techniques for doing this. Using your tattoo example:

He was--and still is!--covered in tattoos, so much so it was . . .

He was (and still is) covered in tattoos, so much so it was . . .

Each of the above give a slightly different amount of emphasis.

If he no longer has the tattoos, you could write:

He was covered, at the time, in tattoos, so much so it was . . .

He was covered in tattoos at the time, so much so it was hard . . .

apchelopech · Apr 12, 2015

Perhaps I've missed s/thg in the OP's query but if the work in question is written in the past tense, there will never be occasion for narrative - as opposed to dialogue or a character's internal thoughts - to switch to the present tense, will there?

King Neptune · Apr 12, 2015

apchelopech said:
Perhaps I've missed s/thg in the OP's query but if the work in question is written in the past tense, there will never be occasion for narrative - as opposed to dialogue or a character's internal thoughts - to switch to the present tense, will there?

Correct, it happened in the past and is being recounted, as one retells what happened in the past.

morngnstar · Apr 12, 2015

apchelopech said:
Perhaps I've missed s/thg in the OP's query but if the work in question is written in the past tense, there will never be occasion for narrative - as opposed to dialogue or a character's internal thoughts - to switch to the present tense, will there?

Not entirely. For example, one could write something like this:

The king ordered construction to begin on a new palace. A thousand slaves worked day and night to complete the building by the princess's wedding. Today, that palace stands in ruins, but for one thousand years it was the largest and most magnificent castle in the world.

See, I slipped into present for one verb. You can do that. It says a little something about your narrator when you do, and it is a little distancing, but that's a stylistic choice you can make if you want.

apchelopech · Apr 13, 2015

morngnstar said:
Not entirely. For example, one could write something like this:

The king ordered construction to begin on a new palace. A thousand slaves worked day and night to complete the building by the princess's wedding. Today, that palace stands in ruins, but for one thousand years it was the largest and most magnificent castle in the world.

See, I slipped into present for one verb. You can do that. It says a little something about your narrator when you do, and it is a little distancing, but that's a stylistic choice you can make if you want.

Ah, no, I'd beg to disagree - at least for fiction-writing. It seems to me that if the narrative is in the past tense (as is usual), the narrator - whatever stance she/he has - can't suddenly slip in a bit of present tense. That would signal that the whole story is being told 'now', albeit the events being recounted happened in the past.

Bufty · Apr 13, 2015

Disagree if you wish, but you are wrong.

Of course a narrative sentence can be written in present tense - no matter what other tenses are used - if the writer decides that is how he wishes to write that particular sentence.

apchelopech said:
Ah, no, I'd beg to disagree - at least for fiction-writing. It seems to me that if the narrative is in the past tense (as is usual), the narrator - whatever stance she/he has - can't suddenly slip in a bit of present tense. That would signal that the whole story is being told 'now', albeit the events being recounted happened in the past.

WriteMinded · Apr 13, 2015

Bufty said:
Disagree if you wish, but you are wrong.

Of course a narrative sentence can be written in present tense - no matter what other tenses are used - if the writer decides that is how he wishes to write that particular sentence.

RIGHT!

morngnstar · Apr 13, 2015

apchelopech said:
Ah, no, I'd beg to disagree - at least for fiction-writing. It seems to me that if the narrative is in the past tense (as is usual), the narrator - whatever stance she/he has - can't suddenly slip in a bit of present tense. That would signal that the whole story is being told 'now', albeit the events being recounted happened in the past.

Absolutely correct, but that's a totally legitimate way to tell a story. In fact, it's true. The story is being told as the writer writes it: from his perspective, "now". There are some drawbacks to telling it that way, but it is still one of the creative choices available to a writer.

apchelopech · Apr 13, 2015

Possibly I'm being lost in translation

Of course a writer may choose either the past or the present tense to narrate the story - I've recently finished reading an excellent Robert Harris 'historical' novel, 'An Officer and A Spy' (about the Dreyfuss Affair) which is recounted in the present tense. Except for the narrator's flashbacks, which are in the past tense. The point I sought to make is that narration - especially by an omniscient narrator - may not switch between the past and present tense as the writer pleases. Of course the writer can do so, but his or her editor is unlikely to receive it with alacrity.

Dats wot I fink, anyways.

morngnstar · Apr 13, 2015

apchelopech said:
Possibly I'm being lost in translation Of course a writer may choose either the past or the present tense to narrate the story - I've recently finished reading an excellent Robert Harris 'historical' novel, 'An Officer and A Spy' (about the Dreyfuss Affair) which is recounted in the present tense. Except for the narrator's flashbacks, which are in the past tense. The point I sought to make is that narration - especially by an omniscient narrator - may not switch between the past and present tense as the writer pleases. Of course the writer can do so, but his or her editor is unlikely to receive it with alacrity.

Dats wot I fink, anyways.

No, nobody is misunderstanding what you're saying, you're just wrong. A writer may not switch between present and past tense verbs as they please, but they may as it fits the meaning. Present tense narration can also contain past tense verbs. Example:

Anne walks in out of the rain. She didn't get much sleep last night. Her eyes are tired and bloodshot.

