The viability of villain protagonists in YA?

Nogetsune · May 9, 2014

Walter White, Frank Underwood, Dexter Morgan, Light Yagami, Richard III. In a lot of other media, a story from the perspective of it's bad guy is not all that uncommon. It seems that especially in the world of television drama and theater there is a rouges gallery of unsavory protagonists. These can range anywhere from misguided, Machiavellian extremists doing the wrong things for good reasons(Dexter, Light Yagami etc..) to downright selfish, power-grabbing villains who's primary goal is looking out for number one(Frank Underwood, Richard III etc..) to those that fall somewhere in between.

Personally, I love these kinds of protagonists. Heroes and pure of heart characters just bore me. I find the beat-em-up action hero types to be too straightforward in their methods and rather uninteresting to write. I like writing manipulation. I like writing cunning, smart characters who weave complex plots and use others to their advantage instead of just bashing faces in. The chessmaster schemers and cunning puppetmaster types who, when needed can still take action but also can be -subtle- when the time calls for it. Also, I enjoy the characters who have darker sides to them, and have motives that are more selfish then selfless. The Frank Underwoods, Walter Whites and Tony Sopranos of the world. The bad guys.

Here is the thing, though. While I like writing such characters, I also like writing -teen- protagonists. I only recently left my teenage years and as a result my head is still very much in that space(which is why I probably enjoy YA XD). I enjoy writing for a younger audience because I like putting my mind back in that headspace and enjoy, well, being able to escape the very new-for-me reality of adulthood. Anyway...enough ranting, let me just get to my point. I want to know, do you here all think there is room in YA for self-serving, and/or outright villainous protagonists? Do you think a story following a character resembling what somebody like President Snow or any other tyrant or dictator was as a teenager on their way up the latter of power has a place in YA? What about those extremist types? Or maybe even a teenage mad scientist? Is there a place in YA for self-serving or extremely misguided protagonists?

Any thoughts about this would be appreciated!

Sage · May 9, 2014

I love me a good villain protagonist (I'm pretty sure there's at least 1, maybe 2 oxymorons in that sentence

). I haven't seen many in YA, or maybe not any except possibly Kelley York's Hushed, which I haven't read yet. In MG, however, I know there are the Artemis Fowl books, so there shouldn't be any reason why it can't be done in YA.

I have a novel that's split between the hero and the villain's POV, both working as protagonists and as antagonists for each other. While betas seemed to like my villain, he was the cause of rejection for at least a few agents. I can't say whether that's the personality or they didn't think they could sell a villain MC.

Nogetsune · May 9, 2014

Thanks for your thoughts! Yeah, I remember the Artemis Fowl series from when I was younger. Fun read, though I never finished the entire series sadly. Anyway, most of my stories tend to be less "hero vs. villain" and more "villain on their way up to the throne/CEO's chair/whathaveyou" or possibly "villain vs. villain" or "villain vs. force of nature." I'm not sure if this makes them an -easier- sell (On one hand it could as in many cases the antagonist is usually more deplorable then the protagonist, or at least on the same level of wickedness.) or not, though.

Sage · May 9, 2014

Not a YA, but it kind of feels like one (the author's other books are YA), but have you read Vicious by V.E. (Victoria) Schwab? One of my favorite reads this year.

Nogetsune · May 9, 2014

No, but I'll certainly have to check it out! I think the thing that is different about the kind of characters I like to write, though, is they are more in the vein of a young Richard III or Frank Underwood; the self-serving character after greater personal power/wealth/personal gratification via revenge/some other selfish goal(s). This is not to say they are total complete monsters incapable of having friendships, lovers etc... Quite to the contrary, it is the fact that they have these things and must try to try and balance and rectify them with their ambition and wicked ways that is partly responsible for making them interesting to me.

My only worry is the fact that following a largely -selfish- protagonist who's motive is not selfless may be a turn off. I love my misguided extremists who are doing the wrong things for the right reason just as much as the next guy(and I do have a few protagonists like this), but sometimes I just want to follow that self-serving *****/*******, and I want to see if I am not alone in this. Maybe I'm just really tired of heroes? Who knows. XD

Anyway, more thoughts on this would be appreciated so please keep them coming!

Rhoda Nightingale · May 9, 2014

I need more villain protagonists in my life. Go ahead and make them full-blown evil. It will be *fun*!

