Literary vs. genre

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maestrowork

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Nice quote mining for the purposes of picking an argument. It's my view of the category label, not a value judgement. Not only that but the rest of the post clearly states that I both understand that others don't share this categorisation and that I don't see the attribute of "literary" as a negative.

Maybe not, but in the same breath you were giving justification to all those people who consider genres pulp, if everything is just "a view of the category label and not value judgment."
 

muddy_shoes

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Maybe not, but in the same breath you were giving justification to all those people who consider genres pulp, if everything is just "a view of the category label and not value judgment."

If others want to make statements about what they think of when someone says they read Horror or SF or Romance, then they're free to. If those statements are about the content then they're not value judgements, if they contain opinions about worth then they are. What I wrote doesn't justify anyone either way.
 

muddy_shoes

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Speaking as a former English student, I thought it was less than perceptive.

It's my perception based on how I hear I've heard it used most. It's a perception I'm aware that others don't share, as I stated. If you disagree with it, cool, feel free to add your perception, however, associating what I wrote with this:

I am tired of this artificial genre-vs-literary fiction stalking horse.

...is pretty unfair seeing as the rest of the post quite clearly makes the point that I see the term "literary" as applying well beyond the "literary fiction" category. In other words, I agree that it's a false distinction. My very first sentence stated my opinion that the label lacks value as a definition.
 

ejbwr

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I personally prefer reading and writing lit fiction over genre.

there's nothing wrong with being a little word drunk. write for yourself, not for the raving masses.
 

whimsical rabbit

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Right. So this thread is still going on.

Okay then.

I'd like to politely indicate (and this is not a personal attack because I, as the poster, am in a position to clarify my own intentions) that I find the word 'masses' offensive, both for my mainstream writing (I also write literary), and for my readers, and it has been used in the other ongoing literary vs genre thread too.

Now the fact remains that these threads don't really serve a purpose. There is no literary versus genre issue. There are good books and bad books, and even that is subjective. It's as simple as that, and I really, really can't figure out why on earth anybody would think that the topic or theme makes the quality. Honestly.

Saying that genre fiction doesn't focus on character is also not fair, and wrong. If we want to stereotype genre, perhaps we can propose that genre mainly focuses on how character is shaped by external stimuli, while in literary it's more esoteric. But this doesn't add or subtract quality to each of them. 'The Silence of the Lamps' is as great in character as Margaret Atwood's 'Cat's Eye'. They just deal with it in different ways.

And, I repeat, I am writing mainstream and literary. I do understand why literary writers are exasperated when accused of snobbery, especially since presumably most of them us love and respect genre fiction.

But when words like 'masses' come into the discussion to describe someone's style and readership, it's hard not to think of the demonic 's' word.

*exists in tiptoe before Priene sees her.*
 
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whimsical rabbit

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Hey, don't bring me into this. I'm feeling mellow and non-confrontational.

Ditto. Just wanted to give my two-cents and leave.

Honestly, I try to avoid these threads like the plague ever since. They serve no purpose other than to have you hanging from specific words, thus ending up arguing with people you get along fine otherwise.
 
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gothicangel

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And, I repeat, I am writing mainstream and literary. I do understand why literary writers are exasperated when accused of snobbery, especially since presumably most of them us love and respect genre fiction.

With you there.

My new book is set around the banking crisis in 2009.

Technically it's a crime novel, and that is how I will sell it to my agent. However, the more I think about it, the more I feel it is mainstream/literary.
 

freelancemomma

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Count me among those for whom genre doesn't resonate. I don't think it's because of intellectual pretensions, just the fact that I'm unable to suspend disbelief in the absence of nuanced, true-to-life characters in real-life settings. Call it a lack of imagination (or perhaps a particular type of imagination), but in order to become engrossed in a book, I have to believe that the story has either happened in the past, is happening now, or could happen tomorrow.

Freelance
 

Deleted member 42

Count me among those for whom genre doesn't resonate. I don't think it's because of intellectual pretensions, just the fact that I'm unable to suspend disbelief in the absence of nuanced, true-to-life characters in real-life settings. Call it a lack of imagination (or perhaps a particular type of imagination), but in order to become engrossed in a book, I have to believe that the story has either happened in the past, is happening now, or could happen tomorrow.

OK.

That does it.

Many of you need to go out and read a lot more than you're reading.

Many of you are using words without knowing what they mean. This is one of the greatest of writerly sins.

The fact that this rather nonsensical literary vs genre discussion keeps coming up over and over and over again suggests that the problem is wide-spread.

Literary fiction is another way of saying novel. It has no agreed upon standard meaning. There is no standard definition. It means something different to pretty much every person who uses it.

