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Graphic erotic scenes in non-erotica?

Thread starter SophieB
Start date Jun 27, 2013

SophieB

Novels with a side of science.

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Jun 27, 2013

#1

My sister and I have been "discussing" [arguing] about sex scenes in non-erotica, and I was wondering where others stand on this. Though I've written short erotic fiction, my "real" focus is contemporary lit and my sister thinks a couple of my sex scenes are too graphic. (Ironic, since she writes actual erotica!) In her opinion, including erotic interludes in non-erotic fiction "changes your intended audience", and is "jarring" (at least that one wasn't about one of mine!)

Needless to say... I disagree.

While I agree that the scene has to "fit" tone, theme, story, and voice, I don't think writing detailed sex scenes automatically takes a book out of any particular category. I agree with Stacia Kane that you can't suddenly throw a bunch of anatomical terms in there without ever having mentioned sex before, but I think that when the sex is a relevant part of the MC's story, suddenly cutting to soft-focus flowers is cheating. Then I would have to come back and TELL the reader why the interlude had an impact on the MC...

To me there's a happy middle ground possible between alluding to sex and describing every drop of body fluid with terms I'd use at work (I'm a nurse).

If the story were more focused on the sex, and it took longer to work those issues out, I'd be happy to change the category, but I don't think two clearly described sex scenes, consistent in tone and language with the rest of the book, are "jarring", unless you pick up the book thinking I was writing about convent life!

I'm posting here instead of under novels, etcetera, because I think it's a subject that writers of erotica have spent more time considering.

veinglory

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Jun 27, 2013

#2

I have come across graphic sex in mainstream fantasy, literary works, thrillers and probably some other books if I think about it. Unless the book is for children or conservative Christians genre, I don't see the problem with one or two explicit scenes, possibly more.

kkbe

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Jun 27, 2013

#3

Thinking of my own novel, there are. . . three? Pretty graphic, but I feel the scenes are appropriate in context, and necessary. I don't consider my novel 'erotica', not by a long stretch, not even close, although the mc is struggling with his sexuality. Sex and sexuality are part of it, but so are self-acceptance and love. I think if the scene fits the story, fits the characters, isn't gratuitous, if it serves a purpose, I don't see a problem with it.

Maryn

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Jun 27, 2013

#4

I tend to agree with your sister, in general. (Maryn ducks.)

The people who are reading something other than erotica have expectations about what they're reading. While a sex scene might be necessary to drive its plot forward or develop characterization (suddenly Alex and Alice work together!), I can't think of any reason the scene might need to be graphic and detailed.

If the reader needs to know exactly what sexual acts were performed because it affects plot or character (something specific kink went on and someone who ought not to like it really, really did; a character whose marriage failed because of bad sex has her first orgasm), that can be said without a lot of graphic and detailed description.

It's like a writer who's a serious foodie describing the details of a meal when characters meet at a restaurant to discuss whatever the plot or character development needs. The reader doesn't want to know the subtle spices used in the entree or how artful its presentation, nor the light airiness of that hand-formed garlic knotted rolls brushed with clarified butter. The graphic and detailed description of the food does not propel character development or plot.

Or maybe an author is interested in fashion--but the reader doesn't care what the Wacoal bra does for her breasts, nor about the flat-felled seams and welted pockets on her natural linen suit with the Zeno lining, nor the pumps with the cut-away arch and stacked leather heels. It's graphic description that doesn't further the work's intent.

I think when a sex scene is graphic and detailed, its purpose changes from plot-or-character to arousal--and readers of something other than erotica don't expect it and may not particularly like that, any more than they want to read all about the meal or the wardrobe. It stops the story's progress and pulls them out of it to contemplate the sex, the food, or the style.

Maryn, just one opinion

kkbe

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Jun 27, 2013

#5

Maryn: I think when a sex scene is graphic and detailed, its purpose changes from plot-or-character to arousal--and readers of something other than erotica don't expect it and may not particularly like that, any more than they want to read all about the meal or the wardrobe. It stops the story's progress and pulls them out of it to contemplate the sex, the food, or the style.

