The Great W1S1 Hey-Do-You-Know-About-This-Market Thread

defcon6000

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Hmm, I can't recall when I sent the first one. Sometime earlier this month. But I did send another one yesterday after what you said.
 

alexshvartsman

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Yes, please feel free to quote my response. In fact, I'll forward it to you via email.
 

defcon6000

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Just received a response for my inquiry I made yesterday:
We are monitoring this situation and have been in contact with the editor regarding the concerns brought forth by members of your online writers' community. After discussing it with him, we do believe that they pay pro rates occasionally, which means our listing will remain as-is.


If your concern is the veracity of his statement that they do occasionally pay pro rates, perhaps you should discuss the issue with him (as we have). You may also consider voicing your complaint with Preditors & Editors (http://pred-ed.com/).
Basically saying: Go bitch to them, not us.

So what now? We already know the editor is going to do a little dance and not offer anything concrete, like how do they determine payment for a story--what are the qualifications?

I may consider something...darker--if you get my drift--to perhaps get them to come clean. 'Cause I'm not going to play this game if it goes nowhere, and I don't plan on submitting to them again.
 

Project Deadlight

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Yeah, I am not that impressed by Duotrope's response to be honest Siobhan. They just sent me a borderline childish response to being caught out saying I was the only one that had complained:

"You are correct. We have been contacted by other members of your writers' community.

However, that doesn't change our position at this time. Any time a market pays pro rates, even if rarely, we include "pro rates" as part of their pay scale. This situation is not unique to The Washington Pastime. We list several that pay one person per year.


Again, we are handling the situation according to the same protocols we have used in other situations. As with all of our listings, we collect and monitor complaints. However, we are not here to debate our practices with you. We have listened to your complaints and will continue to pay attention to complaints that come in."

Do they have some connection to the editors at WP? Because they are taking this really personally.

I really didn't want this to become a big deal but they are sort of making it with their shady responses??! I love duotrope, I don't want to go to war with them!
 

defcon6000

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I really didn't want this to become a big deal but they are sort of making it with their shady responses??! I love duotrope, I don't want to go to war with them!
Me neither.

I say change tactics and try to pin down WP's editor. We'll give him the opportunity to answer our questions, or at the very least, change the guidelines to say that they are a primarily a token market that only pays $2.50 a story. If he refuses, then we call a boycott. And social media being what it is, that can be rather harmful to a zine, especially since they haven't been around long enough to build up a reputation.
 

goldmund

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Well, I think Duo is clean in that they have a system and they stick to it, it's just that their system's faulty.

But what else they could do? I sold a story for a fixed rate of 10$, but it was 160 words, so it's more than a pro rate. Should the market be listed as Pro, if for 5000 words they'd pay 10 bucks as well?

"Pay ranges from Token payment (under 1 US cent per word) to Professional payment (5 or more US cents per word)" is just what it means -- the pay ranges. WP paid token and it paid Pro (if that's true), so the label's correct.
 

Aggy B.

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Well, I think Duo is clean in that they have a system and they stick to it, it's just that their system's faulty.

I think this is true. The problem lies primarily with WP, not Duotrope. Of course their response is kind of disappointing. Could they not simply add a line at the top that emphasizes that the "pro-rate" payment is extremely rare or that it's a flat fee market and rate of pay will depend on length of story. Kind of like they do with pointing out that certain markets charge fees.

On the other hand, I can see why they are getting snippy with y'all. Their system is what it is and allows markets to report a "range" of payment, not just a specific strata. Changing that would make their listings more difficult to navigate and further hinder the usefulness of their service. Not to mention which, they are free. While it does seem like they might be able to find a way to satisfy the complaints about this particular market more readily, they have NO obligation to do so because they are not a paid-for service. If you don't like what they do, you can wade through the internet on your own and see what markets you can turn up.
 

Project Deadlight

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Well, I think Duo is clean in that they have a system and they stick to it, it's just that their system's faulty.

But what else they could do? I sold a story for a fixed rate of 10$, but it was 160 words, so it's more than a pro rate. Should the market be listed as Pro, if for 5000 words they'd pay 10 bucks as well?