Literature refers to prose and poetry in general, including non-fiction.

Literary as an adjective has no agreed upon meaning in terms of qualitative judgments--and it's the repeated implication and assertion of a qualitative judgment that is making me pull my hair out. Literary properly used in context can provide an idea of the prose style, without it necessarily being qualitative (see Whimsical Rabbit above).

Many of the posts in this thread demonstrate that the writers don't know what they are talking about--they really don't.

I personally prefer reading and writing lit fiction over genre.

there's nothing wrong with being a little word drunk. write for yourself, not for the raving masses.

Gee thanks buddy. Speaking as a member of the raving masses, I think you need to go read a lot more. Especially if you want to be published, which, of course, you very well might not want. Particularly if you think punctuation is a tool for the raving masses or a weapon of the hegemony.

Especially if you're tossing around statements like "I'm unable to suspend disbelief in the absence of nuanced, true-to-life characters in real-life settings" after a statement dismissing all genres.

Every single novel in the English and American canon belongs to one or more genres.

I'm fine with readers or writers not liking specific prose genres--examples of which include:

Bildungsroman
Epistolary
Mystery
Horror
SF
Fantasy
Thriller
Romance
Tragedy
Comedy
Novel of Manners
Political
Western
Action/Adventure
Travel
Epic
Military
Erotic
Saga
Picaresque
Satyrical
Parody

And many, many more.

Please think about your words. Go to a library and look up some of the terms you are using not only in unabridged dictionaries--but in specialized dictionaries like Holman, A Handbook to Literature, The Oxford Companion to English Literature, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms, The Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetic Terms, Abrams Glossary of Literary Terms.

You guys are making me weep.

We have many many writers and authors who deliberately write in specific genres--so let's not make qualitative judgments about the quality of their books en masse.
 
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Deleted member 42

Technically it's a crime novel, and that is how I will sell it to my agent. However, the more I think about it, the more I feel it is mainstream/literary.

This is a super way of thinking about genre--it shows an awareness of the fact that genre determinations revolve around themes and motifs.

And that a single book can and often does belong to multiple genres.

There's also an implied awareness that categories--used in marketing--may subsume genre.
 

donatos

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I just read this quote over in the Basic Writing Questions board:



I'm sorry for lifting out a particular person, but the attitude annoys me to no end. I love literary fiction. It's the kind of fiction that can make me forget the world around me and have me jump back into the real world at four am in the morning and realize that I've been reading for six hours straight.

I see the same attitude toward genre fiction as well, from literary writers. The high brow literary magazines are full of snobs snorting in derision at genre writers. It annoys me as much. I remember reading books like Wilson Tucker's "The Long loud silence" or Arthur C Clarke's "The City and the Star", or even just "The Star". I felt the same as when I read literary fiction.

Apples and Oranges. I don't know why people get so hung up on genre hair splitting on this site. I don't refer to you or the person you quoted in particular but there has been some page turner literary novels and some page turning genre novels. That is, something I just want to dive back into until I finish the book. Of course there is constipated literary writing that makes you continually put it down, but there is so many times I ask myself why I'm forcing my way through the latest genre book by "place large big writer name here". Of course there is outright literary works but that's for a limited audience just as straight hardcore genre is for a limited audience as well.
 

LaceWing

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Literary fiction is another way of saying novel.

Except when it's a short story. :D

I happen to have both 1982 and 2000 editions of Janet Burroway's Writing Fiction: A Guide To Narrative Craft. In the latter, appendix A separates genre from literary.

If this book (as I've been led to believe for some reason) is the most widely used text for first semester creative writing courses, we may have our culprit. According to my reading, she's not adequately backing up her claims.
 

Deleted member 42

I don't know why people get so hung up on genre hair splitting on this site. I don't refer to you or the person you quoted in particular but there has been some page turner literary novels and some page turning genre novels. That is, something I just want to dive back into until I finish the book. Of course there is constipated literary writing that makes you continually put it down, but there is so many times I ask myself why I'm forcing my way through the latest genre book by "place large big writer name here". Of course there is outright literary works but that's for a limited audience just as straight hardcore genre is for a limited audience as well.

Feel free to revise your original post at will.

You lot, many of you, are driving me back into class room mode.

I'm going to start compiling reading lists, based on those used for Ph.D. qualifying exams.
 

anydayshirley

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I personally am not partial to genre fiction. This isn't because I think all genre fiction is shit or that I believe literary fiction is somehow more intellectually stimulating. Sometimes it's true, other times it's not. I'm just not interested in fantasy, sci-fi, and the like. But that doesn't mean all genre fiction is formulaic and badly written. What about Ray Bradbury? Isaac Asimov? There's plenty of terrible lit fiction out there, as well.
 