Maryn, just one opinion

I see your point, Maryn. But arousal isn't only sexual, and sometimes the purpose isn't to sexually arouse, but to evoke a strong emotional response. And sometimes the graphic nature of sex scene fits the whole of the narrative. If a novel doesn't pull punches in other respects, if it's raw or brutally honest or . . . you know what I mean, right? Then it has to be so in all scenes, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't ring true and it wouldn't 'fit' the rest of the story. Thinking of novels like Choke. It's not erotica, but Palahniuk didn't hold back or gloss over. A novel like that, you might love it or hate it but the narrative is consistent and the novel wouldn't have that . . . punch in the gut or whatever--had Palahniuk held back. Even novels like Portnoy's Complaint contain graphic sex, which suits the novel and serves the writer's purpose.

The same would hold true for a novel with graphic violence, where violence is the theme. Like A Clockwork Orange, American Psycho, Fight Club. And even in novels where violence isn't the main theme, like The Chocolate War or Lord of the Flies.

kkbe, just putting it out there.

Maryn

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Jun 27, 2013

#6

Point well made, and (I hope) taken. In each of the works you name that I've read, as I recall it the graphic scene was vital. And if memory serves, not arousing. (It's been literally a decade or more, so memory might not serve at all.)

What I'm objecting to is the insertion of a scene intended to arouse in a work which is not intended to arouse. Did that make sense?

I'm probably not the only person who critiques and betas who's seen an explicit scene in a non-erotica work which does nothing except make the author squirm in her chair as she writes it, and later greet her husband, BF or GF with enthusiasm. The readers squirm for a different reason, because that scene simply does not fit.

Maryn, distracted by a building contractor and hoping this holds together

dangerousbill

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Jun 27, 2013

#7

SophieB said:
My sister and I have been "discussing" [arguing] about sex scenes in non-erotica, and I was wondering where others stand on this. Though I've written short erotic fiction, my "real" focus is contemporary lit and my sister thinks a couple of my sex scenes are too graphic.

People, your readers in general, put an inordinate emphasis on sex. For example, you might have written the biggest thriller in the world, but plunk an explicit half-page scene right down in the middle of it. This will cause a substantial fraction of your audience to think 'smut' and put your book down.

Twice, I've had beta readers' first comment be 'is this a thriller or an erotic novel; it can't be both'. I disagree in principle, but it seems to be the case when dealing with the total market. In one of my unpublished novels, my MC has a continuing affair with his student. It's an integral part of the plot, but the plot is also full of action and powerful government agencies. Again, beta readers said, 'tone down the sex content, because it will put many readers off'.

(My response, by the way, has been to turn to writing exclusively erotica.)

kkbe

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Jun 27, 2013

#8

Maryn: What I'm objecting to is the insertion of a scene intended to arouse in a work which is not intended to arouse. Did that make sense?

Yep, of course it does. I guess the key is that the scene must serve a purpose relative to the whole, right? To drive plot, or for character development. And not exist as it's own little titillating entity. Like a raw oyster dropped in a bowl of Cheerios and set in front of some horny fourteen year old boy. Maybe a floating breast would have made for a better analogy.

Actually, that entire analogy is rather distasteful and I want to take it back. :tongue

:tongue

This particular conversation is of personal interest because I have written a novel with a few explicit sex scenes. It is not erotica, and yet I strongly believe those scenes are important to my novel.

And yet, the most violently graphic scene, in which the mc recounts in his journal what happened in the hours and minutes leading up to him raping a young man--when he revealed what was going through his mind--has been taken to task. For some, putting that in my book raised hackles. But I also received more than a few comments suggesting that I dropped the ball by not showing the actual rape, which I thought would have been exploitive and unneccessary. And I've had other folks comment on the lack of explicit sexual scenes between my two mcs, because (they said), some readers expect it from "that kind of book" (I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist, I hope). Thing is, it isn't "that type of book." It's not erotica. But the sexual component is real and important and it drives much of the plot.

