The NRA will be talking about this one for years

LittlePinto

Perpetually confused
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
1,853
Reaction score
348
*blink*

I thought for quite some time about a good thread title. I finally decided on this one because I thought it was accurate and engaging. One of the NRA's arguments for arming citizens revolves around this exact secerio; however, actual instances the organization can point to are rare. Therefore this will likely be the go-to incident until a better one comes along.
 

rugcat

Lost in the Fog
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
16,339
Reaction score
4,110
Location
East O' The Sun & West O' The Moon
Website
www.jlevitt.com
I think there is absolutely no doubt but that there are occasions where an armed civilian can and has prevented a murderous suspect from achieving his aims.

There are also cases where people have been trapped in burning cars by their seatbelts and perished. If they had not been wearing seatbelts they would've escaped and lived.

I still think it's a good idea to wear seatbelts. I still think it's a very bad idea for everyone and his brother to be carrying firearms at all times. Individual incidents are often presented as proof that a particular law (or lack of ione) is good or bad. But isolated incidents are pretty much irrelevant to the overall picture.

The idea that having a heavily armed populace is a good thing and makes everyone safer is, to my mind, ridiculous. That doesn't mean I refuse to accept there are occasionally times when someone having a gun turns out to be a good thing indeed.
 

Don

All Living is Local
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
24,567
Reaction score
4,007
Location
Agorism FTW!
Claiming that this type of story is rarely given broad coverage by a media that feeds on fear and aligns itself with the "guns are bad" meme will be met with derision, which is also probably why few people bother to post those few stories that do make it to the major news outlets.

Most often, these stories are covered by local news if at all, and don't come to national attention, or only show up on sites that cover these incidents as a matter of their particular interest. Also, I doubt that many people bother to call the newspaper or the local police when simply showing arms is enough to de-escalate a situation that might have otherwise ended badly. I certainly haven't done so, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But take a look around. Of course, these are all "biased" sites, since coverage of these incidents is sparse, so feel free to dismiss them as you see fit.

But this particular case is far from the only one that's happened.

Here are reports of 1402 cases, sorted by state.
A bunch more here.
Another collection.
Mass killings stopped by armed citizens.
 

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
People with legal firearms frequently stop crimes. There are several such events every week, but it's much more exciting to see something about a cop who emptied a handgun at someone who was running away.
 

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
4,103
Location
CBUS
Claiming that this type of story is rarely given broad coverage by a media that feeds on fear and aligns itself with the "guns are bad" meme will be met with derision, which is also probably why few people bother to post those few stories that do make it to the major news outlets.

Oh, boo-and-HOO. There aren't enough "guns are good" stories in the media that feeds the myth all it takes to stop crime are more guns. That's like saying if you already have cancer of the lung, you might as well have some cancer of the pancreas too because the solution to cancer is more cancer.

How often do good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns? Not nearly enough.

In the fierce debate that always follows the latest mass shooting, it's an argument you hear frequently from gun rights promoters: If only more people were armed, there would be a better chance of stopping these terrible events. This has plausibility problems—what are the odds that, say, a moviegoer with a pack of Twizzlers in one pocket and a Glock in the other would be mentally prepared, properly positioned, and skilled enough to take out a body-armored assailant in a smoke- and panic-filled theater? But whether you believe that would happen is ultimately a matter of theory and speculation. Instead, let's look at some facts gathered in a five-month investigation by Mother Jones.

In the wake of the massacres this year at a Colorado movie theater, a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, and Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, we set out to track mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years. We identified and analyzed 62 of them, and one striking pattern in the data is this: In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun. And in other recent (but less lethal) rampages in which armed civilians attempted to intervene, those civilians not only failed to stop the shooter but also were gravely wounded or killed. Moreover, we found that the rate of mass shootings has increased in recent years—at a time when America has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of new laws has made it easier than ever to carry them in public places, including bars, parks, and schools.
But still good people without guns still get shot by bad people with guns. If only everybody had a gun! Then we'd all finally be safe.

