When a novel doesn't gel

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Devil Ledbetter

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I am having a major problem with the novel I'm working on. It's complete, but I hate the ending. I also hate the biggest plot turning point.

I pantsed it in Word, and now I'm revising it using Scrivener. I think this may be the last novel I ever pants. (Please let's not let this devolve into a panster versus outliner thread, though. We've been there already, I'm sure.)

It has great characters with interesting problems, good locations, a lot of great scenes, plenty of tension, but while the pieces are good, it's not hanging together. Part of the problem, I think, is that there are two POV characters whose stories intertwine. I like having two POVs, but I get hung up on whose story it is.

Does anyone have any experience rectifying a novel that didn't want to gel? Are there any exercises I can do to bring it all together? I am new to Scrivener and not super comfortable with it, but it seems like it should have some utility to help me see the forest for the trees.

Right now it's all trees, and I'm lost.

I have no problem with cutting scenes and writing new stuff to make it work, but I'm not ready to trunk this sucker. Any ideas or suggestions will be deeply appreciated.
 

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I haven't dealt with this yet, but if you don't want to give the story some breathing room and come back to it later maybe you could pinpoint where towards the end you start disliking what's going on. From that point in the story think of all the options your characters have and how the different decisions would change the ending or the flow of the plot. Maybe one will lead you in the direction you're looking for.
 

shadowwalker

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Part of the problem, I think, is that there are two POV characters whose stories intertwine. I like having two POVs, but I get hung up on whose story it is.

I would let it sit for a few days, first. Then take a look at each of the POV stories as separate entities. Which one appeals to you more? That could be your main storyline (while acknowledging that both are important). But work on the main storyline first, seeing where the weaknesses and strengths are; once you have that one solidified, then move to the secondary story and work at dovetailing that.
 

AnnieColleen

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For overall story structure, Larry Brooks' storyfix.com blog was a major lightbulb moment for me. He also has a couple of worksheets/checklists that are useful for looking at the big picture.
 

quicklime

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Devil,

I'm not having novel problems, but the beer I'm drinking seems to be making my other problems go away :tongue

I've preached about quiet time before, have you tried the "no car radio" thing? might help you detangle things a bit to just have a lot of dead space. How long have you been blocked?
 

Kerosene

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...fix it.

It almost sounds to me, that you wrote scenes and parts, but not a complete story. You described the parts (the trees), but not the forest.

Our brains are wired, and we're taught to work in parts, so it's natural to feel as your work is disassembled. So maybe a second opinion would greatly help. Someone who can see the whole forest. (Scrivener might be at fault for the organization, that leads you to this. But I wouldn't fret over it)

I don't have much of a problem with "who's story this is". Mostly because my WIP is centered around a single man, while 90% of the content isn't from his perspective. So that question, I've had to champion. Maybe that's a worry you're just pushing around for no reason.
 

rwm4768

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Read through your novel and find out where it starts to go wrong. Better yet, get a beta reader to read your novel and tell you where it starts to go wrong. Once you figure this out, take a good look at the plots and subplots and how the book is developing in general. Then see if you can plot toward a better climax, one that fits better with the story. This won't be an easy process. You might have to rewrite a lot, but if you take the time to do this, you might be able to rescue those great characters and scenes.

I know how it can feel to have a novel that doesn't quite work, though my problems generally show up toward the beginning.

Keep at it.
 

crunchyblanket

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It has great characters with interesting problems, good locations, a lot of great scenes, plenty of tension, but while the pieces are good, it's not hanging together.
I had this same problem with my current WIP. Mine's not complete yet, but I had to take time away from it (writing a short story, in my case) and come back a little later in order to figure out exactly what wasn't working. I found that I was too close to my world and my characters to see the story objectively.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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It sounds like there's a hidden flow problem. Somewhere there's a should happen that didn't. Showing it to a trusty beta might help. Putting it aside for a month (I know that's tooth grinding) may give you enough perspective.

You might also consider the story as it is in your mind (rather than how it is on paper) go over the characters and events and see if somewhere something happened in the wrong direction.

An alternative is that it might not be what you are saying but how you are saying it. Something may come across in a good light that you would rather present as bad or vice-versa.

It's also possible that there's one little detail niggling at you, Princess and the Pea like that's making the whole thing uncomfortable.
 

Bufty

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That's rough, Devil.

Your hating the ending is interesting. Why do you hate it?

Most endings are inevitable because the story has driven the characters and events to their conclusion.

Do you feel the ending is weak because the events have not been strong enough to lead to this particular ending or does the conclusion simply not relate to the events?

Just popping questions out there for you.

