Mainstream views of beauty

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Kitty27

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Ah yes, hottentot Venus. There was a French film about her last year.

Venus-Noir-2010.jpg


Isn't it interesting how normal she looks?

Yes,it is. How times have changed. What was regarded as abnormal back then is the body my friends would KILL to have and is being celebrated in mainstream media.
 

backslashbaby

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Ah yes, hottentot Venus. There was a French film about her last year.

Venus-Noir-2010.jpg


Isn't it interesting how normal she looks?

OMG. I'd only seen contemporary drawings of her, which were clearly insane seeing the real person. Not that we didn't know they were hideously insane about how they represented PoC, but it still shocks me so much.

She's so lovely.


Kitty, I absolutely think Black culture paved the way for me to love my booty, muscular legs and big chest (unfake, so the surrounding structure isn't tiny). That and Latino culture. Props to them too! Jennifer Lopez and Beyonce have been a gift to white girls, I tell you.
 

crunchyblanket

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Thick will always be the gold standard in terms of Black body type beauty. Small waist,big thighs and a round behind are IT.

Man, that explains a lot. It's usually black guys and Latin guys who compliment me. Might have something to do with the fact that I there's a full ten-inch different between my waist and hips, and have muscular thighs. They've never seemed hung up on the fact that I have a big bum and no boobs either.
 

Anjasa

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Oh and second the whole "real women have curves" being nonsense. So annoying. Real women identify as women.

So true. I was a bigger lady when those ads first started coming out, and I was so offended. Disparaging the other end of the spectrum doesn't make things better for you - and even if it did, it would do so at the expense of the other group.

I really don't feel that women should be tearing one another down based on their looks, especially not more than we do already.
 

T. Trian

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Interesting discussion. There's one thing about the mainstream media that confuses me a bit when it comes to current beauty standards:
When you look at pictures of hot guys, they are almost always slim but also muscular, you know, the swimmer body type that has just the right amount of muscle and bodyfat is below 10% so you can see their six packs. In a word, their body types are functional (not so muscular that they don't fit through the door but strong enough to climb a rope, sprint 400 meters in 60 seconds, and carry an unconscious person out of a burning building. You get the picture).

Then we have the women. Sometimes various mediums go for the anorexic stick-like catwalk models, sometimes the hefty, big-booty types. Thing is, neither of those two body types are particularly functional when we're discussing physical capabilities. Why don't modeling agencies and other media use female models who are as athletic as the male models? Why is skinny and "a little bit extra" acceptable but fit and muscular is not?

I know most females start getting health problems when their bodyfat dips under 15% or so, I'm not talking about how female fitness competitors look during their performances (where they drop their bodyfat to around 10% or less for a little while and when the contest is over, they start eating normally again), but rather a physically fit and most of all healthy look. Why is it so rare in mainstream media?

Why is the male ideal healthy and functional and the mainstream female ideal, well, not quite as healthy/functional (meaning women who are too skinny or too heavy may have an increased risk of health problems when compared to an athletic woman with bodyfat around 15-25%)?

I think I'll stop here although I have another rant bubbling under the surface when it comes to (peer) pressure sometimes present in fitness/body building circles where women are expected to be muscular and sinewy and still have D cups and since many women end up with what look more like pecks than breasts, they feel they have to get silicone implants to compensate the effects of low bodyfat levels...
 

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Interesting discussion. There's one thing about the mainstream media that confuses me a bit when it comes to current beauty standards:
When you look at pictures of hot guys, they are almost always slim but also muscular, you know, the swimmer body type that has just the right amount of muscle and bodyfat is below 10% so you can see their six packs. In a word, their body types are functional (not so muscular that they don't fit through the door but strong enough to climb a rope, sprint 400 meters in 60 seconds, and carry an unconscious person out of a burning building. You get the picture).

Then we have the women. Sometimes various mediums go for the anorexic stick-like catwalk models, sometimes the hefty, big-booty types. Thing is, neither of those two body types are particularly functional when we're discussing physical capabilities. Why don't modeling agencies and other media use female models who are as athletic as the male models? Why is skinny and "a little bit extra" acceptable but fit and muscular is not?

I know most females start getting health problems when their bodyfat dips under 15% or so, I'm not talking about how female fitness competitors look during their performances (where they drop their bodyfat to around 10% or less for a little while and when the contest is over, they start eating normally again), but rather a physically fit and most of all healthy look. Why is it so rare in mainstream media?

Why is the male ideal healthy and functional and the mainstream female ideal, well, not quite as healthy/functional (meaning women who are too skinny or too heavy may have an increased risk of health problems when compared to an athletic woman with bodyfat around 15-25%)?
I'm not sure what this has to do with PoC, but....

