The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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Ed Williams

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A journey over to the Great and Wonderful Land...

....that we all recognize as Poz reveals that the message boards are much lighter at this hour. Apparently a staffeth member or two has spent double time on the boards, casting aside dissenters who are not fully enamoured of PublishAmerica, the New Three Stooges, and the new mini-stooge, Shemp. These manipulations do bring forth one question:

Why is it, in this Great and Mighty Land, that no money can be found for marketing purposes, yet some can be found for policing the bulletin boards? Is this the behavior of a publisher of tradition? Or is this the behavior of that most common of animals, a proliferate species in the Land of Poz, the yellow bellied vanity sapsucker?

D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the going gets tough . . . the tough get going. Who's with me? Let's Go! Come on! AAAAEEEEEGGGHHHH!!
 
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SeanDSchaffer

Julian Black said:
I don't think it's a mental health issue in this case so much as a self-esteem issue. To criticize his publisher's core business practices comes awfully close to home.

To be a PA author and admit they are a scam means you have to face the fact you've been duped. That's a terrible reality to face, and a lot of people will try to avoid that as long as they can. After all, a new PA author has already made a lot of noise to friends and family about getting their book accepted by a real, "traditional" publisher. It's proof that they are an honest-to-goodness author. It's a dream come true.

To go back to everyone and say, "My publisher is really just a vanity press, and it turns out they will publish just about anything. I have no more a career as an author now than I did before I submitted the manuscript to them," has got to be one of the most hurtful and humiliating things that can happen to an aspiring author.

Most people fade away out of embarrassment when they have been scammed, not just by PA but by any professional con artist. Grifters at any level count on their victims' embarassment and refusal to speak up. A small percentage of people get angry, tell their stories in public, and make their complaints known.

But once in a while, you run across people who insist they have not only not been scammed, but that the scammers are providing a great opportunity, and only the "losers" who, for whatever reason, couldn't "cut it" complain.

I've encountered people like these, and after hanging out here and reading threads on PA's message boards, I think Ciggy Boy is one of them. I don't know if his books are any good or not--I haven't read any excerpts from them. Maybe they could have been published by a reputable publisher; maybe not. I don't know.

What I do know is that the people I've met who defended their favorite scammers and charlatans all have one thing in common--they have a pattern of making bad life decisions. They aren't stupid, but whatever they are defending is usually the latest in a list of schemes they have fallen for. They are the kind of people who talk as if their big break is just around the corner, and they are going to stick it out while all the crybabies and doomsayers bail out. They also tend to like being part of an "inner circle"--it makes them somebody.

I don't really know anything about Ciggy Boy's life beyond what he has said on the PA board and in his forays onto this one--maybe he's the exception to the rule I've observed. [shrugs]

If "getting back" at him is your thing, ignoring him completely will suffice. But I don't see that there is any way to not talk about him on this forum. If he spouts ill-informed, self-serving crap, somebody needs to point out that Mr. Emperor is, as usual, butt-naked.

Julian,

It was just a thought that occured to me that made me bring up the mental health business. I wasn't calling H.B. mentally ill; I was simply curious if it could be the case or not.

Honestly, I hadn't thought about the self-esteem thing before. I seem to remember a time not too long ago when I was just like H.B. when it came to PA -- a little less noticeable, but still I was a lot like him. I remember having thought I was somebody, and also that it took a while for me to accept that my book had been printed by a vanity press. In fact, ironically this post is the first I've made in which I've verbally associated PA with the term 'vanity press.'

Whatever the case is with H.B., I feel bad for the man. I've never read his works either, but I think someone with his drive and passion could definitely hold a lot of potential in the writing world IF he were willing to learn how best to use it. Right now, I think I'm beginning to see where you're coming from with what you said. When I was an ardent PA supporter, I simply could not bring myself to see that maybe I could be wrong. It was a painful truth I had to admit to within myself before I could actually leave the 'fold,' as some have called it. The truth hurts even now, but with the support and help of friends like I've found on these boards, the hurt isn't as bad as it was when I first realized what was going on.

:Shrug: I guess also, that my statement about 'getting back' at H.B. might not have been exactly the best thing to say. I didn't really stop and think that getting back at someone would only make them want to get revenge for it, and thus push harder until they drive their point home. I hadn't thought about that until my Mom's advice concerning School Bullies came up in my mind a few minutes ago.

She would tell me, "Just ignore the bullies, and they'll go away."

I did; they didn't. They only got worse until I had to stick up and say something. Then I got the **** kicked out of me for having said they were wrong.