Good luck.
 

GeekTells

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When I get stuck on how to get where I know I'm going (good luck parsing that, but it makes sense to me), I cogitate until I can see the how. I'll let it sit, worry at it, think, and most of all, work on it when I'm going to sleep. So far, that's worked for me several times.

More recently, I found myself very unhappy with a certain part of a story. Several weeks of going through the steps described above didn't help. What did help was having a writing friend read what I had—I hadn't released to it to my beta readers because I was so unhappy with it—and he took me to the woodshed.

It was just what I needed and I am quite excited about this story again.

I don't know if that's an option for you, but at the very least talk to your best and most honest beta readers about it. Hopefully they'll help you put your finger on what's bugging you.

Good luck!
 

Devil Ledbetter

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Sounds like it's time for a second opinion. Got a trusty beta who will tell you what's wrong with it?
My trusty writing partner is in the midst of a rewrite-resubmit (WOOT!) so there is no way I'm hitting him up for this right now. He's been begging to read it for almost a year now. My timing couldn't be worse.

I would let it sit for a few days, first. Then take a look at each of the POV stories as separate entities. Which one appeals to you more? That could be your main storyline (while acknowledging that both are important). But work on the main storyline first, seeing where the weaknesses and strengths are; once you have that one solidified, then move to the secondary story and work at dovetailing that.
Shadowwalker, this concise post of your provided me with such clarity that upon reading it I almost immediately realized the main problem with my book.

I wrote the two POVs separately (an approach that helps me maintain POV character voice, but apparently has a huge downside :tongue ) then pieced them together. The protagonist was always supposed to be Character A. But Character B has a bigger personality, bigger problems and more to overcome than Character A. Yet the book is structured as Character A's story. It's not that this couldn't work, but I see now that this is the major sticking point and why it's not working as is.

The story falters after Character B is killed. His death is a great scene that sets Character A on a crucial trajectory of growth and change (which is why I've felt stuck with keeping it). But I've never felt that Character B's plot threads were resolved in a satisfying way, and the ending falls flat without him.

For overall story structure, Larry Brooks' storyfix.com blog was a major lightbulb moment for me. He also has a couple of worksheets/checklists that are useful for looking at the big picture.
I will definitely look into that.

I've preached about quiet time before, have you tried the "no car radio" thing? might help you detangle things a bit to just have a lot of dead space. How long have you been blocked?
I will try this, too. I've been in a standoff with this novel since February. I've given it huge chunks of "drawer time." I've pulled it out and edited chapters, but my problem with it has always been "the bigger picture."

It's like I'm reorganizing closets and wondering why that's not addressing my architectural problem.

I'm trying to come to grips with the idea that you are seeking answers out of a box. I'm speaking metaphorically, and probably out of turn, meaning, out my ass. I know you aren't saying that, but I'm sensing you wish you could find some magical key to unlock whatever's holding that novel back. You wish Scrivener's had some utility to help you see the forest. . .my problem, Devil, is that I am not willing to admit that one's writing can be deconstructed and then reconstructed, according to some utility or theory or formulaic model.
I'm not sure how you got this from my post. I know there isn't a quick fix for the quagmire this novel is in. What I'm seeking are some different approaches, since the approaches I've been using (pantsing it and endless editing) haven't resolved the problem.

...fix it.

It almost sounds to me, that you wrote scenes and parts, but not a complete story. You described the parts (the trees), but not the forest.
What I seem to have is two complete, intertwined stories that don't hang together well, and both character arcs have unsatisfying endings. Ooh, the truth hurts.

I don't have much of a problem with "who's story this is". Mostly because my WIP is centered around a single man, while 90% of the content isn't from his perspective. So that question, I've had to champion. Maybe that's a worry you're just pushing around for no reason.
This thought helps a lot. I have to accept that at heart it's Character B's story and probably the biggest flaw is that it's mainly structured around Character A.

It sounds like there's a hidden flow problem. Somewhere there's a should happen that didn't.
Or a shouldn't have happened that did. I'm going to work on an outline where Character B either doesn't die, or doesn't die at the point where he dies now. I think that will open up a lot of good possibilities for a more satisfying ending.

Showing it to a trusty beta might help. Putting it aside for a month (I know that's tooth grinding) may give you enough perspective.
I'm big on putting stuff aside (I call it "drawer time"), but I think I may have put this aside almost too much, to the point where I'm not in the thick of it. I wrote it in the summer and fall of '11 and wove it together early this year, and I've taken it out and beaten it up off and on, mostly off, through the remainder of this year.