Why are 'sexy' men the ones who appear physically strong and powerful? Why are 'sexy' women the ones who either have exaggerated secondary physical characteristics such as breasts, or are thin and girlish/childish in appearance? Society values, and considers sexy, an appearance that matches what society values, what it considers the ideal, what it considers the proper role for those people to be.

Also, "athletic" and "healthy" do not correspond to a single body type. See here. And here. And especially here.
 

Ken

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... beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. The only thing that is not cool is criticizing another's body type or making like yours is the only acceptable sort. In a way it's a matter of minding ones own business. Focus should be on oneself. Not on others. Nor are comparisons necessary.
 

T. Trian

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I'm not sure what this has to do with PoC, but....

It was kinda OT but since there was already talk about different body types in popular media and beauty ideals, I went along from there (not sure if I should've just gone and started a new topic in some other room).

Also, "athletic" and "healthy" do not correspond to a single body type. See here. And here. And especially here.

How do you know the heavier athletes are healthy? I believe it's probable if you have a lot of extra weight, eventually something will give and the more weight/strain there is on the body part, the sooner it is likely to give. Or that's what appears logical to me.
I've noticed this in myself as well: when I weighed 70kg/155lbs I could easily run 10km/6,2 miles and do 4-5 sets of 20-25 pull-ups. Now that I'm 89kg/195lbs, my right knee starts acting up even when I just walk from my home to my car. My doctor suspects I have a "cracked" meniscus in the knee joint and now that I'm almost 20kg/45lbs heavier, the pain is much more frequent and when I train, I have to wear a knee brace. The same goes for my back (I have two degenerated and herniated discs = chronic back pain), the pains are far less frequent when my body has less weight to carry.

I guess I was just wondering why many male models look fit and athletic and many female models do not.
 
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Unimportant

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How do you know the heavier athletes are healthy?
It very much depends on how you define 'healthy'. Do you limit it to "T Trian thinks they look healthy" or does it include "able to do a specified set of physical tasks" or is it just "has not been diagnosed with any chronic disease" or is it rather "has no known ailments and is not on any medications"?

But I doubt this is the appropriate place for this discussion, as I doubt your definition would match mine.
 

T. Trian

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Unimportant said:
"able to do a specified set of physical tasks" or is it just "has not been diagnosed with any chronic disease"

That's pretty close to what I was thinking: about a person's general health when taking their weight into consideration (doesn't matter if the extra weight comes from fat or muscle), i.e. does their weight cause health problems for them (which is, e.g. my case which is why I'm trying to cut weight and that way lessen the strain on my already faulty back and knee), and do they suffer from some ailment that is caused by their weight.

I could start a new topic about this if you'd prefer that but I feel this issue we're now discussing is related to mainstream views of beauty. What do you think?

I just... get annoyed when I hear people calling athletic, muscular women "freaks" or saying something like "ew, she looks like a dude." It's as if they expect women to be able to perform some demanding physical tasks as well as men but that they still should look like catwalk models.
Luckily nobody here has said anything like that but I know quite a few people who do think like that and there's probably a (ludicrous) reason why modeling agencies, movie producers etc. favor... well, less physically capable women.
For example there are the Resident Evil movies where Milla Jovovich is the main heroine: a tall, skinny lady who performs amazing physical feats (because of her super powers or some such) that a normal person her size could never do but, say, Ronda Rousey or Cristiane Santos could. But who would cast a woman with a physique like Ronda's or Cristiane's into a mainstream movie/TV show? I'm not saying it has never happened, just that it's all too rare to see a movie/TV show (or book) where the producers have dared to cast a woman who actually looks like she really can do whatever ass-kicking her character does.

That's actually one of the main reasons why Brienne of Tarth was one of my favorite characters in G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice: she was described so that it was credible that she bested men in combat.

I think I've had my say on the subject. I hope it didn't derail the thread and I apologize if it did. I just felt that the discussion revolved around thin and bigger women and that a third group, the muscular athletes, needed a mention too since it's my observation that they are grossly under-represented in the media and often treated with less respect than they deserve (and with less respect than their male counterparts).

I know the road to hell is paved with good intentions which are what I meant, but I hope that's not the case here :)
 

aruna

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A word of warning: in the UK "thick" is a synonym for " stupid". It is not a synonym for plump! Just so you know!

I'm not sure what this has to do with PoC, but....