:guns: Unless you have a bigger gun than I do.... :scared:

Don said:
But take a look around. Of course, these are all "biased" sites, since coverage of these incidents is sparse, so feel free to dismiss them as you see fit.

But this particular case is far from the only one that's happened.

Here are reports of 1402 cases, sorted by state.
A bunch more here.
Another collection.
Mass killings stopped by armed citizens.

The various links are From Guns Save Lives.com, NRA's American Rifleman, The Armed Citizen: Providing News and Resources for the Armed Citizen Since 2001 and the Gunwatch blogspot with the delightful tagline, HOW ODD THAT MASSACRES MOSTLY HAPPEN IN "GUN-FREE ZONES"! When will the brain-dead Left wake up and draw the obvious conclusion? Gun bans kill kids.

Nothing "biased" or a bit agenda-driven about any of those sites, dontcha think? :rolleyes

Oh, and by the way, Don? Thanks for linking to the Gunwatch site. On the right side of the page I got to learn all sorts of other fascinating things like this:
Note for non-American readers: Crime reports from America which describe an offender just as a "teen" or "teenager" almost invariably mean a BLACK teenager
And fun facts about Trayvon Martin like this:

At time of death, Martin, a regular pot smoker and apparently a drug dealer as well, was enamored of a narcotic concoction called "lean" or "purple drank," made by mixing cough syrup with candy like Skittles and fruit cocktails like the Arizona Watermelon drink that the media turned into "iced tea" because they couldn't bear to connect watermelons and black people. Martin had a history of street-fighting and of being dissatisfied that one victim didn't bleed enough, and had been negotiating to illegally buy a handgun. There had also been suspicion of burglary prior. This sort of thing was what got him kicked out of school in the Miami area, and which convinced his good Mom to send him to his Dad out of tough love, which is why Trayvon Martin was in Sanford in the first place. None of this information, gleaned from Martin's cell phone and other sources, ever made it to the jury: the judge ruled that since Zimmerman didn't know it, it was not germane to his decision to shoot, for which he was being judged.

Thanks for the offer to dismiss your links, Don. I'm going to dismiss them as pretty biased generally and the overtly repugnant, puke-worthy racism of Gunwatch specifically.

After exposure to that reeking septic tank of steaming, bigoted bullshit, I need a hot shower to wash the stink off of me.
 

CrastersBabies

Burninator!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
5,641
Reaction score
666
Location
USA
There's nothing funny about the fact Little Pinto's title was completely accurate as it was entirely predictable the NRA would be all over this sort of pro-gun story like white on rice.

Well, they need PR wins when they can get them. :)
 

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
4,103
Location
CBUS
People with legal firearms frequently stop crimes. There are several such events every week, but it's much more exciting to see something about a cop who emptied a handgun at someone who was running away.

Sorry Walter Scott getting shot in the back fucked up your week.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I think most people shouldn't carry guns, for the record. And I think separating it out legally is the absolute hardest part.

But I do really trust some folks with guns (I'm from a military family and family friends) and expect that they could, rarely, help protect folks, yep. And if they don't, they still aren't a danger, because they are very responsible. Perhaps call them the Swiss types :)

So I don't find it horrifying that some citizens are trusted with guns. The huge problem is how very many people I don't trust with guns, and that makes me very uncomfortable. I'd add a bunch of registrations, training, and tests, personally.

And I'd crack down like crazy on gun crime (stealing guns, selling illegally, straw buyers, 'loaning' guns, etc), because those folks have demonstrated that they are not responsible enough at all. Find those stolen guns and see who is doing it and where they go, you know? Illegal guns are much more of a problem than legal guns overall, imho, and there's no excuse for not following those trails. That won't fix everything, but you'd think we could all agree on that step at least!
 

POPASMOKE

Keep your turns up
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
648
Reaction score
135
Location
25 klicks SE of Elephant Valley
People with legal firearms frequently stop crimes. There are several such events every week, but it's much more exciting to see something about a cop who emptied a handgun at someone who was running away.