Oh, boy.

dangerousbill: . . .you might have written the biggest thriller in the world, but plunk an explicit half-page scene right down in the middle of it. This will cause a substantial fraction of your audience to think 'smut' and put your book down.

Twice, I've had beta readers' first comment be 'is this a thriller or an erotic novel; it can't be both'. I disagree in principle, but it seems to be the case when dealing with the total market.

You have to decide if and when your novel needs such a scene, and if you think it does, put it in. Write it well. See what people say. Then decide how much weight you're going to give their opinions. As a writer, I am really careful about that 'if and when'. But once I decide, I'm okay with it. Then the question is, Does the reading public agree with that? Hell, does an agent? A publisher? I'd like to think so, but I don't know. Hopefully, I'm going to find out one of these days.

Last edited: Jun 27, 2013

veinglory

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Jun 27, 2013

#9

What genre is the book? In spec fic I see graphic scenes pretty routinely. Sure I do read at the more transgressive end but they are still mainstream books from big six publisher imprints and major independents. Ditto literary books, some pf the stuff I read there would not be permitted by a lot of erotica publishers. Children, wild animals, aliens, corpses all sort of stuff and I would deem it explicit (more than a page about the mechanics of the sex act etc).

SophieB

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Jun 27, 2013

#10

This is exactly why I chose this forum- thoughtful, disparate viewpoints without the knee-jerk.

I'm in the same boat as KK, both books with which my sister took issue are "voyages of self-discovery" blended into more topical subject matter. The sex scenes are an integral part of the MCs inner drama in both cases, and evoke other issues for them, so there was a lot I couldn't cut. As long as my sister isn't reading this, I might as well admit that I occasionally have mixed feelings about including explicit scenes. As a reader I've skimmed or skipped sex scenes in books about other subjects. If it's a romance novel, then I want to know, but if it's a thriller, the sex just gets in between me and the story I sat down to read.

The best thing about the publishing industry "revolution" is opening it up beyond what the big guys tell us readers want. Some people paint their houses purple. I don't believe my books have to fit firmly into one category any more than I think my life has to be only one thing. I may appeal to fewer readers, but I'm not sure all reading should be comfortable.

Donald Maas, who sometimes leans too far into cookie-cutter-land, makes the point that if you have more than one genre in the same book, individual plotlines may be saying the same thing in different ways, which is an accurate description of the blending I attempt and which, I think, makes the sex not as "jarring" as my sister states. The words themselves definitely have a big impact on whether or not the scene is palatable. I stay away from "tab a into slot b" as much as possible. Literary readers can't deal with the -perfectly good- words I'd use in erotic fiction. Period.

I think the point Maryn brought up about the amount of detail included is a good one, and helpful to me trying to examine my own work from a different angle. And, Maryn, I may partially disagree with you, but I have a serious craving for garlic rolls and pasta aioli now!

Thanks for the intelligent discussion, everyone! I'm sleep-deprived and have mush-brain so I didn't feel like writing, but I may have a few words left in there, after all....

SophieB

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Jun 27, 2013

#11

kkbe said:
....arousal isn't only sexual, and sometimes the purpose isn't to sexually arouse, but to evoke a strong emotional response. And sometimes the graphic nature of sex scene fits the whole of the narrative. If a novel doesn't pull punches in other respects, if it's raw or brutally honest or . . . you know what I mean, right? Then it has to be so in all scenes, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't ring true....

Perfectly expressing my thoughts about this. Thank you!

Liralen

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Jun 27, 2013

#12

kkbe said:
Thinking of my own novel, there are. . . three? Pretty graphic, but I feel the scenes are appropriate in context, and necessary. I don't consider my novel 'erotica', not by a long stretch, not even close, although the mc is struggling with his sexuality. Sex and sexuality are part of it, but so are self-acceptance and love. I think if the scene fits the story, fits the characters, isn't gratuitous, if it serves a purpose, I don't see a problem with it.