Bufty · Apr 13, 2015

You are wrong again.

An omniscient narrator can write what he pleases and how he pleases and of course he can switch tenses at any time he chooses. And you cannot say how any editor is going to respond to any piece of writing that simply has a tense change somewhere.

apchelopech said:
.....The point I sought to make is that narration - especially by an omniscient narrator - may not switch between the past and present tense as the writer pleases. Of course the writer can do so, but his or her editor is unlikely to receive it with alacrity.

Dats wot I fink, anyways.

guttersquid · Apr 13, 2015

It is permissible to write:

The pioneers settled where the Sacramento River meets the American.

Using the verb meets doesn't pull the story out of past tense.

apchelopech · Apr 13, 2015

morngnstar said:
No, nobody is misunderstanding what you're saying, you're just wrong. A writer may not switch between present and past tense verbs as they please, but they may as it fits the meaning. Present tense narration can also contain past tense verbs. Example:

Anne walks in out of the rain. She didn't get much sleep last night. Her eyes are tired and bloodshot.

So, this example is, we may take it, from a work of fiction written in the present tense. The past tense in the 2nd sentence doesn't alter that aspect (because it's about last night and not now). But from now on (in the narrative), the narrator must stay in the present tense unless and until another past action is recounted. The writer cannot 'choose' to write the next sentence as, eg, 'Suddenly she heard a sound.' Everything - all the way to the end - has to be in the present tense.

apchelopech · Apr 13, 2015

guttersquid said:
It is permissible to write:

The pioneers settled where the Sacramento River meets the American.

Using the verb meets doesn't pull the story out of past tense.

Well, where and when I went to school, we were taught that such a sentence was ungrammatical - the tenses must conform and 'met' must be used. I guess that's not a universal rule.

apchelopech · Apr 13, 2015

Not in any way wanting to bang on about it, but perhaps I could add this part of a summation of a 'past v. present tense' discussion at theeditorsblog.net -
"No matter your choice for the narrative tense—
Be consistent—don’t switch between past and present"

There was also this for what it's worth -
"Be prepared to change from present tense to past in order to see your manuscript accepted by a publisher."

http://theeditorsblog.net/2012/01/31/narrative-tense-right-now-or-way-back-then/

guttersquid · Apr 13, 2015

apchelopech said:
Not in any way wanting to bang on about it, but perhaps I could add this part of a summation of a 'past v. present tense' discussion at theeditorsblog.net -
"No matter your choice for the narrative tense—
Be consistent—don’t switch between past and present"

There was also this for what it's worth -
"Be prepared to change from present tense to past in order to see your manuscript accepted by a publisher."

http://theeditorsblog.net/2012/01/31/narrative-tense-right-now-or-way-back-then/

I'm afraid you misunderstood what the blog said.

"No matter your choice for the narrative tense—
Be consistent—don’t switch between past and present"

This means to keep the overall tense the same throughout the story. In other words, don't change from present to past (or vise versa) from paragraph to paragraph, scene to scene, or chapter to chapter. It has nothing to do with the construct of a particular sentence.

"Be prepared to change from present tense to past in order to see your manuscript accepted by a publisher."

This means nothing more than that you should be prepared to change your ms from present to past to make it more acceptable to some publishers. It has nothing to do with changing tenses within a story or within a particular sentence.

guttersquid · Apr 13, 2015

guttersquid said:
The pioneers settled where the Sacramento River meets the American.

apchelopech said:
Well, where and when I went to school, we were taught that such a sentence was ungrammatical - the tenses must conform and 'met' must be used. I guess that's not a universal rule.

Not only is it not a universal rule, it's not a rule at all.

There is nothing ungrammatical about that sentence.

morngnstar · Apr 13, 2015

apchelopech said:
Well, where and when I went to school, we were taught that such a sentence was ungrammatical - the tenses must conform and 'met' must be used. I guess that's not a universal rule.

No, it's not a rule to keep the same tense throughout a sentence.

I'm watching TV today and saw a movie yesterday.
Let's fix the toaster that broke yesterday.
He tried to keep his eyes on the road.

I can't think of a single grammatical construction that requires tenses to match. Maybe you're thinking of number? The number of a subject and verb must match.

NDoyle · Apr 13, 2015

Here is the opening paragraph from "The Rope," a story of mine, set in the past tense, that appeared in Realms of Fantasy and a best-of-the-year anthology:

The rope was braided out of common halfa-grass, as many ropes are in the Antique Lands. It trailed from a low and broad basket, made of doum-palm fibers but unworthy of further remark. Some length of the rope lay coiled beside this basket. The other end of the rope, which had to be thought of as the far end, stood at present some fifteen yards distant. And this, as will be seen, was worthy of remark indeed.

Past, present, and future! It can be done. Your teachers, apchelopech, were mistaken.

Past vs Present

Kessar

morngnstar

MttStrn

Action is my reward..that and bacon

King Neptune

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Gringa

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

apchelopech

King Neptune

morngnstar

apchelopech

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

WriteMinded

Derailed

morngnstar

apchelopech

morngnstar

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

apchelopech

apchelopech

apchelopech

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

morngnstar

NDoyle

Writer, Editor, Photographer