Why are 'sexy' men the ones who appear physically strong and powerful? Why are 'sexy' women the ones who either have exaggerated secondary physical characteristics such as breasts, or are thin and girlish/childish in appearance? Society values, and considers sexy, an appearance that matches what society values, what it considers the ideal, what it considers the proper role for those people to .

I have a problem with the current use of " sexy " as a synonym for " beautiful". You can be beautiful without being sexy; the word sexy is far too limiting IMO. I personally would consider being called beautiful a compliment, even at my age, if I were that; I would not want to look, or be called, sexy. It's unfortunate that more and more the word is being used as interchangeable for beautiful. It means that even very young girls are trying to look sexy - not a healthy thing.
 

kuwisdelu

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I have a problem with the current use of " sexy " as a synonym for " beautiful". You can be beautiful without being sexy; the word sexy is far too limiting IMO. I personally would consider being called beautiful a compliment, even at my age, if I were that; I would not want to look, or be called, sexy. It's unfortunate that more and more the word is being used as interchangeable for beautiful. It means that even very young girls are trying to look sexy - not a healthy thing.

Likewise, you can be sexy without being beautiful.

Hell, you can even be erotic without being sexy, and cute while being sexy, and beautiful without being cute, and sexy without being hot, and hot without being beautiful, and erotic without being hot, and...
 
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T. Trian

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A word of warning: in the UK "thick" is a synonym for " stupid". It is not a synonym for plump! Just so you know!

A quick OT question: is that strictly a UK thing or is "thick" used for "stupid" somewhere in the States as well?
 

Mr Flibble

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Depends what you mean by physically incapable - for many, many tasks slender =/= physically incapable, male or female (if we're talking deadlifting big weights or something, sure. Other stuff much less so) Even deadlifting size does not always equal lifting ability - look at Ed Coan. Judging/dismissing someone's capabilities because of how they look seems a bit superficial. Better to judge on results? (the whole Hollywood/modelling industry using skinny ladies is a different matter entirely)

As for muscular women being called freaks...are they? Maybe so, but most of the guys I know think, say, Jennifer Ennis is in fact pretty damn yummy.....
 

aruna

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Likewise, you can be sexy without being beautiful.
Absolutely. Goes without saying!
Hell, you can even be erotic without being sexy, and cute while being sexy, and beautiful without being cute, and sexy without being hot, and hot without being beautiful, and erotic wit........
.
True .... But none of those words, with perhaps the exception of hot is currently used as an exact synononym for beautiful. Erotic means exactly what it says, and cute is just, well, cute. Like a bunny!
 

T. Trian

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Depends what you mean by physically incapable...(the whole Hollywood/modelling industry using skinny ladies is a different matter entirely)

I've actually been talking about "the whole Hollywood/modelling industry using skinny ladies" among other things.

I don't know if this is another cultural thing, maybe things are different where you live, but here in Finland at least when, for instance, you see women's underwear ads on shop windows, the models are mostly of the skinny catwalk type. Now I don't know about you or anybody else, but if I had a daughter, I'd hope she'd rather be like Jillian Michaels than like Stella Tennant. Even if we forget about aesthetics for a moment, I would venture a guess that a person who eats healthy food (and enough of it) and keeps themselves fit would be healthier too. And trust me when I say that one doesn't truly appreciate good health until it's gone. That I do know from personal experience, unfortunately.

By the way, if you type "male model" on Google's image search, most of the dudes look like this, this, this, and this. If you ask me, all of those guys look really fit, don't you think? Now, if you type in "female model," do you really see a comparable level of athlethism? Which group (male models and female models) do you think are generally healthier? Not to mention that if you are fit, the number of activities you can enjoy multiplies exponentially.
An example: we went indoor climbing with our boxing team a week or so ago, men and women together, and I guess she'll smack me upside the head for saying this but I was damn proud when K. Trian climbed four walls all the way to the top. She was the only girl who succeeded in that and only two of the fittest guys managed the same. Now, if she was just skin and bones or noticeably overweight (meaning lots of fat, not muscle), she wouldn't have experienced the joy of conquering those walls.

Yeah, I know, I know, different strokes for different folks, not everybody enjoys physical activities (although the friends we have managed to drag along have suddenly realized how much they enjoy training). Just note that I'm talking about my personal opinion here, not declaring the gospel truth. I just feel a little uneasy every time I see media that promotes less than healthy values since often the target audience are (relatively) impressionalbe youngsters.


As for muscular women being called freaks...are they? Maybe so, but most of the guys I know think, say, Jennifer Ennis is in fact pretty damn yummy.....