Of course, this isn't the Schoolyard, and H.B. isn't going to beat anybody up physically -- unless you count that one time earlier in this thread when...:Huh:

Anyway, I think I may have changed my mind concerning talking about him. He may rant and carry on about how stupid he thinks people are who disagree with him, but I think I now understand that if he's not pointed out, he'll just continue his antics and worsen the situation.

You've all convinced me. Thank you kindly for pointing out the flaws in my thinking. (And no, this isn't sarcasm, I'm being totally honest with you.) :Thumbs:

Talk to you all later.
 

PVish

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Traditional?

As a new poster (Thanks for the reputation square, Ed!), I need to confess to y'all that I am—Ack!Gasp!—both self-published and POD'd. However, I write for a niche market in a definite geographical area and I have a strong local readership, so these methods have worked for me. Plus the first press run (1,000 copies) of my self-pubbed novel were partially funded by an arts group, so I made enough for another press run, a really nice computer, and a nicer deposit into my bank account. With POD the money ebbed away for a few months, but then it flowed back.

Anyhow, I recently sent a manuscript to Infinity whom I've used before. In the info sheet they sent me that gave me the timetable of what was to happen when with my manuscript was this sentence:

"Our revolutionary publishing method has eliminated the risk, heartache and rejection that have long been associated with traditional publishing."

"Traditional publishing"—Where have I heard that term used before with the words "heartache" and "rejection"?

PVish
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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DaveKuzminski said:
I found exactly one email address for the FTC that may not be active any longer. It's [email protected].
I do believe that is actually the email address for reporting Spam and other illegal emails. As such, it might not be appropriate for CCing your PA correspondence.
 

James D. Macdonald

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[email protected] is the address for forwarding spam to add to their spam database.

The only way to report fraud to the FTC seems to be through a form on their website: https://rn.ftc.gov/pls/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01

Meanwhile, here's the FTC on deceptive advertising.
 

DaveKuzminski

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Some of us do not have any objections to the use of self-publishing, POD, and vanity as there are valid uses and circumstances in which those can be the best choice for a writer. What many of us object to is the misrepresentation that typically comes with such choices because those offering those choices are giving sales pitches and any deceit in their words hurts fellow writers.

Yes, Nicole and Jim, but does VoldePrint know that? Most people upon facing a weapon aren't going to step closer so they can look down the barrel to see if it's loaded.
 
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Ed Williams

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"Infocenter" on the policing of the PA Boards...

As every veteran here will tell you, this message board is for author and book writing related issues only. Is, will be, always has been. If you want to discuss any other topic, you are invited to take it to the private board.

We have been very lenient lately, allowing all kinds of issues to be discussed, to see if self-regulation would have a future on these forums, but you all have seen the results, and they have at times been underwhelming.

So we're back to monitoring the board as we have done it for years -- we stay out of discussions when we can, but we step in when we must. Trust us, countless regular board visitors appreciate this. You are all great folks, but with roughly seven million hits per month here, you are not the only ones whose preferences count.

Thank you for your understanding and your co-operation.
Hmmm, how would we know who appreciates it and who doesn't when only those who are pro-PA are allowed to express an opinion? And isn't it interesting that we just mentioned that PA was policing its boards just an hour or so ago, and now this...

Such goeth another day in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz...

(Le thread is located here: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8459.htm)
 

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Ed Williams said:
Hmmm, how would we know who appreciates it and who doesn't when only those who are pro-PA are allowed to express an opinion? And isn't it interesting that we just mentioned that PA was policing its boards just an hour or so ago, and now this...

Such goeth another day in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz...

(Le thread is located here: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8459.htm)


Oh good grief! It's just more spin on the censoring thing. "You all can't behave like adults and follow the party line, so we're going to help you do it."


Someone give me a barf bag. I think I'm gonna be sick.

Jenn
 

NancyMehl

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Exactly right...

Ed Williams said:
...about HB, and this is coming from someone who has posted lots of things about him in the past - if you ignore him, you're driving a knife through him. This is a man who is selling no books, and has no following to speak of beyond the PA boards. He desperately seeks attention, and anything said about him is something he'll love, trust me. Don't believe me? Do a Google search on H. B. Marcus - remarks about him on threads like ours is where he gets what little notice he does. You will note that his own website doesn't show up until the second or third page, which says it all.

Y'all want to really hurt HB where it counts? Want to make him pay for all his misleading activities and lies? Just do one simple thing...