It's also possible that there's one little detail niggling at you, Princess and the Pea like that's making the whole thing uncomfortable.
I think it's that one big detail of Character B's death. But yes, I'm aware there are a few tough peas under the mattress that also need to be dealt with.

That's rough, Devil.

Your hating the ending is interesting. Why do you hate it?
Because Character B deserves a better ending than he gets, and Character A's ending isn't satisfying without Character B.

I hadn't released to it to my beta readers because I was so unhappy with it
This is precisely why I haven't had it beta'd. It's not ready.

I did have my husband read it early this summer. He loved the characters, the time period and a lot of the plot but he also felt Character A's story jumped the shark after Character B's demise. That's probably the diagnosis.

From that point in the story think of all the options your characters have and how the different decisions would change the ending or the flow of the plot. Maybe one will lead you in the direction you're looking for.
This is where I need to start. I must stop editing individual scenes and make an outline. Then I can retain whatever scenes fit, rewrite some others to make them work with the outline, and write the rest from scratch.

You might have to rewrite a lot, but if you take the time to do this, you might be able to rescue those great characters and scenes.
Yes, I have a major rewrite ahead. Fortunately, I still love these characters enough that I can look forward to it rather than dread it.

I had this same problem with my current WIP. Mine's not complete yet, but I had to take time away from it (writing a short story, in my case) and come back a little later in order to figure out exactly what wasn't working. I found that I was too close to my world and my characters to see the story objectively.
I think a big part of my problem has been that when I give this sucker drawer time I am coming back without a new perspective. This is why I came here looking for some different approaches.

Thanks, everyone. Your posts have been most helpful!
 
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leahzero

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Devil, just want to chime in on how you might use Scrivener to help you edit.

I divide my Scrivener projects into scenes. Each scene is a document, which becomes a note card in corkboard view. I give each scene a descriptive title and summary on the card. Always fill these out! Corkboard mode is too useful. Then I add keywords to color the cards according to some scheme--in my novel with 4 rotating POV characters, each one gets a keyword. In my novel with only 1 POV, each major plot thread gets a keyword.

So when I glance at the novel in corkboard mode, I have an instant bird's eye view of the plot without having to outline.

I also have a few saved searches in my Collections tab for stuff I know is problematic--like, a search on a minor character's name, so I can see every time that person pops up. I put text in [brackets] when I know it'll need to be changed or fact-checked later, so I have a search saved for that. And I have searches for stuff like: show every scene which contains both characters X and Y (who are tagged in the scenes with keywords). Etc. etc.

All of this gives you macro views of the novel that you can't really accomplish with Word. It's awesome.

Using the corkboard to outline before you write is also incredibly helpful. In your next project, I strongly suggest trying this--lay out blank cards for future scene ideas or whatever, then rearrange them as you go, and you'll magically have an outline.

Hope this gives you some ideas.
 

cbenoi1

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> I think, is that there are two POV characters
> whose stories intertwine.

Are we talking about a buddy story here (ex: Shrek), or two different people experiencing the same events in different ways (ex: Best Defense, Trading Places, Freaky Friday)?

Is there some form of ongoing conflict between A and B? If so, how has that conflict been transformed after B's death?


Is there some form of learning B has been passing to A all along? If so, what has been done for that learning to survive passed B's death?



-cb
 
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kkbe

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Originally Posted by kkbe
I'm trying to come to grips with the idea that you are seeking answers out of a box. I'm speaking metaphorically, and probably out of turn, meaning, out my ass. I know you aren't saying that, but I'm sensing you wish you could find some magical key to unlock whatever's holding that novel back. You wish Scrivener's had some utility to help you see the forest. . .my problem, Devil, is that I am not willing to admit that one's writing can be deconstructed and then reconstructed, according to some utility or theory or formulaic model.
Originally Posted by Devil Ledbetter
I'm not sure how you got this from my post. I know there isn't a quick fix for the quagmire this novel is in. What I'm seeking are some different approaches, since the approaches I've been using (pantsing it and endless editing) haven't resolved the problem.
I'm sorry, Devil. Even when I was typing it I was thinking, don't write that, then I went ahead and wrote it anyway. I know you weren't looking for a quick fix. Hopefully, you have some new ideas on how to approach your dilemma. I'm sorry I didn't offer anything of value. Perhaps next time. Again, my apologies.
 
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crunchyblanket

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I think a big part of my problem has been that when I give this sucker drawer time I am coming back without a new perspective. This is why I came here looking for some different approaches.

Fair do's. You sound like you know exactly where the problem lies...it's just a matter of getting in there and fixing it. I know you're pantsing this one, but I wonder if it would be helpful to do a very, very basic outline of a few possible alternative endings/changes to Dead Character's arc?
 