"Pay ranges from Token payment (under 1 US cent per word) to Professional payment (5 or more US cents per word)" is just what it means -- the pay ranges. WP paid token and it paid Pro (if that's true), so the label's correct.

I agree. But the issue is more that they turn up on every search for a professional market. And as they also accept any genre they show up all the time when you limit the search to pro. All DT need to do is make sure that if you search for "professional market" you only turn up professional markets, not those that pretend to.

DT could stop this by having a category for token-pro.

Or by simply preventing those that, by their own admission, "predominantly pay token rates" from showing up in pro searches.

Or by not listing any magazine that won't list their precise pay rates the way they don't list any market with no online submission guidelines.

The issue isn't really DT, but they are enabling this and I am slightly shocked that they are so stroppy when asked about being used in this fashion. WP could easily state they are a predominantly token paying market on their DT page and their own page, but they choose not to so as do draw in more subs and gain the prestige that comes with that.

And Aggy, I contribute to DT precisely because they are such an awesome resource that do the hard work for us writers so we can focus on writing. But why do they need to get so huffy when we writers try and let them know when their awesome system is being taken advantage of? It would only take 10 or so WP pastime type markets (pretend pro markets) to turn up on their searches for the whole engine to be undermined.
 

O'Dandelo

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I agree. But the issue is more that they turn up on every search for a professional market. And as they also accept any genre they show up all the time when you limit the search to pro. All DT need to do is make sure that if you search for "professional market" you only turn up professional markets, not those that pretend to.

DT could stop this by having a category for token-pro.

Or by simply preventing those that, by their own admission, "predominantly pay token rates" from showing up in pro searches.

Or by not listing any magazine that won't list their precise pay rates the way they don't list any market with no online submission guidelines.

The issue isn't really DT, but they are enabling this and I am slightly shocked that they are so stroppy when asked about being used in this fashion. WP could easily state they are a predominantly token paying market on their DT page and their own page, but they choose not to so as do draw in more subs and gain the prestige that comes with that.

And Aggy, I contribute to DT precisely because they are such an awesome resource that do the hard work for us writers so we can focus on writing. But why do they need to get so huffy when we writers try and let them know when their awesome system is being taken advantage of? It would only take 10 or so WP pastime type markets (pretend pro markets) to turn up on their searches for the whole engine to be undermined.

There are already several "Token to Pro" markets that clog up the system. If Duotrope added a search option under payscale that was PRO ONLY, much of the problem could be circumvented. None of that "T to P" or "N to P," just pro only.
 

defcon6000

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The issue isn't really DT, but they are enabling this and I am slightly shocked that they are so stroppy when asked about being used in this fashion. WP could easily state they are a predominantly token paying market on their DT page and their own page, but they choose not to so as do draw in more subs and gain the prestige that comes with that.

And Aggy, I contribute to DT precisely because they are such an awesome resource that do the hard work for us writers so we can focus on writing. But why do they need to get so huffy when we writers try and let them know when their awesome system is being taken advantage of? It would only take 10 or so WP pastime type markets (pretend pro markets) to turn up on their searches for the whole engine to be undermined.
Precisely this.

I've also donated to duo, so it's unfortunate to see this behavior from them. And frankly, I don't think it's very unbecoming. We're not telling them to change their system (well I'm not), all we're saying is that WP is not what it seems. As I've said before in the other thread, how many people have submitted to WP under the assumption that, if accepted, they'd receive a pro-payment? And I would bet you most folks have.

If WP were just upfront and honest about what they really pay, then none of this would be a problem. But they won't. And duo isn't helping by allowing them to parade as a pseudo-pro-paying market.

But yeah, we're just going to have to stick it to WP.
 

Aggy B.

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Precisely this.

I've also donated to duo, so it's unfortunate to see this behavior from them. And frankly, I don't think it's very unbecoming. We're not telling them to change their system (well I'm not), all we're saying is that WP is not what it seems. As I've said before in the other thread, how many people have submitted to WP under the assumption that, if accepted, they'd receive a pro-payment? And I would bet you most folks have.

If WP were just upfront and honest about what they really pay, then none of this would be a problem. But they won't. And duo isn't helping by allowing them to parade as a pseudo-pro-paying market.

But yeah, we're just going to have to stick it to WP.