Ed's hit the nail on the head. Marcus is a tiny, frightened fish who has landed in a small, muddy pond. He's found that splashing around a lot gets him attention - and he craves it like a drug addict craves his next fix. I believe that some of the bad reviews and comments on Amazon and in other forums are posted by him! The reason? Just for the attention. For once in his life, he feel important. He's not willing to give that up - and if you get in his way - the splashing begins. And it keeps up until all the other fish in the pond are upset.

Does he have any talent? Who knows. I talked to someone who read one of his books. Frantic, jumbled, poor grammar, awful editing. There might be a smidge of real talent - a spark that could lead to something - but that will most probably never happen. Marcus doesn't seem capable of dropping his need for adoration long enough to actually learn anything. He will probably just fade away someday - after he's worn out everyone around him.

I hope it doesn't happen. But it isn't up to anyone here - or anywhere else. It's up to him.

In the meantime, we need to quit giving him attention if at all possible. It just stirs him up.

Nancy
 

Julian Black

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PVish said:
As a new poster (Thanks for the reputation square, Ed!), I need to confess to y'all that I am—Ack!Gasp!—both self-published and POD'd. However, I write for a niche market in a definite geographical area and I have a strong local readership, so these methods have worked for me.
You are exactly the kind of author for whom self-publishing/POD is a viable alternative. It's good to hear a success story like yours--welcome!
 

Julian Black

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SeanDSchaffer said:
Julian,

It was just a thought that occured to me that made me bring up the mental health business. I wasn't calling H.B. mentally ill; I was simply curious if it could be the case or not.
Sorry--when I sit down and write long posts, I end up leaving out bits here and there. I realized it was speculation, not an assertion. I could have made that clearer.

Honestly, I hadn't thought about the self-esteem thing before. I seem to remember a time not too long ago when I was just like H.B. when it came to PA....I remember having thought I was somebody, and also that it took a while for me to accept that my book had been printed by a vanity press.
I'm not a PA author, so I can only try to imagine what that was like. To believe your book was chosen on its merits and published because it was good, by a publisher who had faith in it--only to discover they didn't give a damn and be told you were out of line for expecting them to? That's a hard, nasty lump to swallow; it's no surprise that so many PA authors take a long time to do it. It takes guts to do that, and even more to go out in public and tell people about it afterward.

When I was an ardent PA supporter, I simply could not bring myself to see that maybe I could be wrong. It was a painful truth I had to admit to within myself before I could actually leave the 'fold,' as some have called it.
When I was in my early 20s, I ended up in a self-help group that had some very cultic overtones to it. I was a committed member for quite a while, and saw it as the perfect, time-tested solution to a particular problem. Those people who had a hard time with it, according to Groupthink, just weren't doing things right--and I followed that line of "thought" for a couple of years. Eventually I realized that the group, despite all its claims, was not the right place or method for everyone with that particular problem, and that it was actually harming some people and making their problems worse.

Questioning the group's effectiveness or appropriateness for certain people was frowned upon. Suggesting there were other ways of dealing with the problem were either ridiculed or treated as blasphemous. Members I thought were my friends turned on me when I asked too many uncomfortable questions, pointed out logical inconsistencies in the group's "dogma," or talked about different options for handling the problem. Other members, who were still struggling and miserable despite their best efforts, often found themselves insulted, patronized, and ridiculed when they asked for help--it was their fault they weren't happy, and if they would just do more...

Looking back, I'm surprised it took me so long to leave. I was in it for 4-1/2 years, and it took me a year and a half to finally make the break, but it's easy for me to forget how much of a psychological "stake" I had in being a member. In the group, I was somebody for the first time in my life--and that can be pretty damn addictive. When I read the PA message boards, however, it takes me right back; the group dynamic is often identical. So it's no surprise to see HB acting like he does; as a thrice-published PA author, he's the equivalent to some of the longtime members of that group I was in, the ones who actively cultivated guru status. He's somebody, thanks to PA, and he's going to ride that for all its worth.

I guess also, that my statement about 'getting back' at H.B. might not have been exactly the best thing to say...I hadn't thought about that until my Mom's advice concerning School Bullies came up in my mind a few minutes ago.

She would tell me, "Just ignore the bullies, and they'll go away."

I did; they didn't. They only got worse until I had to stick up and say something. Then I got the **** kicked out of me for having said they were wrong.
Ignoring bullies never works--as a kid who got picked on in school, I heard that same lousy piece of advice over and over again.

Bullies need to be exposed, ridiculed, and kicked repeatedly in tender places by as many people as possible. Bullies are bullies because they know they can get away with it. Ignore them, and they see it as cowardice--challenge them, and you get to see who the real cowards are.