Devil Ledbetter

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Fair do's. You sound like you know exactly where the problem lies...it's just a matter of getting in there and fixing it. I know you're pantsing this one, but I wonder if it would be helpful to do a very, very basic outline of a few possible alternative endings/changes to Dead Character's arc?
Yes, I think before I go any further with it I need a clear outline. I have to give myself a path or it's never going to come together.
 

thothguard51

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DL,

I too prefer to write in multiple PoV's. I like delving into the different characters and how the Protagonist and Antagonist lives are similar, yet different. I also like showing the emotions and lives of some of the secondary characters, through their own eyes and actions instead of just learning about them from the main PoV's.

Still, for me, when it comes down to the story, it's still all about one character and what they wanted and how they achieved their goal, whatever that goal maybe. All the other PoV's are just along for the ride, so to speak, even if their stories are important to the main PoV achieving his or her desires, needs, wants, or dreams...

If that makes sense.

I have had problems in the past where a minor PoV becomes so strong a personality that they seem to take over the story and it will drift from the true storyline. I have had to back up and regroup to keep on the original storyline and plot points. But I did not forget that character, as I saved those parts to use in another story, their own story, someday...

I did not want to rewrite. Sometimes I could not bare to go back and dump what was not working. But if I could not stomach the parts that are not working, how could I expect the reader to stomach the same. In the end, I think my story is the better for taking the time to regroup and fix...

If that makes sense...
 

Lyxdeslic

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Well, I'm all for echoing some others: turn it over to a trusted beta. ;)

In all seriousness, sounds like it's time to ask your characters what they feel/think. Do one of your constructive character interviews and get to the heart of the matter. If they know what's up, wahlah, you'll know.

The mind is an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.

Lyx
 

BethS

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I wrote the two POVs separately (an approach that helps me maintain POV character voice, but apparently has a huge downside :tongue ) then pieced them together.

Speaking as a pantster who writes multi-POV with intertwined plots...

I think what you said there may be the crux of where it went wrong (and I guess you've already figured that out). For myself, in order for all the separate plot arcs to gel together, I have to bounce back and forth between them. They build off one another. There's no way I could write them separately and have the story make any sense.

Good luck with the fix!
 

BarredOwl

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Sounds like you've gotten some great advice. I personally second the downtime. Walking helps me a lot (no music, and no forced thoughts). I walk until I want to turn back, then go on for another 15 minutes. For some reason this produces lots of ah-ha moments for me. The second place is the shower. heh! *shrug*

Best of luck!!
 

Emily Winslow

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Yes, I think before I go any further with it I need a clear outline. I have to give myself a path or it's never going to come together.

I sometimes outline before I write. I ALWAYS outline after I write.

I look at the first draft and list by chapter: location, POV, subplots touched upon. Just looking at that summary often makes both the problems and solutions completely clear.
 

mayqueen

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Maybe I won't be able to explain this. Maybe it will be useless advice. Maybe it will help. I don't know. I also write multi-POV with lots of twisty plots. When I'm editing, something that helps me is to get a gigantic piece of paper and physically draw out the plot points. I can't even begin to explain in words what this looks like (hot mess), but the process of doing it helps me think through the plot points, multiple character arcs, and other issues I run into. The end result isn't actually very useful because it's pretty much unintelligible, but the physical act is helpful. I'm a visual person, so I like having that exercise.

It sounds, though, like you may have identified one of the places you might revisit (character B's death). Maybe mapping out on paper what happens to character A after that will help?

Again, maybe this is terrible advice. But I've found it works.

In addition, someone else has mentioned Larry Brooks. The exercises in his Story Engineering are really helpful.
 

a_sharp

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For overall story structure, Larry Brooks' storyfix.com blog was a major lightbulb moment for me. He also has a couple of worksheets/checklists that are useful for looking at the big picture.

I will loudly second the motion. Brooks' book "Story Engineering" and his blog blew down the doors for me after 23 months struggling with a similar problem: a great book that didn't hang together. I stopped writing and read, then started over by defining the 9 milestones in my own story. Found a lot of holes, discovered my beloved MC was a stranger to me but Brooks' character questionnaire forced me to dig deeper. Awesome results. Doing something similar may help you decide which character you want to choose as your protag.

Doesn't matter if you're a pantser or outliner, Brooks' approach transcends and includes both approaches.

Beware: Brooks is wordy, opinionated, and his endless analogies may drive you nuts, but he knows what he's talking about. He has the creds, he lives and breathes story, and wants us all to "get it."

So stay with him, because the payoff is huge.
 
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