That said, I'm struggling to think of a villain protagonist who's also a girl, and they tend to take up most of the marketplace in YA. The closest I can think of is The Betrayal of Natalie Hargrove, but in that case, I just wound up feeling sorry for her--and a little grossed out by the message I think the story was trying to get across.

Not necessarily saying that's a bad thing, but I would totally go for a female villain protagonist, if only to subvert some tropes.

spikeman4444 · May 9, 2014

Yes, it can be done, but it has to be done well and it won't appeal to everyone...just like all other ideas.

kuwisdelu · May 9, 2014

Go for it. They get eaten up in anime. Death Note. Code Geass.

Nogetsune · May 10, 2014

Yeah, Code Geass was kinda a big inspiration for me, to be honest. Back in high school I was positively obsessed with that anime. It was just so different from other mech animes, both due to the protagonist Lelouch and the fact you got a "commander's eye view " of most of the mech battles that gave them a feeling of watching an exciting chess match as appose to following the soldier on the front lines. Needless to say, my protagonists are much more -selfish- then Lelouch was, but the point stands none the less.

Morgenna · May 10, 2014

That is sort of what I'm working on now. The MC starts out as a child and becomes a teenager, raised as an apprentice to an assassin. She really only will probably have one crisis of faith in the book but other than that it is a job to her and she is good at it.

breaking_burgundy · May 10, 2014

Nogetsune said:
Thanks for your thoughts! Yeah, I remember the Artemis Fowl series from when I was younger. Fun read, though I never finished the entire series sadly.

Artemis Fowl was a huge inspiration for me.

(Though I too never finished the series. I lost interest after the fourth book, when AF started going "good.")

Sage said:
Not a YA, but it kind of feels like one (the author's other books are YA), but have you read Vicious by V.E. (Victoria) Schwab? One of my favorite reads this year.

I love this book.

Sage · May 10, 2014

Artemis goes good?

I've only read the first one.

breaking_burgundy · May 10, 2014

Nogetsune said:
Personally, I love these kinds of protagonists. Heroes and pure of heart characters just bore me. Yep. I find the beat-em-up action hero types to be too straightforward in their methods and rather uninteresting to write. I like writing manipulation. I like writing cunning, smart characters who weave complex plots and use others to their advantage instead of just bashing faces in. Yep. The chessmaster schemers and cunning puppetmaster types who, when needed can still take action but also can be -subtle- when the time calls for it. Also, I enjoy the characters who have darker sides to them, and have motives that are more selfish then selfless. For some reason, I usually find selfish protagonists more believable. The Frank Underwoods, Walter Whites and Tony Sopranos of the world. The bad guys.

Here is the thing, though. While I like writing such characters, I also like writing -teen- protagonists. I only recently left my teenage years and as a result my head is still very much in that space(which is why I probably enjoy YA XD). I enjoy writing for a younger audience because I like putting my mind back in that headspace and enjoy, well, being able to escape the very new-for-me reality of adulthood. Anyway...enough ranting, let me just get to my point. I want to know, do you here all think there is room in YA for self-serving, and/or outright villainous protagonists? Yes. Do you think a story following a character resembling what somebody like President Snow or any other tyrant or dictator was as a teenager on their way up the latter of power has a place in YA Yes, though I can easily see that turning into a series that would cross over into the adult market.? What about those extremist types? Or maybe even a teenage mad scientist? Only if the science sounds relatively plausible. Is there a place in YA for self-serving or extremely misguided protagonists?

My thoughts: I love villain protagonists, I love writing villain protagonists, I love cunning and selfishness and murderous rage.

But I really hope villain protagonists don't become "the next big thing." Because then I will get bored with them.

Sage · May 10, 2014

I was thinking the same thing, actually. I was like, Ooh, maybe this thread will inspire folks to start writing villain protags.

And then I started thinking about the market flooded with them.

frimble3 · May 10, 2014

If you have any doubts about the audience for this, start with sort of 'YA Evil', and work up. Leave the reader wondering what your protagonist will become, or do, next.
Lots of scope for ruthless characters in high school. Cheerleaders, prom queens, getting into good colleges. Manipulating cliques. There was a movie, 'Election', about a student government election.
And, I gather we're talking about 'villains' as a sort of anti-hero, but I doubt that anyone thinks of themselves as a villain, they've all got reasons for the way they think and act.
*None YA example: the movie 'My Best Friend's Wedding'. I've always thought that was a remake of any one of a number of movies about the sweet girl, trying to get married, only the boyfriend's ex is trying to ruin things, only told from the POV of the scheming ex. And you can really see the thought processes of the scheming ex. She thinks she's in the right, and perfectly rational, almost 'til the end. You could just skip that 'learns better' stage.

