Describing skin tones and ethnicities...

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Claudia Gray

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I think there's only an implicit bias (I wouldn't call it racism) when we assume everyone is white unless specified. I mean, we don't say "my friend Jack is white." Then, why, when describing my friend Joe, we have to say, "Joe is black"? Does it matter? Why doesn't it matter that Jack is white then?

Think about it. Like it or not, bias does come into play, even if we don't want to admit.

I'd agree with this and make it even stronger. I loathe the idea that "including people of other races is obviously PC," but having only white characters means absolutely nothing, because, you know, can't we assume everyone is white? Honestly, no, you can't. If you're writing about a fishing village in Sweden, create all blonde characters and knock yourself out. But if you're writing modern-day NYC/the average state university campus/the music business/etc. and everybody's white -- that's NOT a neutral decision. It's not a reflection of reality. It doesn't make you a Klansman, but IMHO it should make you question yourself.
 

lucidzfl

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Hedgetrimmer

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I think besides what is important to the story or the author, consideration can sometimes be given to what is important to the reader. In my MG novel, I worked on it for three years without ever describing my main character. I really didn't think it was necessary. Then when all the Bloomsbury cover mess started, I thought maybe young black girls would appreciate reading a book where the character looked like them without any of the issues being race. So I stuck this line in when my character compares herself to another girl she meets for the first time:

"She and I were the same shade of brown, like a cup of warm cocoa with melted marshmallows inside."

I would hope that a young white girl reading the book wouldn't stop reading because the character looks different than she. But there are woefully few books featuring black kids doing normal things and simply being kids without all the stereotyping and dysfunction portrayed in so many books.
 

Jack Newcastle

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It seems everyone today desperately tries to avoid being labeled, yet people love labels. That's how they buy toilet paper.

Regards,

Jack
 

Monlette

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Right, if you don't describe yourself or your partner's races, then why does it matter if the woman is white, black, Asian, etc.? If you consider mentioning the races of yourself unnecessary, then it would be equally unnecessary to mention the other person's, unless it has a point. It would be absurd to write:

"I, a Caucasian, went shopping in a large supermarket with my white partner and immediately on entering with my trolley I spotted a black woman a few yards in front of me..."

I see nothing wrong with stating a character's race if it is unexpected. If my story takes place in Japan, and one of the employees of a major business was white, I'd say the character is white, and not pussyfoot around it by giving her "white features" or making her do stereotypically white things.

When writers tapdance around words like "black" it makes me think that minorities make them uncomfortable and therefore they have no business putting token characters in their novels.
 

LuckyH

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Well I wasn't saying you HAD to - just that if you were going to describe skin...People are people. If they need describing, describe them in a useful, engaging manner no matter what colour they are. Even if they're sky blue with purple spots. Especially if they're sky blue with purple spots. If you don't need to describe them, then don't. Simples.

And I think being confronted with a bum like a bag full of ferrets is enough to make anyone not have skin tone in the forefront of their mind :D

Well, that’s weird, I was going to mention two ferrets,.but didn’t want the grammar nazies to pick on me again for using clichés. I’m a Londoner, mostly, and a Liberal, to confuse things, and I hate racism, homophobia, religious fanaticism, and ManU supporters, and I don’t give a fuck what colour they are.
 

Jack Newcastle

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David Brenner had a good line about this:

'I hate when people say they're not racist, that they don't care if a person is white, black, brown, red, yellow, or purple. Well, let me tell you, if a purple family moved next door to me, I'd be the first one to move out.'

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Jack
 

Mr Flibble

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Well, that’s weird, I was going to mention two ferrets,.but didn’t want the grammar nazies to pick on me again for using clichés. I’m a Londoner, mostly, and a Liberal, to confuse things, and I hate racism, homophobia, religious fanaticism, and ManU supporters, and I don’t give a fuck what colour they are.

Fine, bum like a badly parked Volkswagen then. And Man U supporters deserve all they get :D

David Brenner had a good line about this:

'I hate when people say they're not racist, that they don't care if a person is white, black, brown, red, yellow, or purple. Well, let me tell you, if a purple family moved next door to me, I'd be the first one to move out.'

Regards,

Jack

So if I note a person's skin colour but don't actually care what colour they are because they're people first....that's bad? Excuse me while I *boggle* Because I may notice, but it has no effect on how I think about them. Should it?
 

maestrowork

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A lot depends on what is important to your narrator / POV character rather than you, the author.