EXACTLY! I've run into this myself. The story insisted on going there and I was, well, mortified. I never intended write something like that. I mollified myself with "you can go back and edit it down -- or out -- later." Now that I'm farther along and know the characters more intimately, understand their story, I realize it's an integral part of who they are, who they are struggling to become, and their relationships with each other. And themselves.

kkbe

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Jun 29, 2013

#13

Liralen and SophieB, it's good to hear from others who've grappled with this issue. Sometimes I write something and it's almost foreign. I find myself wondering, Why am I writing this? Where the hell did it come from? It can be disconcerting, especially when others ask me those same questions; I think because, in their minds, my writing contradicts their perception of who I am.

Sometimes, I feel the same way.

I tend to try to defend my choices, explain my reasoning. . .

Which is good in one respect: it forces me to look at my writing objectively, see if my reasons make sense within the context of the story. With the novel I reference earlier, I'm satisfied that they do.

Liralen

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Jun 29, 2013

#14

It's given me an objective -- and subjective -- appreciation of erotica . . . and a different perspective on it.

Sure, some of it's "mommy porn" and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever and it shouldn't be denigrated (unless it's horribly written tripe, of course

). I'm willing to bet that reading it has freed a lot of women up, let them -- even taught them -- to be more comfortable with their desires and enjoy life more fully.

And then there's erotica that's, well, not. There's something else going on there, and the author's chosen it as their vehicle, consciously or unconsciously. Like Anne (Rice) Rampling's Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. I stumbled across it in the giveaway bin at Edward McKay's. I couldn't finish it. Too close to home. Literally. It hit me about halfway through that it's not chapter after chapter of gratuitous S&M, it's a graphic illustration of living under the control of narcissists. It's soaked with the confusion, the pain, the humiliation, the instillation of self-doubt and the destructive psychological and emotional bludgeoning that are the narcissist's passion and the tools of his/her trade.

Good writing, good literature, good stories, aren't squeamish, and I feel like I'm a much better writer for having learned this, and I'm grateful to The Black Dog Dialogues for shoving my face in it -- as well as freeing me.

And despite what one of the writers' group members (the one who chose the same name for a main supporting character with similar physical characteristics as my MC's name, then swore it was a coincidence) admonishment that I should delete the scenes so it's not just a trashy novel, that I'm "a better writer than that," in it stays.

clee984

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Jun 29, 2013

#15

I think that graphic is fine, I'd just be way of it being gratuitous. I could name a number of graphic erotic scenes in none-erotic literature that are both great and necessary - off the top of my head, 'Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson (hist. fic), 'The Cold Six Thousand' by James Ellroy (hipster thriller), 'Brass' by Helen Walsh (contemp. fic).

None of them got me hot under the collar, but it would have been strange if they weren't included. I mean, we're all adults, right?

*blows raspberry and runs away laughing*

Liralen

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Jun 29, 2013

#16

I'll admit, I had a hard time keeping a straight face when this woman admonished me that I would be seriously limiting "my market" if I didn't take those scenes out.

I also didn't ask her what freaking world she'd been living in for the last thirty years. Or hundred. Or if she'd ever read The Decameron.

clee984

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Jun 29, 2013

#17

Liralen said:
I'll admit, I had a hard time keeping a straight face when this woman admonished me that I would be seriously limiting "my market" if I didn't take those scenes out.

My MS is currently being beta'd by an extremely knowledgeable, helpful, and diplomatic gentleman, but he has not entirely approved of the 'overt' sexual stuff thus far (hand-holding, unmarried ladies stepping out with a gentleman without a chaperone). I'm REALLY not looking forward to when he gets to the scene featuring the leather, whips, cattle-prod, German Shepherd and industrial sized jar of vaseline. Very little romance in that scene

Liralen

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Jun 29, 2013

#18

OH, there's one of those in my group too. (He's actually written dialogue where a contemporary detective say's things like, "darn it!") An engineer. He's a lovely man, but is such an engineer!