Anyway, I think I may have changed my mind concerning talking about him. He may rant and carry on about how stupid he thinks people are who disagree with him, but I think I now understand that if he's not pointed out, he'll just continue his antics and worsen the situation.
Let him rant and rave and pretend he's Mr. Somebody all he wants--he's digging his own hole, and one day he'll look up and realize he doesn't have a ladder to get back out of it...
 

SeanDSchaffer

Julian Black said:
Sorry--when I sit down and write long posts, I end up leaving out bits here and there. I realized it was speculation, not an assertion. I could have made that clearer.

I'm not a PA author, so I can only try to imagine what that was like. To believe your book was chosen on its merits and published because it was good, by a publisher who had faith in it--only to discover they didn't give a damn and be told you were out of line for expecting them to? That's a hard, nasty lump to swallow; it's no surprise that so many PA authors take a long time to do it. It takes guts to do that, and even more to go out in public and tell people about it afterward.

When I was in my early 20s, I ended up in a self-help group that had some very cultic overtones to it. I was a committed member for quite a while, and saw it as the perfect, time-tested solution to a particular problem. Those people who had a hard time with it, according to Groupthink, just weren't doing things right--and I followed that line of "thought" for a couple of years. Eventually I realized that the group, despite all its claims, was not the right place or method for everyone with that particular problem, and that it was actually harming some people and making their problems worse.

Questioning the group's effectiveness or appropriateness for certain people was frowned upon. Suggesting there were other ways of dealing with the problem were either ridiculed or treated as blasphemous. Members I thought were my friends turned on me when I asked too many uncomfortable questions, pointed out logical inconsistencies in the group's "dogma," or talked about different options for handling the problem. Other members, who were still struggling and miserable despite their best efforts, often found themselves insulted, patronized, and ridiculed when they asked for help--it was their fault they weren't happy, and if they would just do more...

Looking back, I'm surprised it took me so long to leave. I was in it for 4-1/2 years, and it took me a year and a half to finally make the break, but it's easy for me to forget how much of a psychological "stake" I had in being a member. In the group, I was somebody for the first time in my life--and that can be pretty damn addictive. When I read the PA message boards, however, it takes me right back; the group dynamic is often identical. So it's no surprise to see HB acting like he does; as a thrice-published PA author, he's the equivalent to some of the longtime members of that group I was in, the ones who actively cultivated guru status. He's somebody, thanks to PA, and he's going to ride that for all its worth.

Ignoring bullies never works--as a kid who got picked on in school, I heard that same lousy piece of advice over and over again.

Bullies need to be exposed, ridiculed, and kicked repeatedly in tender places by as many people as possible. Bullies are bullies because they know they can get away with it. Ignore them, and they see it as cowardice--challenge them, and you get to see who the real cowards are.

Let him rant and rave and pretend he's Mr. Somebody all he wants--he's digging his own hole, and one day he'll look up and realize he doesn't have a ladder to get back out of it...


Julian,

Thanks for helping me to understand this situation better. I admit to being somewhat naive about things every once-in-a-while, and though it takes me quite some time to learn, I'll get it all eventually. In the mean time, I hope you didn't think I was offended or anything like that by what you said before. I know I may have sounded a bit tense in my writing, but that honestly wasn't my intention. I also have a major tendency to think out loud -- or in the case of a message board such as this, I tend to think over the keyboard. If I don't see it before me or hear it from my own mouth, my mind is set up in such a way that I can't process the reasonings that are going on about me. That's why my previous post was worded the way it was.

Anyway, this has proven a highly profitable thread for me to read. There's a lot of great information concerning my 'Publisher' and those who try to keep it afloat. And it's also been very enlightening as far as H.B. and his antics go. I look forward to reading a lot more.


Have a good night!
:Thumbs:
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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DaveKuzminski said:
Yes, Nicole and Jim, but does VoldePrint know that? Most people upon facing a weapon aren't going to step closer so they can look down the barrel to see if it's loaded.
What I'm saying is, you maybe oughtn't to borrow that particular weapon for bluffing PA with. Not when the FTC needs it for actual shooting.

That is to say, [email protected] is set up for a specific purpose: reporting spam. Sending email to it that isn't forwarded spam not only is useless in the fight against PA, it also dilutes whatever its effectiveness may be in the fight against spam. That's some super bad netiquette, d00d.
 

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Dolan said:
My e-mail from PA, re the audit nonsense, has greenish slime all over it. How can that happen? How did they get slime to travel through cyberspace?