Nogetsune · May 10, 2014

.I'm not quite sure I can consider Lucy of Elfin Leid a straight villain protagonist, though. I mean, she was hardly what I would call selfish, and in many, many ways was at least somewhat justified. She was more a tragic victim taking her anger out on a world that hated her as appose to a selfish ***** out for herself, at least to me. Light Yagami of deathnote, however, I will more then agree with. He was evil, albeit more of the extremist type then the self-serving type, but most definitely -evil- to the core. Moreso then even Lelouch, and thats saying something. I sadly know of -nothing- like all these animes in the YA world. Only Aretmius Fowl(which could be classified as MG) counts, and even then in later books he is a lot less villainous. I know that there are -plenty- of villain protagonists in litterature, but I wish there was more in sci-fi, fantasy and YA, as most of the ones I know are from classical literature(Lolita, Paradise Lost etc..), realistic fiction(Dexter, American Psycho) and horror(countless works by Poe, gothic horror in general etc..). Maybe it's up to -us- to bring the trend to YA?

Windcutter · May 10, 2014

Sage said:
Artemis goes good?

I've only read the first one.

Grudgingly at first, but then he becomes quite a hero.

He never loses his edge anyway. Also, there are hints at romance at the end of the series which grossed a lot of people out despite them being very subtle.

JustSarah · May 10, 2014

Windcutter said:
Grudgingly at first, but then he becomes quite a hero. He never loses his edge anyway. Also, there are hints at romance at the end of the series which grossed a lot of people out despite them being very subtle.

If they are subtle, what's wrong with it?

Samsonet · May 10, 2014

JustSarah said:
If they are subtle, what's wrong with it?

The romance is between a teenage human and a eightysomething fairy. It didn't bother me, but I can understand why people would be squicked by it.

Since my last post didn't seem to go through:

My favorite villain protags are the ones who know they're the bad guys, but don't let it stop them. Like Megamind, or Doctor Horrible. Of course, those stories are more superhero-meta than they are villain-centered stories, but as long as we're on the topic I thought I'd mention them...

Nogetsune · May 10, 2014

Yeah, grey on grey can be fun, too, but I like the flat out selfish types, at least as far as writing things myself is concerned. Selfishness, however, doesn't nessicarly preclude some traits we can empathize with. I actually find selfish characters to be quite believable, as all of us have our selfish sides, and being very selfish doesn't mean you can't have positive relationships and other traits beyond your selfishness. I guess that does kinda make my ideas somewhat grey, though my protagonists can do some terribly despicable things in the name of their selfish desires so I still qualify them as "villain protagonists" even if -they- believe their selfishness is justified.

EDIT: ninja'ed several times over. I will say that a story can work fine with no villains. Antagonists, however, are a different story. You can have an -antagonist- who is not a villain, even if the protagonist is a hero. An antagonist can even be a non-living force of nature such as a storm or societal pressures. The only "qualification" for an antagonist is that they/it are what is blocking the protagonist from their goals and/or largely the source of the conflict. For most heroes, this usually means the antagonist is a villain, and for most villains, their antagonist would naturally be a hero. However, the protagonist need not be a -hero- and the antagonist need not be a -villain- and vice-versa. You can have villains duking it out with other villains, heroes facing shades of grey characters you may not even be able to classify as a villain, villains facing against the same grey characters and even two grey characters going at it. Or any of these facing some non-living force. Heck, while I don't read a lot of sports litterature, I'd assume that such lit may have some stories that don't have villains or heroes...just friendly rivals facing off, neither of whom are particularly heroic or villainous. A story dosen't need a hero or a villain, it needs a protagonist and an antagonist, and those roles are totally divorced from "hero" and "villain" as far as I use and understand the terms.

Also, as to the megamind/Dr. horrible thing, both of those remind me of the book "Soon I will be Invincible" which, is a great read that I recommend. It has multible protagonists, mind you, but one of them, Dr. Impossible, is very much in the same vein as Megamind and such, and may have -partly- inspired them to an extent. He is probally more -evil- then Megamind, but has the same kind of silver-age flare and does realize he is the "bad guy." It's a fun story and I recomend it. I also have one character I love to write who REALIZES they are selfish, but simply dosen't care because in their worldview, everybody is fundamentally selfish and they believe that if anybody else was put in their position they would do the same thing as them. They see "good" and "evil" as labels created by the less exceptional/privileged individuals in the world to make themselves feel like they are superior to the exceptional/privileged. Said character thus dosen't believe themselves -evil- , but knows that in the eyes of -conventional- morality they are...they just don't think conventional morality has it right. Needless to say, I have too much fun writing this character and should stop before I get even -more- ranty.