He had a terrible time with the threesome, but was quite gentlemanly about expressing his outrage that a man would "share his woman" with another man. I'm grateful to him for expressing it because that loosed several threads of thought that have been spooling up back in my mind to where I could start weaving them together.

clee984

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Jun 29, 2013

#19

Liralen said:
He had a terrible time with the threesome, but was quite gentlemanly about expressing his outrage that a man would "share his woman" with another man. I'm grateful to him for expressing it because that loosed several threads of thought that have been spooling up back in my mind to where I could start weaving them together.

Damn, your book sounds interesting! I would never "share my woman" but that's only because she'd just realise what a bum deal she was getting with me

Seriously though, I thought of a counter example to all this, I read one of the 'Rendez-vous with Rama' (sci-fi) sequels by Arthur C Clarke and some other chap, and it contained a sex scene that was just gratuitous, and imo, totally unnecessary. It wasn't particularly 'out there' as a sex scene, it just didn't add anything to the story, and left me thinking, 'well, that was pointless and a bit creepy'.

Oreo1909

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Jun 29, 2013

#20

Follow the movie industry.

A rated 'R' movie will have depictions of sexual interplay, but they're usually tasteful. If you want more, there are genres for that, as well. Choke was portrayed on screen and managed to deliver the meaning of the events on hand, without explicit gratuity.

As a writer, or rather storyteller, your job is to provide imagery and story to an audience within the conventions of what they are willing to read. Failing that, your have a story but are not a storyteller.

If you want erotic, write erotic. If you want something else, write that something else. But, the impetus is on you, not the reader, to create a likeable and well-dressed tale.

After all the justifications, that is where the roles of writer and reader stand. If it's not likeable, they will not read.

In my opinion.

Last edited: Jun 29, 2013

Liralen

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Jun 29, 2013

#21

I've come to the conclusion that it all boils down to why you are writing.

Are you writing for an audience? Then figure out who your audience is and what they want and craft a good story within those parameters.

If, however, you're writing because the story insists on being written, not for an audience but just because, then be true to the story. It will have what it wants!

SentaHolland

'Out of the Shadows' HarperCollins

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Jun 30, 2013

#22

Explicit sex has been part of all kinds of literature for - well, really, forever, in many different parts of the world. Henry Miller, Decameron, Chaucer, and indeed contemporary writers like Palahniuk. Surely sex is part of life and therefore can be written about in so many different ways. As part of so many different stories. Arousing many different feelings in the reader. I don't like the 'shelving' of 'Erotica' just because a book has a storyline that is told through the medium of sexual encounters. I can't relate to the idea of 'sex scenes' - if other scenes in the book are there to express the story, the characters, maybe deeper thoughts and concepts, why is that not equally true for scenes that have sex in them?

DancingMaenid

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Jul 3, 2013

#23

Maryn said:
What I'm objecting to is the insertion of a scene intended to arouse in a work which is not intended to arouse. Did that make sense?

I definitely agree with this. You want the scene to be appropriate for the tone of the novel as a whole.

But I don't think graphic sex scenes have to be intended to arouse, or that they even have to be erotic. Sex scenes, even graphic ones, can fulfill any number of purposes depending on the tone and how they're written. I think it's the tone and the details the author focuses on, more than the inclusion of sex in itself, that determines whether a scene will read like erotica or not.

Paris Love

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Jul 3, 2013

#24

For an audience seeking erotic novels, I think only 2 graphic sex scenes would be disappointing. That would be like going to the movies to see "The Fast and The Furious 6" and there are only 2 car race/chase scenes.

My WIP is definitely erotic romance, as almost 25% of the book is sex. I don't know if that is enough to satisfy the erotic romance reader. Most of the reviews of erotic romance and erotica have readers requesting more sex, not less.

Perhaps reading some novels that fall squarely into the erotica genre and comparing your work to the level of sex in both would help clear up any confusion as to how to categorize your story.

MariePinkerton

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Jul 5, 2013

#25

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Last edited: Sep 19, 2018

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