The name is Voldeprint. What more needs to be said. :scared:
 

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Welcome, PVish! I echo the other sentiments here-- nothing against self- or vanity-publishing as long as you know what you're getting into.

And Sparhawk: Thanks so much for not hating me for the advice. ;) I had a writer-friend (she died a few years ago) who had about the worst grammar skills you can imagine... but she hired a copy editor to fix up her screenplays before she submitted them. Her storytelling skills were excellent; she just never really learned proper grammar. I'm learning that's more common than I had realized.

A few notes:

If you'll allow me to furrow my brow and become Professor Mcsomethingjenna for a moment, we're meandering all over the place in this topic. I know the regulars don't mind it, but anyone who's new to this thread is going to be confused as all get-out. Please try to keep the off-topic stuff to a minimum here (move it to Office Party or Take it Outside) and let's stick to the issues.

Correct: I have not deleted any of Shemp's posts here except for one topic that I closed (where I deleted everyone's posts, having nothing to do with Shemp).

Diana: Way to go on the TV taping!

All: I'm in hyperdeadline mode right now (fertility book due next week, Celine edits due at the same time) and I just got two new book offers yesterday. I'll still be around, but probably less than usual for the next week or so.

As a bit of what I hope will be inspiration, I wanted to take a second to tell you the recipe for my success...

I began with screenplays. Wrote about 10 of them, landed a few agents (most scammers, two legit) and a manager. Multiple options and contest wins, but no productions. I kept at it and at it, but ultimately realized I was going to have to make some money while I awaited my box office debut.

So I wrote for magazines. For the longest time, I remember being stalled at about $100 an article. I had steady work from small publications, but it took me a while to build my clips and learn the ropes and which rules to break. Eventually I was making a good living just writing for magazines, e-zines, and greeting cards.

Then I e-published my first book-- a guide to writing for magazines! It sold well for an e-book. But I wanted it to be a print book and I couldn't find a publisher... too crowded a category, they told me. I did land a legitimate book agent, though.

Because of my magazine clips, I got hired to write two children's books for Mason Crest. The money was small, and no royalties (work-for-hire), but I finally had my first book credit.

At the same time, I wrote to a publisher who published books about kids with disabilities and asked if they ever considered doing a kids' book on Down syndrome. They held onto my resume and letter for a year before hiring me. Really small money. No royalties. Work-for-hire. I don't regret it.

My advances on the next several books (for small- to mid-sized presses) were in the $2500-5000 range. I was writing at least 4 books a year, often more, while supplementing my income with magazine work and greeting card work.

Now I don't even need to write book proposals... I get calls from agents regularly, saying, "Editor so-and-so told me you were terrific, and I have a client who needs a ghostwriter/co-author..." My advances are now in the $50,000 range, plus royalties. I'm about to start my 15th and 16th book.

Oh... and I sold that e-book. ;) I wound up rewriting it completely and expanding it because so much time had elapsed between the e-version and the print version. It's now Make a Real Living as a Freelance Writer.

My point in all of this is that paying your dues can feel like it's taking forever, and those big publishers can look so unattainable. They aren't. It takes one break. One break after busting your butt and working on your craft and proving yourself reliable and easy to work with.

I could very easily have fallen for PA's lines if they had been around a few years sooner, when I was a little greener. My e-book could easily have been a PA book. And that wouldn't have changed anything that came afterwards. It was a pretty linear progression-- small projects with low sales and crap pay to medium-sized deals to great deals. In other words, all of you who are feeling blue about this PA mess, know that you can pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move on from this. You can make a career of this. I didn't have any connections or special expertise; I just kept working at it until I got good enough for the bigger houses to take notice.

Oh, and I submitted like crazy.

Your time as a new writer is best spent looking for more fruitful opportunities, not trying to eke out another handful of sales of your PA book. Set it aside (you can revisit it later), work on something else, and don't let this experience stop you from writing or submitting elsewhere. You deserve to find out what real publishing is about, from a publisher who really will "take a chance" on you. You can get there. And your progression may be a lot faster than mine. Keep the faith.

Over and out.
 

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DisInfoCenter are you listening?

An author wanted to know why her topic was pulled. The Logo reply is copied upstream. This is the author's replies.

Thank you for your response. I respect your decision, but must also say that I do not completely understand. I realize that by responding I may be in danger of not being allowed to post, but there continue to be several threads on this lounge that are not writer related.

I don't understand how, with the roughly 7 million hits per month on this site, that posting such a thread as the one I posted could have a negative impact. I am one of your authors and this topic is what my book is about. This is part of helping to raise awareness in the community, as well as perhaps help people make a decision to purchase one of the books on this topic that your authors have written.

