Anti-Americanism, xenophobia and glorification of a controversial historical figure?

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mccardey

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You don't need to ask permission to do stuff. Do it, then find out from your Betas if it's going to be an obstacle to publication.

Although I do think you've heard this once or twice before. At some point you're going to have to write. Don't be scared of it.
 

seun

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Does anyone think having an Afro-Honduran protagonist with a cultural prejudice against Jamaicans would actually be an issue?

You're looking for reassurance when your focus should be on writing to the best of your abilities. Obviously there will be those who find your book/character offensive. You can't get away from that so focus on telling your story honestly and as best as you can.
 

Cristin_B

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I'm an American who has lived overseas for ten years, on three different continents. Anti-Americanism is a worldwide phenomenon. I've actually been physically attacked (in Italy, just after the start of the war) for no other reason than someone disagreeing with George Bush and having a bit too much wine.

That said, I don't find anti-Americanism offensive. I understand the reasons for it. From my perspective (and it may be because of my personal experiences), it has become a bit of a cliche.

What I find interesting is the inconsistency of: "I hate America, I hate Americans, who do they think they are, grrr George bush...Could you sponsor me for a greencard? I'll pay anything you want."

A character who hates Americans and Afro-Jamaicans, but (maybe unselfconsciously) wishes to be one more than anything else...that would be far more compelling.
 

shaldna

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I don't think anyone would have an issue with a character who was racist and quite vocal about it, so long as it was just the character, and not something that came across as the authors opinion and thoughts in the general text.
 

Brutal Mustang

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As someone who's been to Central America, I think they have their own issues with racism and colorism that are quite separate from anti-Americanism. I don't think anti-Americanism is prejudice per se, anyway... it's just acknowledgement of a political reality and desire not to be totally dominated by a vastly more powerful country. The racism is something different. Those countries were dominated for hundreds of years by slaveholding white European elites (just like the United States), so even though they're much more multiracial than the United States, a lot of that attitude is still there in the present day.


I grew up in Costa Rica, where the people are predominently European (fair-skinned, even blue-eyed). As such, they tend to have a bit of a superiority complex over the Nicaraguans, who are more indiginous looking.

In many ways, Nicaragua is to Costa Rica what Mexico is to the US--Nicas come into Costa Rica illegally, to escape their currupt land, looking for work. And naturally, the Ticos resent them for it. The Ticos love blaming societal ills on 'those damn Nicas'.
 

Orchestra

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I'm offended by "Afro-Honduran." Don't you mean a black person from Honduras?

But seriously, never ask permission to write something. Don't be a wimp.
 

backslashbaby

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Just make it clear whether he is considered Black (how dark-skinned?) and Honduran, because you may be cracking open that whole PoC shadism can of worms without meaning to go there. AAMOF, it may be unavoidable given the situation and time period you are describing.

I've had co-workers who were quite vocally racist against Blacks, which confused me at first because I thought they were certainly Black. These guys were Dominican (and quite dark-skinned).
 
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Owing to the fact I have more than two brain cells to rub together, I'm able to accept the fact that novels come as a result of Clever Author Makey-Uppy Word Story.

Further, I'm able to separate this story from any views the author may or may not hold himself.
 

escritora

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Just make it clear whether he is considered Black (how dark-skinned?) and Honduran, because you may be cracking open that whole PoC shadism can of worms without meaning to go there. AAMOF, it may be unavoidable given the situation and time period you are describing.

I've had co-workers who were quite vocally racist against Blacks, which confused me at first because I thought they were certainly Black. These guys were Dominican (and quite dark-skinned).

The shade of ones skin color doesn't determine whether someone is black or not. I know you know this (seriously I do). So I'm wondering what's the point you're trying to make when you asked "how dark-skin" is he. (that's sounds snarky. I don't mean it that way.)
 

backslashbaby

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The shade of ones skin color doesn't determine whether someone is black or not. I know you know this (seriously I do). So I'm wondering what's the point you're trying to make when you asked "how dark-skin" is he. (that's sounds snarky. I don't mean it that way.)

I meant it as two parts: is he Black and how dark-skinned? Sorry! I meant that there can still be shadism going on if he's Black along with the character he is being xenophobic about.

