Describing skin tones and ethnicities...

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maestrowork

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Maybe not racist, but definitely stereotypical. Seen that scene a million times. The "fat, white ass" doesn't even faze me.

Also, if you don't write it right, it can come across as coy. I once read something where the author tried so hard to make us think the narrator was a man, and it turned out to be a lesbian. The consensus was "no one wanted to be fooled" and we resented the piece.
 
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Jack Newcastle

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Maybe not racist, but definitely stereotypical. Seen that scene a million times. The "fat, white ass" doesn't even faze me.

Also, if you don't write it right, it can come across as coy. I once read something where the author tried so hard to make us think the narrator was a man, and it turned out to be a lesbian. The consensus was "no one wanted to be fooled" and we resented the piece.

My exact point. Why try to fool the reader by with-holding general information? Fine for a Twilight Zone episode I suppose.

Though I read it quite a while ago, I'm fairly certain Anthony Burgess did this in M/F. I'll have to dig out my copy and go through it again, but I recall that even though the protagonist was black, he doesn't mention (it's written first-person) or give any clue to his race throughout the work. I believe Burgess was trying to pull something over on British readers of the time (1970 or thereabouts) by forcing them to think about their perceptions and presumptions: the author's white, so the protagonist must be white, and, boy, maybe I really am a bit racist for having presumed that.

Regards,

Jack
 
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Satori1977

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As noted above - the descriptions that are relevant. Whether they are fat, thin, average or whatever, if they need describing to my mind, they get described. If not they don't.

I'm an equal opportunity describer.

ITA. I think character descriptions are very important. When I am writing a story, I have images in my head of what everyone looks like. So I find ways to describe them throughout the story. You don't have to give every little detail at first meeting, height, weight, eye color, hair color, dimples, skin color, etc. BUT I feel that it is necessary to describe the people as you would the scene. I want to know if the characters are outside, what do they see? Is it winter? Summer? Are there rolling hills, snow-capped mountains, or skyscrapers in the background? If inside, describe the room to me. When reading a story, I rely heavily on these descriptive passages to put me into the scene. How is it any different for the people? They are just as important to the scene, moreso.

No, it doesn't make a differnce if Mr X is white or black, but I still want to "see" what people looks like. It helps me to be in the story more. I am a visual person, and I can't stand reading a book that is nothing but dialogue and describes nothing. Maybe it is just me. When I am out in public, I am always people watching. I notice skin color, hair type, height, weight. Do they walk with a limp? Is their smile crooked? It is what makes us all unique and special. Little differences. Why can't we celebrate those differences, instead of hiding behind PC terms, or simply not describing looks? I don't think it is racist to see how a person looks, or to describe them as different. It is only racist if you can't see past a person's skin color, their clothes, if they have tats, whatever. Noticing how a person looks does NOT equal judging them.
 
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Jack Newcastle

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Why can't we celebrate those differences, instead of hiding behind PC terms, or simply not describing looks?

Well said. I love my city for its diversity, and I should be allowed to comment on that diversity without someone crying foul. Perhaps everyone's a bit too thin-skinned these days.

Regards,

Jack
 

shadowwalker

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ITA. I think character descriptions are very important. When I am writing a story, I have images in my head of what everyone looks like. So I find ways to describe them throughout the story.

I'm just the opposite. As a reader, it drives me batty when the author demands I see the characters' looks exactly the way they do. Is there some reason why I should? Does my seeing a character with dark hair somehow ruin the story if the author saw them as blond? Only if the character's blond hair is found on the murder scene, I suppose. Or their vanity/poor taste is reflected in their having dyed their hair blond. Then the physical look is important. Otherwise, I (the reader) have a mind and an imagination - let me use it.

And that's reflected in my writing. I have my picture of the characters - but unless there's a good reason to put that into the story, I don't. There are much more important aspects to the people in the story (IMHO).
 

Mr Flibble

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As a reader, it drives me batty when the author demands I see the characters' looks exactly the way they do.

As a reader, for me too little description is as bad as too much. I like a rough idea at least, to put me there, in the scene, so I can picture it in my head. Same goes for people - give me a clue what they look like, in an interesting way.


Good job we're all different eh? Or all the books would be the same.
 

shadowwalker

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As a reader, for me too little description is as bad as too much. I like a rough idea at least, to put me there, in the scene, so I can picture it in my head. Same goes for people - give me a clue what they look like, in an interesting way.

I like a description of the scene - can't operate in a vacuum :) But tell me "living room", not "living room with the chintz curtains and green spotted sofa centered against the wall and bright red roses in a china vase..." - unless you use that to tell me the owner of the living room is compulsive about neatness or balance or something.

Good job we're all different eh? Or all the books would be the same.

Argh! Conformity! Save us! Save us! :D
 

Mr Flibble

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Argh! Conformity! Save us! Save us! :D

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated and we will add your distinctiveness to our own :D

Tbh a lot depends on genre - fantasy readers expect more description because you can't just say 'I was walking down the Strand' and have people picture it - you have to work at it. I describe a fair bit ( only telling details like, not the dreaded laundry list. I hope) - and I've been told off by die-hard fantasy fans for not describing enough. But I'll send my soul to Niflheim before I whack out huge blocks of description just for that.