Deleted member 42

Will no one think of the children?

You lot--get off my lawn. Go read The Mystery of Edwin Drood.
 

donatos

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Feel free to revise your original post at will.

You lot, many of you, are driving me back into class room mode.

I'm going to start compiling reading lists, based on those used for Ph.D. qualifying exams.

No, I'm gonna leave it with all its glorious typos. Makes me feel like Kerouac...
 

Deleted member 42

No, I'm gonna leave it with all its glorious typos. Makes me feel like Kerouac...

Oh hell, I'm legally blind, and dyslexic.

I wouldn't sweat it.

But I am going to post reading lists .

And yeah, for genre fiction too.
 

Jason58A

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is there such a thing as "literary horror?" I think that's what I've written but I'm not sure, it's sort of amorphous
 

Skye Jules

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OK.

That does it.

Many of you need to go out and read a lot more than you're reading.

Many of you are using words without knowing what they mean. This is one of the greatest of writerly sins.

The fact that this rather nonsensical literary vs genre discussion keeps coming up over and over and over again suggests that the problem is wide-spread.

Literary fiction is another way of saying novel. It has no agreed upon standard meaning. There is no standard definition. It means something different to pretty much every person who uses it.

Literature refers to prose and poetry in general, including non-fiction.

Literary as an adjective has no agreed upon meaning in terms of qualitative judgments--and it's the repeated implication and assertion of a qualitative judgment that is making me pull my hair out. Literary properly used in context can provide an idea of the prose style, without it necessarily being qualitative (see Whimsical Rabbit above).

Many of the posts in this thread demonstrate that the writers don't know what they are talking about--they really don't.



Gee thanks buddy. Speaking as a member of the raving masses, I think you need to go read a lot more. Especially if you want to be published, which, of course, you very well might not want. Particularly if you think punctuation is a tool for the raving masses or a weapon of the hegemony.

Especially if you're tossing around statements like "I'm unable to suspend disbelief in the absence of nuanced, true-to-life characters in real-life settings" after a statement dismissing all genres.

Every single novel in the English and American canon belongs to one or more genres.

I'm fine with readers or writers not liking specific prose genres--examples of which include:

Bildungsroman
Epistolary
Mystery
Horror
SF
Fantasy
Thriller
Romance
Tragedy
Comedy
Novel of Manners
Political
Western
Action/Adventure
Travel
Epic
Military
Erotic
Saga
Picaresque
Satyrical
Parody

And many, many more.

Please think about your words. Go to a library and look up some of the terms you are using not only in unabridged dictionaries--but in specialized dictionaries like Holman, A Handbook to Literature, The Oxford Companion to English Literature, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms, The Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetic Terms, Abrams Glossary of Literary Terms.

You guys are making me weep.

We have many many writers and authors who deliberately write in specific genres--so let's not make qualitative judgments about the quality of their books en masse.

Might I just say you are fabulous? :hooray:

We had this debate in my Literary Criticism class, and we could come up with no concrete answer in the end. Really, when I think of literary, I think of the canon, then I think of snobbery, then I just get angry. There's just no distinction. I just think it's pure snobbery to even bring up the argument between the two. I read all kinds of books, and all kinds of books are fabulous to me--with my personal taste, but mine is so broad the only thing I can say is I'm absolutely in love with dystopian/paranormal novels.
 

donatos

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Oh hell, I'm legally blind, and dyslexic.

I wouldn't sweat it.

But I am going to post reading lists .

And yeah, for genre fiction too.

I'm curious as to the phd reading list.
There's a good list for must read horror novels set up recently on the horror forum. Lovers of good stories in general won't be disappointed with most of those.
 

donatos

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is there such a thing as "literary horror?" I think that's what I've written but I'm not sure, it's sort of amorphous

Sure there is. Laird Barron is making waves right now with his literary style. Then there's Peter Straub, Ramsey Campbell, and Thomas Ligotti.

Keep doing whatever it is you're doing. When it seems there's no precedent that's a good thing. The genre can use some concussion bombs to knock the cobwebs off of it imo.
 

Deleted member 42

I'm curious as to the phd reading list.
There's a good list for must read horror novels set up recently on the horror forum. Lovers of good stories in general won't be disappointed with most of those.

I'm being swamped with work at the moment, but yeah, I am going to post them.

Probably on the main Web site for AW; I need to get permission from the schools.

You can find them via Google or another search engine; they're lists for Ph.D. comprehensive exams. They differ from school to school, but they cover format (drama, novel, poetry, etc. ) and historic era, and at some schools, specific genres.

What's interesting is that they've gotten smaller, and, well, easier.
 
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