Also, if he is just described as medium brown for the readers to assume that he's also Black (like the other character) that's not enough to go by. I don't think a skin color description will work; she'll have to say African heritage or Afro- or something concrete for readers to know what she means, imho.

eta: I'm afraid I'm not making sense as to why I brought this up. They are just two specific things to research or ask for beta advice about. I don't know that she wasn't going to be clear in how she defines the heritage of each character, or that she was or wasn't going to take on shadism in this work. It's just a heads-up kind of thing :)
 
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Jamesaritchie

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If it's a story where he grows and changes, then no, it wouldn't bother me. If it's a story where he remains as he is at the end, it still wouldn't offend me, but it would make it a story I wouldn't want to read, about a character I wouldn't want to know, and couldn't emphasize with.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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Yeah, he's considered Black. Jamesaritchie, are you referring to the anti-Americanism or the attitudes to English speakers? And backslashbaby, I knew that about the colorism. In fact, in the very first scene, the young woman he's working for makes a bigoted comment about Black West Indians (along the lines of the President is a puppet who's
letting too many Blacks in, why doesn't he enforce immigration laws etc typical bigoted stuff) and he jumps in shock. He thinks this woman (who's very light-skinned and is a politician) is referring to him and his foster mother, who's also considered Black. (BTW, the protagonist is loosely based on a historical figure who wasn't Black, but who was anti-American.) Another BTW- Brutal Mustang, are you Costa Rican or did you just grow up there?

About how dark he is- pretty dark brown. There's an important character who's darker than him, though. ETA: Is there anything offensive about describing someone's skin as almost black?
 
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ios

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The United Fruit Company often employed Afro-Jamaican workers to work its banana plantations. These workers competed with local Hondurans for jobs and were often used as strike breakers, which contributed to racist attitudes among some Hondurans. Since UFCO (American company- paid low wages and the West Indians were often given better-paying jobs than locals, (mostly because they spoke English) some people were hostile to them. Kind of a scapegoating thing going on.

If the above is explained in the story, then most likely readers will be able to connect more with him than with a lead who is prejudiced but never gives a reason.

Jodi
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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Thanks for that, Jodi. Actually this guy is Black by American standards. Forgot that. I think of the premise of this as "What if Che Guevara and Eva Peron were contemporaries and both opposed to UFCO because it's controlling their country? What if Eva had children and the military was trying to manipulate her, while she instituted social reforms? And Che was a servant boy to Eva, and it all took place in a world with dirigibles and biological robots?"
 
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Brutal Mustang

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Another BTW- Brutal Mustang, are you Costa Rican or did you just grow up there?

I'm part Norse, part Native American, part Scottish, part German, born in California. But at one time in my life, I was fully Tica, and could be mistaken for non other on the streets of Heredia.
 

bkendall

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The only thing that bothers me is inputing a racially charged issue like you mention here, but not explaining it clearly enough. I think you said it would be explained, but I'm just voicing my opinion to give a larger sample size. Another vote for your protag not bothering me, as long as he organically realizes what he has thought/said/done was wrong.
 

quicklime

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You don't need to ask permission to do stuff. Do it, then find out from your Betas if it's going to be an obstacle to publication. If it is, you've probably gone to far anyway.


this is the biggest thing to remember. you CAN do anything. if it is done poorly, it will fail, and if it is done well, it will not. Nabokiv didn't write anyone that I am aware of saying "can I write about a creepy-assed old guy perving on a young girl to the point of obsession in a ridiculously unhealthy and exploitative relationship?" and Lolita is a classic despite dealing with Taboos. So is To Kill a Mockingbird, or for that matter, in more commercial terms, A Time To Kill, which deals with racism and child rape and vigilanteism.

If you can make it work, you can do it. The trick is making it work.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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The main issue I'm concerned about is glamourising the historical figure(s) in this story, although it's an alternate history. Che Guevara and Eva Peron are still controversial, (never mind the fact that they never met) so I don't know how a YA dieselpunk novel set in Honduras with a highly fictionalised Che as first-person narrator and protagonist would be received. (Especially because it's in diary format) I'm pretty sure I could make it work, though- the issue is that it could be seen as glorification. (The xenophobia's been removed)
 
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escritora

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You bumped this thread yesterday asking the same question and no one answered. Did you delete yesterday's post so you can bump the thread again today and not get called out for it?

Are you expecting a different answer for the glorification angle? The answer is the same.
 

blacbird

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Notable success stories among novels involving adulation of a controversial historical figure, in the U.S. at least, would include Arundel, by the great historical novelist Kenneth Roberts. In that, he related the story of Benedict Arnold, the infamous Revolutionary War traitor, making him a hero.

It can work, but you better be a damgood storyteller.

caw
 

quicklime

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bump. Anyone want to talk about the glorification angle?

this is not gonna serve you well if escritora was correct.



that said, glorification of what? Che? You're an aussie, all i can say is shit; walk through a large campus here. Obama's red/white silhouette poster is at a minimum "inspired by" a similar drawing of Che, and it isn't uncommon to see here.

Lots of "bad guys" get "glamorized"; otherwise nobody could write anything about Hitler, Satan, Ghengis Khan, etc. without them being moustache-twirling, black-hat evil.....

portraying someone as something other than black or white is not glorifying, neither is pointing out he was widely supported at the time in the region.
 

Morwen Edhelwen

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And also, when's Hitler not portrayed as black-hat evil? Because I highly doubt I could find books not demonising Hitler that aren't neo-Nazi propaganda. Just wondering.
 
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