Posting this thread helps to raise awareness. As I said before, I am saddened by the response, but I do and will respect it. This will be my last thread on this topic, it is with sadness that I say this.

A saddened author

When she gets no support from anyone, she later posts this:

I am not saying I don't support PA and I am not trying to stir up trouble. I am simply saying that I am an author for PA and this topic affects my life. The domestic violence agencies are the ones I seek when promoting my book. There are many posts made on this boards relating to authors lives. My children are still affected by child abuse and this topic directly impacts my life.

I think it best if I just silently slip out at this time. I apologize if I have caused any trouble, or created anyone to have any ill feelingw. I truly apologize. Those that have my eamil can contact me privately. Again, I am very sorry. I am feeling quite bewildered at this time and feel it's best for me to just slip out the back door.

I hope she finds her way here.

Even sadder is another author's response. Jenna, please emoticon me should I start begging for censorship.

I agree with PA;
I continue to learn from posts on this board.
About writing! I agree with PA in spite of the fact that I have accidentally posted a topic not appropriate for this board on writing".
I hope whever I do so it also gets pulled.

When I was new I was not aware of what each board topic was for. Maybe a line explaining on top of each topic listing would help new posters.

I really don't want to read about other issues here....So many other places to post them and share....

Anyone know of a place where one can post and share freely?
 

Galoot

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JennaGlatzer said:
As a bit of what I hope will be inspiration, I wanted to take a second to tell you the recipe for my success...
In case you didn't already know, folks, The talented and successful Ms. Glatzer is not yet 30. Still just a pup. So take heart.
 

mdin

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That author's last post in the thread is chilling. I know we've talked the cult thing to death, but seeing it happen before your very eyes is something else. Wow.
 

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I think a big dose of the hammer....

XThe NavigatorX said:
That author's last post in the thread is chilling. I know we've talked the cult thing to death, but seeing it happen before your very eyes is something else. Wow.
...that PA holds over its authors' heads is the "be grateful to us because we published you" deal. At some points along the way comments by their supporters have even intimated that no one else would possibly publish their books, so they should be on their knees giving thanks for PA. (Remember "Carl Ross" over on the Publisher's Weekly PA thread, he said that so much that it was almost like a mantra). For someone who is desperate to be published, or wanting to be published at all costs, PA's propaganda would have exactly the intended effect. I think that's what you're seeing in this instance.

And now on to much more serious matters - from Galoot we find:

In case you didn't already know, folks, The talented and successful Ms. Glatzer is not yet 30. Still just a pup. So take heart.
Galoot, take it back, it's a filthy, rotten lie! I figured Jenna was in her early twenties at the worst, it's one of the reasons I hang out here, a personal "youthfulness by association" type thing. Don't destroy my fastly greying illusion with this "not yet 30" stuff!

Neidermeyer:
We now consecrate the bond of obedience, assume the position."
 
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James D. Macdonald

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NancyMehl said:
I believe that some of the bad reviews and comments on Amazon and in other forums are posted by him!

My opinion is that if you tracked 'em down, an awful lot of the slimer/slammer "reviews" and guestbook entries originate in a townhouse in Frederick, MD, and the rest come from PA authors.

Which PA authors? Either the ones who are trying to foster the "us against them" attitude, or the ones who've been slammed on the PA boards and can't fight back there, or the ones who feel that certain PA authors led them astray and are to blame for their present circumstances. Who knows?
 

Diana Hignutt

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"You've Been Published! What Comes Next???"

While going through my PA correspondence to make copies for the tv reporter, I rediscovered a classic. When PA sent me my dollar advance they also sent several pages of information on how to market my book effectively, entitled:

You've Been Published! What Comes Next???

You wrote the book. Then you got it published. Having done these things, you've cleared the first two hurdles. But then what? Once the book is out, how do people find out about it? How do you get people to buy it? Promoting your book is the third major hurdle, and this document will provide some tips about how to get your book into your reader's hands.

Because you're the expert on your local area, we rely on you to promote your book at the local level. When your book does well locally, then we can take it to the national level. And remember, regardles of what we do, nothing is better for a book than a proactive author!

A promise I can assure you they do not keep. It's my publisher's job to market my books.

Next comes a section on book signings and reading and how to arrange them, including this classic:

The most obvious location to do a booksigning is in bookstores. The author should make a point of meeting the store manager with a copy of their book in hand. Introduce yourself, explain that you are a local author with a book, and that you would love to arrange a book signing in their store. Make a point of selling yourself to the bookstore.