Actually, it's much more than that... a lot more than 29,999


“If you look at information from the Justice Department, they have something called the National Crime Victimization survey. What you find is that guns are used in crime about 250,000 times a year.” John R. Lott Jr., economist, Yale professor, and president of Crime Prevention Research Center, told Townhall. “If you look at similar surveys of people who use guns defensively, it’s about two million times a year. So basically people are using guns defensively to stop crimes about four to five times more frequently each year than guns are used to commit a crime. Most people don’t realize that.”
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/sarahj...-permit-holders-extremely-lawabiding-n1875089
 

rugcat

Lost in the Fog
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
16,339
Reaction score
4,110
Location
East O' The Sun & West O' The Moon
Website
www.jlevitt.com
I'm afraid the statistics cited by Mr. Lott are not reliable. The claim that 2 million crimes are prevented by gun holders every year it's also made by the NRA, and is a complete fabrication.

John Lott, president of the Crime Prevention Research Center uses statistics that have been discredited by pretty much every serious academic study.

In another example, he claims that background checks are useless. Again, this is a misrepresentation, as seen here:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/28/gun-researcher-john-lott-offers-false-firearm-s/196621

Also BTW, one of the important board members of the Crime Prevention Research Center is noted whack job and ardent gun nut Ted Nugent.

Or perhaps I'm being too harsh on Mr. Nugent. He's just a responsible gun owner who occasionally shows some exuberant high spirits:
Decked out in full-on camouflage hunting gear, Nugent wielded two machine guns while raging, "Obama, he's a piece of shit. I told him to suck on my machine gun. Hey Hillary," he continued. "You might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless bitch." Nugent summed up his eloquent speech by screaming "freedom!"

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/n...g-vicious-onstage-rant-20070824#ixzz3Y6eEKgVx
 

Vince524

Are you gonna finish that bacon?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
15,903
Reaction score
4,652
Location
In a house
Website
vincentmorrone.com

raburrell

Treguna Makoidees Trecorum SadisDee
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
6,902
Reaction score
3,781
Age
50
Location
MA
Website
www.rebeccaburrell.com
How about a Constitutional Amendment granting gun rights only to those who master basic grammar? :tongue
 

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
How about a Constitutional Amendment granting gun rights only to those who master basic grammar? :tongue

How about amending the First Amendment to require that the press spell correctly. Blame the reporter and the editor for the mistake not the person who was interviewed.
 

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
11,629
Reaction score
4,103
Location
CBUS
How about amending the First Amendment to require that the press spell correctly. Blame the reporter and the editor for the mistake not the person who was interviewed.

Call it a general proposal. Or a joke. Take your pick ;)

From Vince's link to the article. Bolding mine:

A trip to the grocery store turned into a standoff when a shopper decided to take the law into his own hands.

The shopper, who asked to not be identified, said he had two options – ignore the surrounded elderly man or do something he never thought he would have to.

While we're proposing Constitutional amendments, how about one for posters who don't use question marks or commas? :D
 

Vince524

Are you gonna finish that bacon?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
15,903
Reaction score
4,652
Location
In a house
Website
vincentmorrone.com
How about a Constitutional Amendment granting gun rights only to those who master basic grammar? :tongue

How about amending the First Amendment to require that the press spell correctly. Blame the reporter and the editor for the mistake not the person who was interviewed.

Call it a general proposal. Or a joke. Take your pick ;)

From Vince's link to the article. Bolding mine:



While we're proposing Constitutional amendments, how about one for posters who don't use question marks or commas? :D

i get y ppl would b upset. Four we be righters, and so spelling goofs and errross annoy me alot two.
 

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
20,569
Reaction score
4,814
Location
youtu.be/QRruBVFXjnY
Website
www.ifoundaknife.com
i get y ppl would b upset. Four we be righters, and so spelling goofs and errross annoy me alot two.

ferk u. :)

Has anybody seen a report on what the "assault" actually was? Physical? Verbal? Anybody noticed that, according to the guy with the gun, at least one of the people calling 911 was calling them on him? We have no idea what actually happened here.

If half of the group he drew down on had been armed and just one of them not opted to flee from the stranger with the gun, this would have been a whole different story.