That's what I mean -- I never said it was relevant to me as a writer. Everything has to do with the book/story/plot.

But there's a knee-jerk idea that if a character is not of the default race (white, for example, in American literature), then it is "relevant" to mention it. That's not true. I find that more often than not, the character's eye or hair color, race, height, weight, etc. are not relevant at all.

Sometimes they are. For example, I have to describe that one of my characters is a half-breed, because that fact is a) every important to the MC as well as the readers, b) it is rather unusual for the circumstances. On the other hand, whether Lt. Andrews is white, black or blue makes no difference to the readers, the story, or the MC.
 

Jack Newcastle

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So if I note a person's skin colour but don't actually care what colour they are because they're people first....that's bad? Excuse me while I *boggle* Because I may notice, but it has no effect on how I think about them. Should it?

Of course not, the same way someone's being fat, thin, bearded, clean-shaven, etc., shouldn't have that effect, yet there'd be no hesitation in writing, 'He set his considerable weight on the sofa.' All you're saying is that this character is fat. Some people are fat, others aren't. I don't believe it particularly offensive to point that out.

Regards,

Jack
 

maestrowork

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I see nothing wrong with stating a character's race if it is unexpected. If my story takes place in Japan, and one of the employees of a major business was white, I'd say the character is white, and not pussyfoot around it by giving her "white features" or making her do stereotypically white things.

Again, it's set against a default race. By default, the readers might expect everyone to be Japanese (which is probably true, since Japan is a homogenous society). Like Claudia said, if you set the story in a homogenous society like Sweden or Japan, then go on and assume. Otherwise, if you're writing about modern-day NYC, then no, it's not good to assume everyone is white or whatever.

Still, does it MATTER? That's a question you need to ask, per your story, characterization, plot, etc. Do you have to mention the race? What purpose does it serve when a character say, "Mr. Andrews is a white guy"? I think just having Mr. Andrews to be among all the Japanese characters would be enough for us to know that, well, Mr. Andrews may not be Japanese (unless he is, then we might want to offset the false expectation): Mr. Andrews is of Japanese descent but was adopted by Caucasian parents.

Like my friend Amy. She's Korean but her maiden name is Anderson. Often she has to explain to people why. On the other hand, many people really don't give a crap. I once went on a flight using my colleague's ticket (that was before 9/11), and his name was Patrick Nicholas. No one ever asked me, "why the heck did an Asian guy like you have a name Nicholas?" It is because, it doesn't matter.


When writers tapdance around words like "black" it makes me think that minorities make them uncomfortable and therefore they have no business putting token characters in their novels.

There's some truth in this. I don't even think about it when I write about people of different races. Most often I don't find the need to have to explain or describe their races -- they're just people. I have no need to say "X is white, and Y is black, and Z is Latino." I think when you think about being PC or being "not offensive," there's probably something deep-rooted as far as races are concerned....
 

Mr Flibble

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Of course not, the same way someone's being fat, thin, bearded, clean-shaven, etc., shouldn't have that effect, yet there'd be no hesitation in writing, 'He set his considerable weight on the sofa.' All you're saying is that this character is fat. Some people are fat, others aren't. I don't believe it particularly offensive to point that out.
Well yes that's what I've been saying

I don't quite see how the quote you mentioned earlier is relevant to that though? ETA: That could just be my fever addled brain. But I've seen / heard people say that you should care about the difference and it's offensive not to. That's what boggles me. I don't care. I judge people on whether I like them, not on some arbitrary amalgamation of genes.
 
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maestrowork

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But do you also point out that someone's thin? Or just the fat ones?

Now, I'm not advocating political correctness. But there must be something inherently important to mention "considerable weight" if that builds the character. So, would you write:

He set his perfect weight on the sofa.

or

He set his feather weight on the sofa.


If not, is there a bias for fat people? Why does it matter to mention that the guy is fat, as opposed to if the guy is average or thin?

Something to think about.
 
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Polenth

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I'll attempt to explain, but if it doesn't make sense, I'd suggest Googling it. I'm not the best at explaining this, as it's a little more abstract than the usual insult.


First way: People use "oh, you're so exotic" to mean things like "you're beautiful for a *insert race* person". In this case, the 'exotic' person isn't considered beautiful by the commenter, because they don't conform to Western beauty standards. This meaning is a back-handed compliment. It's a way of saying "you're not as ugly as you could be".

Second way: It's meant sincerely, but it's used to other the person. It draws attention to how different you think they are. This makes sense if they're a sort of person the world has never seen before, but it has different implications when they're a standard human. It means you've never noticed them before, despite the fact they were right there.