But all readers are different. Some like description, some don't, same as soem writers do and some don't. The trick is, if you're going to describe, doing it effectively.
 

sarahfru

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So here's a question I'm sure has come up before:
Without sounding racist and presumptuous, how do you describe people's ethnicity/skin tones/race, etc.?\

I don't think you have much to worry about. You can give ethnicity when you psychically describe a character. I think the only thing that would make a reader uptight is constantly, consistently harping on the race of your characters. I suggest taking a look at Zadie Smith's White Teeth.
 

shadowwalker

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Tbh a lot depends on genre - fantasy readers expect more description because you can't just say 'I was walking down the Strand' and have people picture it - you have to work at it

Oh definitely. Fantasy, sci fi - any "world" that is significantly different from the world people live in needs much more description and detail. When reading fantasy, I do look for more so I can picture this "new world". And of course, the 'creatures' in that world need to be described in more detail as well. So yeah, it depends on what audience you're writing for.
 

Satori1977

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Oh definitely. Fantasy, sci fi - any "world" that is significantly different from the world people live in needs much more description and detail. When reading fantasy, I do look for more so I can picture this "new world". And of course, the 'creatures' in that world need to be described in more detail as well. So yeah, it depends on what audience you're writing for.

Agreed. I write mostly romance and fantasy (sometimes together, sometimes not). In romance, I think readers expect the love interests at least to be described because of the sexual attraction that takes place. As for fantasy, pretty much what you said. If you are in a new world or have strange creatures, it helps to describe them.
 

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Actually, as America gets fatter and fatter, writers will have to start indicating the thin ones.

For clarification, and a little patriotic defense, NOT just America. There are 1.6 BILLION overweight adults and 400 MILLION that can be called obese. A lot more than just the United States.
 

Monlette

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Excactly. In my WIP I describe a male character as having a million dollar smile, hair that's been highlighted by the sun, and a chisled body.

Beyond that my protagonist just describes him as movie-star hot, the sort of guy that makes girls get up out of their seat so that they can get a closer look. That's it. No hair color, no eye color, no clue as to height or build. I don't describe anything in detail.

But my betas all sigh and tell me that they can picture him so clearly. I imagine its a different picture for each, but I'm cool with that. They're supposed to see their perfect adonis, not mine.
 

Lady Ice

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I'm just the opposite. As a reader, it drives me batty when the author demands I see the characters' looks exactly the way they do. Is there some reason why I should? Does my seeing a character with dark hair somehow ruin the story if the author saw them as blond? Only if the character's blond hair is found on the murder scene, I suppose. Or their vanity/poor taste is reflected in their having dyed their hair blond. Then the physical look is important. Otherwise, I (the reader) have a mind and an imagination - let me use it.

And that's reflected in my writing. I have my picture of the characters - but unless there's a good reason to put that into the story, I don't. There are much more important aspects to the people in the story (IMHO).

All I do for description is rough build, any remarkable features about their appearance and whether they're good-looking or not if that is important to the story. Normally it's a case of saying that they are plain.
 

shadowwalker

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The idea of beauty only needs to match the characters' ideas in the story.

Well, to a certain extent, but it's hard to feel the romance if the one the character loves doesn't fit in with the reader's idea of "hot". Then it's, well, if she likes him, whatever... Akin to the toad your best friend likes. :tongue So that's why I shy away from details. ;)
 

AZ_Dawn

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I once thought that if my old gunner wanted to get "poetic" about his lady friend's skin, he'd say it was like black powder. (I know, very unromantic, but he's a gunner, not a poet.) Then I found out that powder burn was a racial slur. Oops. :eek:
 

Satori1977

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Well, to a certain extent, but it's hard to feel the romance if the one the character loves doesn't fit in with the reader's idea of "hot". Then it's, well, if she likes him, whatever... Akin to the toad your best friend likes. :tongue So that's why I shy away from details. ;)

Exactly....I don't think you should give out details like you are talking to a sketch artist after a crime. Every reader's picture should be different, and unique to what they like. But you need some details. Don't just tell me the guy is hot. On the other hand, I hate, HATE, when an author will describe their character, then say he or she looks just like a celebrity. Like I read a story one and the hero was said to look "just like Brad Pitt". Now yes, Brad Pitt is considered attractive, and I do see it (sometimes), but he does nothing for me. So don't put an exact image in my head like that.
 

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Exactly....I don't think you should give out details like you are talking to a sketch artist after a crime. Every reader's picture should be different, and unique to what they like. But you need some details. Don't just tell me the guy is hot.

Precisely - broad brush strokes to give the outline, a hint of what they're like ( I like details that also hint at personality), then let the reader fill in the details.
 

Monlette

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For those of you who like to put black people in your novels, but don't have black friends, I'd like to dispel some myth that are commonly taught to whites, but which blacks find insulting:

1) Black people aren't just like white people, only darker.