Hmm. I guess I just figured out a long time ago that if a market is listed as "Pay Ranges from Token Payment to Pro Payment" that means they pay a flat fee and the actual breakdown on whether you get "token" or "pro" is the length of the story you submit. There's no "psuedo" about how Duo is reporting WP's status.

That's actually why I never subbed to WP. Or any of the other markets that fall into that category. (Unless it's some place like EDF where I sub very short stories that will pay out at at least $0.01/word.) That's why I don't see that Duotrope is at fault here.

Washington Pastime should list the specifics of their pay on their website and the fact that they don't is extremely dubious. However, Duotrope is reporting accurately on WP's payment.

Aggy, who also donates to Duotrope
 

alexshvartsman

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I can understand Duotrope's position in this. They aren't interested in "policing" markets -- and they do indeed allow a number of other markets to list as Non-Paying-to-Pro even if those guys pay one person per issue or even per year at pro rates.

Oh, and I, too, donate to Duotrope and will continue to do so regardless of their stance on this issue.

Do I think sorting them in such a fashion is a good idea? No, I don't. But I don't run Duotrope, and I don't want to tell them how to do their jobs. We reported the situation to them and they're aware of it now.

As to WP -- I personally will not submit any more work to them unless/until their pay structure is clarified. I don't think organizing any sort of a boycott is necessary, or even realistic. We've made our opinions known here and in the Bewares section of AW. Posting something on Preditors & Editors might be a good idea. Contacting the editors and inviting them to discuss the issue more openly is also a good idea -- as long as that's contacting them, NOT harassing them.

At the end of the day, I think we should get the information out there and then spend our free time on writing stories rather than crusading.
 

Project Deadlight

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I just find it strange that DT contradicted themselves/lied in their email to me? That has shocked me most of all. They categorically said I was the only person to have complained about WP and then in their next email, after I had pointed out that I wasn't, said you are correct without blinking an eye.

If they change their info, great. If they don't I think it would be good just to spread the word that this market is a token market.
 

Polenth

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I don't see there's anything to be gained in mailbombing Duotrope (they've made their position clear, so hassling won't change anything), organising boycotts (which'd probably end up promoting an otherwise unknown market - the reverse of your intent) or trying to engage with the editors. Yes, the 'zine's behaviour is shady and they should be upfront about their payments. It's great that there's a warning about that in the thread in bewares. But you've done all that's really productive to do. Anything else will be using up your time and energy, for no real results.

Bad stuff does happen, from people getting things wrong in emails to markets behaving badly. You can't let that consume your life and drag you down.
 

Project Deadlight

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I don't see there's anything to be gained in mailbombing Duotrope (they've made their position clear, so hassling won't change anything),

a) I don't think anyone has suggested mailbombing Duotrope at any point on this thread.

b) How have duotrope made their position clear? On the one handthey said they can't do anything about this market because I was the only one that complained, thus implying that if more people wrote to them they would act. Then on the other hand they have said lots of people have actually complained (whoops) but they still won't act.

The bottom line is that the market is at fault here, but an interesting side point ifrom this is that there are flaws in the otherwise brilliant duotrope system. I love DT and want them to get better and better. I don't want markets like this exploiting them for their own ends. O'Dandelo's solution is my favourite so far and it applies to all token markets that show up in a pro-search.
 

mhaynes

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[h/t to JL Benet on the B,R&BC forum...]

White Cat is purchasing Sam's Dot.

Not sure what, if any, effect this has on submission strategies. The announcement says that the whole SD staff is transitioning to WC, so perhaps none. Still thought it was worthy of note.
 

Tienci

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Thanks for sharing your TWP experience @Project Deadlight.
As a result of this discussion, TWP has now been added to my ignore list on DT. :)

Sorry you were so misled and may your story find a much greater home!
 

Sagana

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Silly question - I'm confused by markets that say 'we will open such and so a date' and the date has passed, but the site still doesn't say they're open. I've seen 3 like this recently, most recently Abyss and Apex which I know skipped the last reading period because they had too much. They're supposed to reopen in May (that is, now), but the site still says closed. Do you think they're actually open now and just haven't updated the web site?
 

Lillie

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Abyss and Apex are open.

I sent them something a couple of days ago and got a confirmation email from them.