Hmmm, my publisher is handling this for me for Empress of Clouds. I just have to show up, look pretty, and be as witty as possible.

Generate as much publicity for yourself as possible. Write press releases and send them to local radio and television stations, newspapers...

My publisher does this for me too...

2. Interviews and Media Promotion

The Cardinal rule of dealing with the media is persistence. ... It's extremely important to sell yourself, and if that doesn't work, just be a pest...

My publisher handles this too.... (I don't know if they know about the pest thing.)

3. Use Your Friends

Nepotism can do wonders for your future...just don't get your friends in trouble.

My publisher has never once asked me to have my friends help them do their job of marketing my book.

5. Always be prepared

Always have a copy of your book on hand. Keep a box of them in the trunk of your car, and mention it to anyone you meet. Everyone is a potential reader, and if they don't know about your book, then you are only hurting yourself. Exchange business cards, take names...You may even want to tatoo the word "Author" or the name of your book on your forehead for everyone to see! Well, that may be going a little far, but you get the idea. Make sure people know about you, and always be prepared to push you book off to anyone you meet.

I'm sorry? That may be going a little far?

6.
Promotional materials

Why do I need promotional materials?

Well, you don't need them. You should probably have them anyway. As the Author--that is, the major marketing force behind your book--you'll want to have an arsenal of tricks at your disposal for promoting your book. Promotional materials, such as postcards, flyers, posters, bookmarks, etc., are a standard part of the well-armed author's bag of tricks...

Where do I begin?

The first step is to decide what to have made. Common items include:

postcards
posters
flyers/signs
bookmarks

Other options may be mugs or candies with printed wrappers. There are a wealth of possibilities.

I bought this stuff with my PA book, not knowing any better. I spent a great deal of money of a giant poster, bookmarks, flyers...

My new publisher has not suggested that I should be responsible for anything like this.

Publishers are supposed to be the major marketing force behind their books.

So, What's PublishAmerica Doing?

Yes, please do tell us, we're very curious...

By
now, you're probably wondering what PublishAmerica is doing for you while you're doing all of this. Well, I'll tell you. The first thing we do is create and send out a direct mailing for your book...The mailing is sent to every person on the mailing list that you provided to us after signing your contract. These mailings allow for pre-order of your book at a special discounted price.

Meanwhile, if your book isn't already finished, it is undergoing the production process. Our editors are hard at work preparing your book for print, and your cover is being designed. Once this is finished, the book is printed.

We then announce your book to the industry, listing it with Bowker's Books-In-Print, with wholesales like Baker & Taylor, Brodart Co., and Ingram, and we make it available through the PublishAmerica website, and online bookstores such as Amazon.com, Borders.com. BN.com, Chapters.com, and through 50,000 correpsonding bricks' and mortar stores. Your book will be available through these channels within six weeks from the time you receive your complimentary author copies.

yeah, I guess...

My new publisher sent review copies three and a half months in advance of publication to the major industry review publications (the review in Publishers Weekly alone sold hundreds of copies to bookstores and libraries). They sent books to the major chains for stocking consideration. They sent press releases. They sent catalogs to the major chains and to hundreds of independant bookstores. They advertise to book buyers in indsutry publications and to readers in sci-fi/fantasy publications. They work to get me signings. They attend the major industry conventions and conferences: The BEA, the New York is Book Country Event. In short, they work to market my book in a real, meaningful way, not the lip service that PA pays to marketing.

In Conclusion...

Herein, I have addressed promotion issues in a very lite fashion. This is a subject that it would be easy to write an entire book aobut, and a five page doucment will barely scratch that. So, if you're hungry for more, let me point your towards John Kremer's 1001 Ways to Market Your Books, which is available for purchase from PublishAmerica's website at a discount from the cover price.

In Conclusion...PublishAmerica is a cleverly disguised vanity press which tells authors to market their own books and at the same time sabotages their efforts to do so with their business paln: short discounts, badly edited books, no return policy, no marketing beyond a direct mailing aimed at friends and family and listing books with wholesalers, no catalogs, no promotion, no editorial consideration of acquisitions, promises of marketing they have no intention of keeping, and maintaining a messageboard culture that fringes of cult behavior.

Note: The typos and bad grammar in the quoted material are PA's not mine (though I think I accidentally fixed a couple of things).

I hope everyone finds this as educational as I did.

diana
 
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robeiae

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James D. Macdonald said:
My opinion is that if you tracked 'em down, an awful lot of the slimer/slammer "reviews" and guestbook entries originate in a townhouse in Frederick, MD, and the rest come from PA authors.

