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Old 11-07-2009, 08:37 AM   #476
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Story, as Teresa Nielsen Hayden is fond of saying, is a force of nature.

How do you know if you're writing well? Your readers will tell you.

Recall that you as the writer are only doing half of the work of creation. Your reader is doing the other half, compiling your words into story.
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:38 AM   #477
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Twisting facts to create fiction is what fiction is all about, right? Besides Brown's books take place in real life locations, just the plot is fiction I'd say. Some of his facts are misleading and some are even wrong. But still, I wouldn't say his books are "very" loosely based on facts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start a debate or something, just trying to better understand your point of view while telling you mine
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:34 PM   #478
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I've seen the Dan Brown argument here more than once. I'll tell the truth I liked The Davinci code because I liked the story. I didn't even think about the writing because I wasn't a writer when I read it. For me it's a literary suspension of disbelief.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:58 PM   #479
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I thought Da Vinci Code was unmitigated Cr*p. But it's nice to know that even stuff this poor can make a best seller / film etc. Gives me hope.
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:30 PM   #480
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Uncle Jim, I just read The Last Real New Yorker in the world. I loved it.

It was strange because an editor asked me about the gangsters who hung out in my father's bar on Tuesday, and I told him about Joe Potatoes who was the guy that drove Albert Anastasia to the Park Sheraton that day.
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:42 PM   #481
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Could you explain it more to me, what you meant by sloppy writing. I mean, I've read almost all of Brown's books (hadn't read his last yet) and I didn't notice any "sloppiness" in regard to what noted. I really admire the way he tells a story, hooks you and still manages to teach you something or two (general knowledge-wise)

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Re: Sloppiness

Conjuring from memory but I can tell you two things Dan Brown did that contributed towards me putting his book down and never picking up another one. (I'm going from memory since I've long given the book away, so some details are a bit sketchy)

Angels and Demons, when Frank Langely was being given the tour of CERN before he was shown the 'case' he was to help out on. He was with the guy in the wheelchair and they were watching the wind tunnel and the scientist who were 'skydiving'. One particularly heavy woman had a square bit of cloth and when Frank asked why she had one, the man explained something to the effect that even that one bit of cloth could slow her speed while falling and she could survive it.

Now, none of that bugged me. I was actually with him. Until he wrote in the book something to the effect of 'Little did Frank know that in 24 hours that information would save his life.'

Ok. As a reader, Dan Brown just insulted me. I figured that it was important. He was the writer and as such, when a writer writes something like that, as a pretty smart reader...I can figure out it might be something that comes in as important later. I did not need Dan Brown to beat me over the head with that. LOOK HERE! THIS IS IMPORTANT! YOU'LL NEED TO KNOW THIS LATER!

The defining moment of me putting the book down was him taking the oh-so-beautiful-and-sexy-and-smart-and-attracted-to-me-dur-dur-dur female companion with him into the Vatican City. He clearly outlined all the rules of even being able to visit there (women had to cover their legs or something) and Frank bulldozed getting his little tanned-brown bunny into the library without any of the soldiers there getting the woman a pair of pants? It was an affront and an insult to let her in there in shorts and they couldn't get her more appropriate clothing if it was that damned important he take her with him to do research?

And if I recall correctly, she (or they) were handling very fragile manuscripts without gloves?

That was Dan Brown (via Frank Langely) flying in the face of tradition and convention and spitting on it. I disliked him then and there (both hims, writer and protag) and put the book down.

To me, that was sloppy writing. Wave away inconvienent stuff because it might get in the way of his SOOPERSPECHUAL characters being SOOPERSPECUAL.

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Old 11-07-2009, 06:31 PM   #482
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Those things you mentioned could bug you and even irritate you, but I don't see that reason enough to not read his novel. You and I may have different tastes and even different limits of what we can accept in our diet, but really, look past those short comings and enjoy the book. I know I do it and give the authors a chance since I'm hoping readers will do the same for me when I get finally to releasing my book. Not that I'm saying I'll write cr*p and expect people to read it, just that if some inconsistencies do manage to slip through.

Best regards.
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:46 PM   #483
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First thing to be aware of is the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
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If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.
Oh yes, that's what happened to me about three years ago. I'm not sure what hurt more--realizing I was a poor writer, or realizing what a nassisitic idiot I was when I thought I was a good writer. Either way, I probably would have felt a little better had I known about this effect before. Interesting.

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Those things you mentioned could bug you and even irritate you, but I don't see that reason enough to not read his novel.
What better reason not to read a novel than because you don't like it? I don't like reading romance in a modern-day setting, but should I read Nora Roberts anyway?

Bearilou gave Dan Brown a chance, and Dan Brown blew it (for her, others might--and do--still enjoy reading him). Nobody can ask much more than that.
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:56 PM   #484
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Negative opinions of people's writing usually ends badly here on AW, and it's Uncle Jim's thread, this whole subject is a bad derail in the making.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:01 PM   #485
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To clarify, I don't think this conversation has gone there yet. I've watched this exact same conversation get ugly is all.