2) Black people don't wish they were white. Maybe a few do, just like a few women wish they could be men. But for the most part black people are proud of their hertitage.

3) Black people don't all act the same and talk the same and like the same things. There's a fine line between stereotype, culture, and subculture.

(You can have a character named "Deelish" who has a bad weave, four inch nails, and carries a big gold purse, talks gangsta, and that might not be racist since there are people like that. But Deelish wouldn't be caught dead at a lunch table with a bunch of uptight crackers straight out of the Brady Bunch. It would be more convincing to put "Byron" there, who is president of the chess club, shops at Banana Republic, and only dates Asian girls.)
 

juniper

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Oh hey, I found this thread while doing a search on "character race." The last few days I've been working on a spreadsheet for my characters to keep them all straight. I hadn't realized until then that all my characters are white.

My WIP is set in Oregon (where I live) on the coast where probably 90% of the people there in Real Life are white. The rest are mostly Native Americans and Hispanics. Very few blacks and Asians in Oregon. I moved here from SoCal, a much more diverse population, and am still surprised by the lack of minorities here.

So, even though the novel's exact location is fictional, it's set on the true Oregon coast and I should use the true population mix there, yes? It would seem very false to have a couple of blacks and Asians and whites and Hispanics all hanging out at the coffee shop, although that would be appropriate in SoCal.

It just feels wrong to me, somehow ... as if I'm ignoring huge numbers of people ... although in Real Life the Oregon coast is almost completely Caucasian ...

And then again, as so many have pointed out here, the characters' races aren't a part of this plot, so don't need to mention at all. I, the characters' creator, didn't even think about their races* until I started doing the character sheets. So I think not mentioning it is ok.

I'm glad the search function here works pretty well. This thread really helped me.


*question for me to ponder: did i not think about this before now because it truly isn't important to the novel, or because i, as a white person, use "white" as the default? if i were a black person writing about the Oregon coast, i'd still have to use mostly white characters, because that's just the way it really is here, right?
 

KyraDune

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Is the word black offensive? I don't find the word white offensive, though I might take some offense at being referred to as a cracker. In one of my current WIPs I have two very dark skinned men which I described as black. I could have called them obsidian, but that felt a bit silly. Lighter skinned people I've referred to as tanned, as their skin is more brown than black, and with one girl I used the word nutmeg as it seemed to fit her. Normally, I try to be a bit more descriptive than just saying black or white, but for the two men I referred to as black I simply couldn't think of a more descriptive word.
 

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Oh hey, I found this thread while doing a search on "character race." The last few days I've been working on a spreadsheet for my characters to keep them all straight. I hadn't realized until then that all my characters are white.

My WIP is set in Oregon (where I live) on the coast where probably 90% of the people there in Real Life are white. The rest are mostly Native Americans and Hispanics. Very few blacks and Asians in Oregon. I moved here from SoCal, a much more diverse population, and am still surprised by the lack of minorities here.

So, even though the novel's exact location is fictional, it's set on the true Oregon coast and I should use the true population mix there, yes? It would seem very false to have a couple of blacks and Asians and whites and Hispanics all hanging out at the coffee shop, although that would be appropriate in SoCal.

It just feels wrong to me, somehow ... as if I'm ignoring huge numbers of people ... although in Real Life the Oregon coast is almost completely Caucasian ...

And then again, as so many have pointed out here, the characters' races aren't a part of this plot, so don't need to mention at all. I, the characters' creator, didn't even think about their races* until I started doing the character sheets. So I think not mentioning it is ok.

I'm glad the search function here works pretty well. This thread really helped me.


*question for me to ponder: did i not think about this before now because it truly isn't important to the novel, or because i, as a white person, use "white" as the default? if i were a black person writing about the Oregon coast, i'd still have to use mostly white characters, because that's just the way it really is here, right?

I have a similar issue with my WIP, set around Budapest. I really didn't see many Black people there, and I am striving for a very realistic setting. I have enough times that my MC interacts with tourists that I could make one Black, so I might. But it was strange to see so few Black people in real life, too.

You could always make one of your characters be someone who moved there, but I don't think you have to, certainly. Either way, imho :)


kyradune, I don't think the word black is offensive, although I tend to think of really dark skintones as really 'dark', myself. Really 'black' can sound funny, I think, because we use it as a race name. But I don't think it's an offensive thing to think. I don't know. What does really 'white' say to you? I usually get called 'really pale' at the beach, although I've had some folks call me 'really white' meaning my skin. I'd probably avoid it because of the confusion, myself.
 

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Juniekat, just remember, just because it's mostly white doesn't mean it's entirely white. I grew up in rural Washington, which does not have a large black population, but there was still a black girl in my grade at school. (Yes, a black girl. That probably wasn't too fun for her.)

If you really want to add some diversity to your story, then go for it. Sure, don't make its demographics like that of SoCal, but there's most likely some black people in your fictional town, and maybe one of them just happens to be one of your characters.

I don't think it would be a travesty if you chose not to, though. The bigger problems come when people write stories set in metropolitan areas or in the South and people of color still don't show up.
 
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