That, obviously, depends on who you ask. I've just noticed that a lot of people go "daym!" (and not in the good way) when they first see a picture or video of Cris Cyborg. Same goes for some female swimmers who have broad backs, muscular arms, and flat chests. I have a pretty vast circle of friends but perhaps guys who don't find muscular women aesthetically pleasing gravitate towards me for some reason (and I'm not even being sarcastic here).
 
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aruna

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I remember well, back in the 60s, in Guyana, the Miss Guyana contest was constantly won by white girls - even though we had a VAST POC (I mean, like 90%!) population. Nobody seemed to mind, year after year. There weren't even very many POC entrants to the competition. They would go off to Miss World and usually come in as Also Rans.

And then, WHAM. Shakiria Baksh, an Indian girl, won, the first time a non-white girl had ever won. Can you imagine the celebration and excitement in the country?

What's more, Shakira placed third in Miss World.
She went on to an advertising career in the UK. Michael Caine saw her, fell in love, sought her out, wooed her, married her, and the rest is history. They are still happily married, and she's still stunning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakira_Caine

Now, I'm not in favour of beauty contests generally speaking, but Miss Guyana did and does still provide an opportunity for girls to rise out of poverty and somehow change their lives. So I'm all for it, in a backhanded sort of way.

Here's a photo of her with the other Miss World winners. I think she's by far the most beautiful. I'm it sure when the first POC won Miss World; I don't think it had ever happened before 1967, so even to come third was quite something.http://missosology.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89821
 
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aruna

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Hmmm... Since we're on the subject of beauty and black women... And beauty contests reflecting mainstream tastes in beauty... I've been going back in time to those Miss World contests where the contestants were mostly and the winners always white. In 1970, things changed. A black girl, Jennifer Hosten of Gredana, won the contest. That year, South Africa sent two competitors, a black anda white one. The black one came second.
As a consequence, there was a huge hullabaloo. There were cries of racism, and rigging. The favourite had been Miss Sweden.
Here's the story. I remember it pretty well, as it made headlines in Guyana too.
Now, I don't believe that physicsl beauty is something we should take too seriously, as it is ephemeral; but we ARE attracted to it and its interesting to see how hard it was for girls of colour to break into the club.
Here's the Wikipedia story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Hosten


The 1970 contest was held in London, United Kingdom. It began with a row because the organisers had allowed two entries from South Africa, one black, one white. Then during the evening there were protests by Women's Liberation activists and flour was thrown.[1] The comedian, Bob Hope, was also heckled and scarcely raised a laugh.
Even greater controversy then followed after the result was announced. Jennifer Hosten won and the coloured contestant from South Africa was placed second. The BBC and newspapers received numerous protests about the result and accusations of racism were made by all sides. Four of the nine judges had given first-place votes to Miss Sweden, while Miss Grenada received only two firsts, yet the Swedish entrant finished fourth. Furthermore the Prime Minister of Grenada, Sir Eric Gairy, was on the judging panel. Inevitably there were many accusations that the contest had been rigged. Some of the audience gathered in the street outside Royal Albert Hall after the contest and chanted "Swe-den, Swe-den". Four days later the organising director, Julia Morley, resigned because of the intense pressure from the newspapers. Years later Miss Sweden, Majorie Christel Johansson, was reported as saying that she had been cheated out of the title. (In 1979 Eric Gairy was overthrown as Prime Minister because of corruption, favouritism and abuses of human rights.)

Those were the days!
 

fireluxlou

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I have no problem with different shapes, shades and sizes being lauded as beautiful. What does bother me is the 'real women have curves' school of thought - the one that seems to think it's okay to disparage skinny women. Body fascism is body fascism no matter who's in favour.

*deep breath*

That said, all three of those women look really slim to me.

This so much.

I hate the real women have curves, thing it is the kind of thing that digs into your self esteem, that makes you feel less than a woman. I get the same now I've filled out more as I've got older, except it more 'you need to lose weight' even though I'm pretty healthy and exercise (I'll always have big calves like Britney does no matter how much I exercise). My mother likes to say to me that I've gained too much weight now I've finished puberty. She actually said to me the other day that I was at my ideal size at 14. At 14 I didn't have hips or womanly features. I still looked like a 10 year old because of puberty had just begun.
 

shadowwalker

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What's really sad, IMO, is that people constantly look to models as their 'beauty guides', and forget that models are chosen/successful first because their body shape shows off the designers' clothes best. Then they become celebs and suddenly they're the Beautiful Ones. Uh, no - they were just the best clothes hangers.
 

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OMG!

That has to be the saddest, most disturbing picture I've seen in a long, long time. :cry:

We had a thread on it when it was in the news, I think it was locked. That cake is upsetting I'm sorry *hugs* I'll put a warning.
 
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