(One version of exoticising is where white characters aren't described, but people of other races get flowing descriptions. It's a way of pointing big arrows at a person and saying "my, how strange you are!")

It's not an obvious insult. It's a more subtle suggestion that the person doesn't belong. It tends to leave the target feeling uncomfortable and unwelcome, rather than outraged. It can create feelings of not mattering, because if the person did matter, someone would have noticed they existed before.
 

lucidzfl

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Isn't the adage something like, most people assume, without any further information, the a newly introduced character is a male, white, in his thirties, of average height?

I pretty much only physically describe people if they deviate from the above description.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Cliched: Comparing skin to chocolate or coffee. Almond-shaped eyes.

Chocolate is cliched? So I need to rewrite this?

As I turned away I saw Benton. He waved me over. His normal tan-colored aura was a little ashen. As I neared, I noticed his normal brown complexion, which I think falls somewhere between sepia and sienna, but he argues that it's chocolate, was a little ashen also.

And I have almond-shaped eyes. What's cliched about that?
 

Ephrem Rodriguez

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Man, who could have foreseen a thread about ethnicity and race being a hot topic?
 

Polenth

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Chocolate is cliched? So I need to rewrite this?

And I have almond-shaped eyes. What's cliched about that?

A cliche is a cliche because it's used to the point where people sigh when they see it. It doesn't mean it never exists in the real world or that you can't use it in your writing. It just means everyone else and their dog has used it too.

All I'm telling you is it is used by everyone and their dog. And probably their dog's squeaky toy, in the case of coffee/chocolate skin. It's up to you whether you want to use it or not.
 

maestrowork

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Chocolate is cliched? So I need to rewrite this?



And I have almond-shaped eyes. What's cliched about that?



If their eyes are almond-shaped, it would be odd to call them kumquat-shaped, wouldn't it? If the skin color is not chocolate, what could it be? Mocha? Or mud?

:)

Cliches are not necessarily bad, if it gets the point across quickly. We can all wax poetic about the eyes, or not describe them at all. But when you're straining yourself to come up with an alternative to describe those "almond-shaped" eyes, then you're obsessing over the tree and not seeing the forest.
 
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MumblingSage

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One of the most interesting revelations of race I've read was in Stephen King's It. The reader goes through about half of the very long novel before discovering that one of the MCs is black. At least, I went through half the novel without realizing this.

I wonder if King planned this as a thought-provoking gotcha for those of us who defaulted the character to white.

I'm split. Partly I think he didn't describe the character because he didn't show up much (except being mentioned in passing, and/or on the phone) in the first half of the book, so there was no reason to describe him. The thing is, once you find out he's black, it does become something of a big deal (in back story, anyway). That said, I think It overall offered a very interesting look at bigotry in between (and during) all the squick. But that insight might quickly lead to a long off-topic post, so I'll cut myself short now.
 

job

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how do you describe people's ethnicity/skin tones/race, etc.?

It's not enough to call a character 'white' to describe her.

Unless it is a police report, it's not -- 'A white woman walked across the parking lot.'

It's, 'A woman with short, curly, red hair, chalky-pale skin, and bad acne walked across the parking lot.'

In the same way, it's not enough to call a character 'black' as if this summed up her appearance. In fact, the most noticeable aspect of the person may be that she's wearing a long, fuzzy, hot pink, fake-fur coat. It's only after you describe that coat that you say she was -- 'almost six feet tall, a young woman of mixed race, black-skinned, wide-mouthed, her hair in little braids that ran tight to her skull'.

It's not the description of skin tone that's the problem. It's using it in isolation as a descriptor for one ethnic and not another.
 

Jack Newcastle

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But do you also point out that someone's thin? Or just the fat ones?


Actually, as America gets fatter and fatter, writers will have to start indicating the thin ones.


Getting back to perceptions and presumptions, would something along the lines of the following be racist?

He was rather beside himself with this last caper, having not only fenegled his way backstage but to the after-party, and with the elite of hip-hop in abundance - with names like Cool J Kool, Mo' Kool J, and Skooly Kool D - he was sure it was going to be a scorcher. The sisters, all bumping and grinding in their hypnotic little knots, would eventually be got to, but first a drink was in order. 'Vodka,' he said to the kid behind the bar, 'no ice', and after grabbing a handful of Ritz, Arnie Gold parked his fat white ass on the couch.

Regards,

Jack
 
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