When I was first researching publishers (meaning those of the not-so-traditional nature), I obviously took a look at some of the books available from different ones on Amazon and BN. Some of what I saw is old news; it was hashed out on this thread when reviews were the topic. However, one thing I failed to mention was this: many older reviews for PA books were submitted anonymously by "a reader," and on Amazon, the only info about these reviewers was their location. A surprisingly large number came from the state of... Maryland! In some cases, PA books had only two or three reviews, always with maximum stars, and all of them were from the same state...Maryland!

I understand that Iceland's population reads more books per capita than any other nation. Perhaps MD is trying to take the crown. Is there a grassroots reading movement there? If so, the leadership of MD deserves alot of credit.

Perhaps this indicates an evolution of PA policy; early on, authors were treated to these good reviews to help keep a positive spin on PA. Now, after AN and other negative events, PA is helping to foster the "us against the world" mentality that pervades its cadre of customers (some of whom are authors, some of whom are not).

Rob
 
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Johanna

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XThe NavigatorX said:
That author's last post in the thread is chilling. I know we've talked the cult thing to death, but seeing it happen before your very eyes is something else. Wow.
I think this is pretty interesting ( taken from http://www.davearnott.com/6signs.html ):

1.) Cult leaders are strong, controlling, manipulative people who demand submission from members. In the corporate cults of the Information Age, voluntary membership is maintained via the satisfaction of affiliation.

The leaders of PA are indeed very good at manipulating their authors (and who knows what they do to keep their "editors" in line). We all know what happens when they don't submit (rude, sometimes threatening, letters, holding books hostage, blackmail, and so on). With PA, people get to "play" published, with just enough action (if you try hard enough) to actually feel like they're building a career: there are book signings, articles in the local paper, perhaps a copy of one's book in the local library, and your very own website.

2.) In the polarized world view of cults, the group is good, everything else is bad.
In some organizations, leaders may promote "us-or-them" thinking that portrays competing companies as enemies to be defeated.


"Those writer's advocates are baaaaad people, they're working with the Big Bad Publishers too keep new authors out of the industry, so that they can keep all the money and fame for themselves. Oh, and don't listen to those pesky little writers who left us—they're frauds and loonies! Stay here, on our nice little private boards, where nothing can harm you..."

3.) Cults try to manipulate feelings, usually using group pressure to influence responses. In organizations, peer pressure may be used to induce employees to participate in holiday activities or contribute money to company causes.

This is classic PA. As soon as someone starts to question things, the faithful supporters are there to verbally beat the uppity author into submission.

4.) Individual interests are subordinated to the interests of the group. In corporate cults, this can take the form of working massive amounts of overtime, letting vacation days expire, or accepting a transfer to another city.

Individual PA authors' success has never mattered to PA. Whenever anyone questions the price of their books, and returns, PA (and a throng of followers) is ready with "The price doesn't matter. We can't take returns, because we're thinking of you—we're doing this so we can afford to publish more first time authors. Don't be so selfish! Buy some of your own books and shut up." It's always about "We're about to sell our one millionth book!", despite the fact that this adds up to abysmal sales for individual authors. The same thing happens on the message board, where authors don't speak of their work as their own, but rather as a part of PA. It doesn't matter if their book doesn't become a bestseller, because sooner or later someone is bound to succeed, and that means that PA is a success, which means that its authors are a success. Of course, to become the bestselling author the PAers are waiting for, some PA authors are willing to loan huge sums, overcharge credit cards, and spam and harass potential readers.

I think they key is devotion. Instead of devoting themselves to their books, PA authors end up devoting themselves to PA. People go so far as to open bookstores (or similar shops) where they can stock no only their own book(s), but the books of their fellow PA authors as well (despite risking reputation and money).

5.) Cult leaders do not tolerate defectors or critics. When people leave a "cultish-corporation" they are unlikely to stay in touch with their former colleagues.

We all know how much PublishAmerica loves its critics, right? And as soon as someone on the messageboards grumbles: ban, ban, ban! Some of PA's authors have also been known to attack editors and reviewers who hold an unfavourable opinion of their work and/or PA ("Don't criticise PA! They warned us about elitist editors, and obviously they were right!")

6.) Members of overtly religious and traditional cults sever ties with family, friends, goals, and interests. Corporate-sponsored functions can also separate employees from their community.

PublishAmerica definately does everything in its power to keep its authors separated from the rest of the writing community.


Another interesting link: http://www.ufcw.net/weekly/archive/Weekly-archive-9-6-2002.html
 
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