I want to write up not down. I don't want to be as good as Dan Brown, I want to be as good as James D. Macdonald. I want to sell my book because it's good.
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:56 PM   #486
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Well, I'll stop here. I don't want to endlessly discuss something that doesn't matter anyhow. You like Brown? Good for you, if not, then your choice. That's all.

I think we all want to sell books because they're good. I don't see why people might buy a book if it was bad. But to each their own.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:15 PM   #487
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Well, I'll stop here. I don't want to endlessly discuss something that doesn't matter anyhow. You like Brown? Good for you, if not, then your choice. That's all.

I think we all want to sell books because they're good. I don't see why people might buy a book if it was bad. But to each their own.

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To clarify, I don't think this conversation has gone there yet. I've watched this exact same conversation get ugly is all.

I want to write up not down. I don't want to be as good as Dan Brown, I want to be as good as James D. Macdonald. I want to sell my book because it's good.
Something told me to delete my comment as soon as I hit post. Still I forged ahead.

Ehab Ahmed asked why someone would considered Dan Brown a sloppy writer and I provided specific opinion based on my experience.

Ah well. Live and learn. Should have listened to my intuition.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:57 PM   #488
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Believe me it gets uncomfortable and serves no purpose. I reserve judgement on writers here for that reason.

Uncle Jim, I went to the library. They had two of your Circle of Magic books. (I have them now) School of wizardry and Secret of the tower. I'm going to read them over the next few weeks.
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:24 AM   #489
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I never read Brown because his writing goes against everything I believe as a Christian. That being said, WHO CARES? The guy makes money. Go out and write your own books. Make your own money.
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:11 AM   #490
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Believe me it gets uncomfortable and serves no purpose. I reserve judgement on writers here for that reason.

Uncle Jim, I went to the library. They had two of your Circle of Magic books. (I have them now) School of wizardry and Secret of the tower. I'm going to read them over the next few weeks.
Let me just pop in here with an observation.

Uncle Jim is currently pursuing legal action against certain parties for publishing, without permission, additional novels in the Circle of Magic series.

The ones authored by Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald can be found here, at Uncle Jim's Web Site.

There are others, at least two, which are at the heart of the controversy.
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Old 11-08-2009, 01:54 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald View Post
Story, as Teresa Nielsen Hayden is fond of saying, is a force of nature.

How do you know if you're writing well? Your readers will tell you.

Recall that you as the writer are only doing half of the work of creation. Your reader is doing the other half, compiling your words into story.
True.
The writer doesn't give the reader much credit for having a mind of their own.
Everyone who reads a book by the same writer will see the scenery different, the faces of the characters, and the cars, towns, stores, et al.

To many of us give too much info, forcing a direction on readers that we don't need to.

We are, after all, sending the reader on an adventure with our story, let them take the adventure they best invision.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:18 AM   #492
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Something told me to delete my comment as soon as I hit post. Still I forged ahead.

Ehab Ahmed asked why someone would considered Dan Brown a sloppy writer and I provided specific opinion based on my experience.

Ah well. Live and learn. Should have listened to my intuition.
I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable, that's why I stopped my discussion as it no longer served any purpose. I really respect your opinion and your experiences. Thanks for indulging me with your thoughts.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:02 AM   #493
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To many of us give too much info, forcing a direction on readers that we don't need to.
I admit, I try to do that at times.
Perhaps it's a good thing that I'm lazy and forgetful and as such it never lasts more than a page or two before I'm back to my minimalist ways.
I guess I'll find out sooner or later.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:04 AM   #494
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I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable, that's why I stopped my discussion as it no longer served any purpose. I really respect your opinion and your experiences. Thanks for indulging me with your thoughts.
Nono! Totally not a problem but WayneK is older (in terms of time here on the boards) and wiser than I so I bow to his wisdom in this. Tis cool!
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:32 AM   #495
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Nono! Totally not a problem but WayneK is older (in terms of time here on the boards) and wiser than I so I bow to his wisdom in this. Tis cool!
Good! I was starting to get worried that I might have stepped on some toes on my first days. I'm glad you're cool about this because I was hoping to be able to make writing friends from here.

Best regards, Ehab.
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Old 11-08-2009, 04:26 AM   #496
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...I want to be as good as James D. Macdonald.
No, you don't. You want to be better. My publishers already have a guy who's exactly as good as me.

Heck, I spend my days trying to be better than James D. Macdonald. Why not you, too?
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:10 AM   #497
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See, even UJ wants to be a better writer.

You guys should be inspired by that statement.

And, you should feel that way, always, about your writing, until, THE END.
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:15 AM   #498
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:43 AM   #499
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Let me just pop in here with an observation.

Uncle Jim is currently pursuing legal action against certain parties for publishing, without permission, additional novels in the Circle of Magic series.

The ones authored by Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald can be found here, at Uncle Jim's Web Site.

There are others, at least two, which are at the heart of the controversy.
Am I reading pirated books or something?

They have his name on them.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:57 AM   #500
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Am I reading pirated books or something?

They have his name on them.
No, you're fine. Circle of Magic Books 1 - 6 are the original series. The books that are under a legal cloud are numbers 7 and 8.

All of the books have Debra's and Jim's names on them, although having their names on 7 and 8 came as a surprise to them.
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