Sage · May 10, 2014

Samsonet said:
My favorite villain protags are the ones who know they're the bad guys, but don't let it stop them. Like Megamind, or Doctor Horrible. Of course, those stories are more superhero-meta than they are villain-centered stories, but as long as we're on the topic I thought I'd mention them...

Yes, Dr. Horrible is a huge source of inspiration for my supervillain character. Surprisingly, I still haven't seen Megamind or Despicable Me, despite both of them coming out around the time I was thinking of that novel.

Mine is certainly aware that he's a villain for the sake of being a villain. If asked, I'm sure he'd say it was because it was totally logical that he'd get the attention of my heroine by becoming her arch-nemesis. The truth is he's being manipulated by a bigger villain (who, despite eventually getting a POV, is never considered a protagonist the way my original villain is).

So there's another option, I guess, other than the villain being against a hero or a set of heroes, but he could be against an even bigger (or rival) villain.

(Also, I guess I can't complain about Artemis too much, since I have some redemptive moments planned for mine, though he never quite becomes "good")

emax100 · May 10, 2014

Rhoda Nightingale said:
I need more villain protagonists in my life. Go ahead and make them full-blown evil. It will be *fun*!

That said, I'm struggling to think of a villain protagonist who's also a girl, and they tend to take up most of the marketplace in YA. The closest I can think of is The Betrayal of Natalie Hargrove, but in that case, I just wound up feeling sorry for her--and a little grossed out by the message I think the story was trying to get across.

Not necessarily saying that's a bad thing, but I would totally go for a female villain protagonist, if only to subvert some tropes.

The problem is getting the audience to genuinely identify with them. It worked for Dexter and Walter White and Vic Mackey because the audience could identify with their motives and their perceived moral imperative for doing what they did no matter how wrong headed it was. Also note that writing a sort of villain protagonist that audiences can identify with is going to be a much steeper uphill battle and may even require collaboration of sorts with unusually skilled writers. It worked for Dexter, Walter White and Vic Mackey because their characters were written by truly exemplary talents; Dexter, Breaking Bad and The Shield are widely recognized as some of the best written shows in the entire history of television. The problem with a pure villian protagonist is that the audience will only be invested in them in the hope that they get what is coming to them. If they don't, I am not sure where the appeal would be.

Samsonet · May 10, 2014

^this. Even in the first Artemis Fowl book, I doubt it would have been as popular if Holly and the LEP hadn't gotten viewpoint chapters. Basically, Artemis is kidnapping someone and holding her for ransom. He becomes more sympathetic once the reader learns his motives, but before then? Well...

EDIT: ninja'd! By "^this" I meant the post above the post above this one.

Windcutter · May 10, 2014

Samsonet said:
The romance is between a teenage human and a eightysomething fairy. It didn't bother me, but I can understand why people would be squicked by it.

Twilight!
But obviously a female supernatural being who is positively ancient is squickier than a male one.

What about books with an unreliable narrator who turns out to be a villain by the end? Or a Descent Into Darkness type of character development? Like in classic tragedy where the main character ends up being consumed by their fatal flaw instead of overcoming it.

Samsonet · May 10, 2014

Windcutter said:
Twilight!
But obviously a female supernatural being who is positively ancient is squickier than a male one.

I don't think it's a gender-based thing, actually. Edward is physically seventeen. Holly, despite being relatively young for fairy standards, is 3-4 feet tall with the proportions of a grown woman. And there's also Artemis' issues with relationships in general...

/derail, my apologies to the OP

The viability of villain protagonists in YA?

Nogetsune

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

Nogetsune

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

Nogetsune

Rhoda Nightingale

Vampire Junkie

spikeman4444

The snozberrys taste lke snozberrys

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

Nogetsune

Morgenna

breaking_burgundy

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

breaking_burgundy

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Nogetsune

Windcutter

JustSarah

Samsonet

Just visiting

Nogetsune

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

emax100

Samsonet

Just visiting

Windcutter

Samsonet

Just visiting