The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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Ed Williams 3

Well...well...well...

HB,

Glad to see you found us, and offered your responses. Takes balls, and I respect that. With all that being said, there still are a lot of holes in the side of your boat. For example:

1. My publisher paid the freight to send me to several of the largest southeastern book and trade shows. Shows like SEBA, the Southern Festival of the Book, the St. Petersburg Festival of Reading, and others. Most true publishers have a stake in the outcome of a book's success, and do invest money in their authors, in one way or the other.

2. Libraries? When I refer to libraries, I mean more than just the ones in your immediate area. Getting books placed through author intervention and hand delivery is a PA trademark, but hardly means widespread distribution of a title.

3. The Midwest Book review is basically a joke.

Now, explain one thing to me if you would, given that this particular topic was deleted off the PA boards. Why is it that PA books are not registered in the Library of Congress? And I'm not talking copyright registration, as you can register a copyright for a cow, but a Library of Congress registration? Hearing that explanation would be of interest to all here, I'm sure.

In the end it comes down to this - HB, if you were approached by a traditional publisher who offered you a nice advance for a future book, would you take it? Or would you stay with PA?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Well...well...well...

I think you meant cataloged by the Library of Congress, Ed.

In fact, there are eight AmErica House books cataloged there, though none within the past two years. How they came to be cataloged I don't know. Perhaps it was before the true nature of AmErica House/PA was widely known.

Another question that comes to me are exactly who are these authors who were offered publication by major legitimate presses but who chose to go with PublishAmerica instead? Titles/Authors/Dates? That story sounds a lot like the urban legends where a friend of my uncle knew the guy it happened to.
 

dgkgoldberg

sigh

I will be a tad surprised if HB comes back to answer any of these questions.

I am the evil wench who, over on the Gothic.net boards, informed a PA writer that she could determine her sales figures quite easily. PA books were hand sells, however many she sold would give her the sales figures.

I also informed her that shilling a community that contains several writers, that you've never posted to before, is not a way to sell books.

I also commented that I did not expect her to respond, that I expected her, like most PA writers to have done a drive by.

I later saw her sobbing tale of woe on the PA boards about this incident of PA bashing. She was comforted by her husband who reminded her of the lowly status of writers on that message board.

She was most upset because I dared to say that she would not return and talk about these things.

She didn't.
 

FM St George

Re: sigh

well, therein lies the problem - all the PA authors who bleat such wonderful things on the PA boards don't have the cojones to come onto other boards where negative replies will be edited out and have a serious discussion.

instead, I expect to see a snarky post from HB on the PA boards in the next few days about how "he told us" and more chestpounding about how great PA is, yatta yatta yatta...

oh, and that Ohio signing? They raffled off an electric guitar in the mall - it might have helped get interest, but I somehow doubt that every author can afford to toss such a luxury item out at a booksigning. As for the mistakes, well... while I believe that the bookstore manager was dishonest in not telling HB upfront that he couldn't DO a POD signing due to company policy, I don't subscribe to the paranoia frame of mind that says that it's all a Giant Conspiracy to Hold The Good Authors Down, Don't Ya Know.

the funny thing is that I frequent quite a few writing boards and I hardly EVER see other PA authors there - instead they're in their own masturbatory circle on the PA boards stroking each other's ego and reviewing each other's books and ignoring that there just might be other boards that may offer BETTER advice than you get from each other at PA...

so it goes...
 

dgkgoldberg

sad

It was sad, a writer who I respect offered her some very constructive cirticism that she could have used --- and I've even been known to be helpful from time to time (I am a bottom-feeder but also a Stoker finalist and I like helping horror writers grow) but instead of seeing the potential for help she saw an attack on her already perfect work.

shoot, I'd love someone to crit my work
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: sad

I was explaining PublishAmerica to someone this evening. His reaction was that their company mascot must be a mosquito because it's a bloodsucker that flies by night.
 

FM St George

Re: banned from TWO PA boards!

www.publishedauthors.net/...afe/48.htm

sneaky ones forgot to ban my password on this board... until I dared to point out the obvious and suddenly, again, my password is "invalid"...

guess my emails must be getting into the trash bin as well since they've never answered me...

*laughs*

the sad thing is that this illustrates yet another PA problem - like, the books AREN'T getting out to the customers, even after they've been ordered and paid for.

and so it goes...
 

thorgunna

Re: What's so sad about all this is...

I just can't believe that every POD outfit is as bad as PA, 1stbooks or IUniverse.

But then, I don't live in Kansas, neither.

Peg
 

FM St George

Re: What's so sad about all this is...

I honestly don't think so either - if I PAID to have a book put out by Xlibris or the other POD's; I'd be on the phone and screaming that as a customer, I'm not getting what I paid for.

but this is where PA has you by the tinsel, so to speak - since they "pay" you a buck, you do feel somehow obligated to not only defend them, but to accept a level of customer service that wouldn't stand if you were paying for it. Even with all the criticism of the other POD's, you can at least honestly say that you get what you pay for.

and, as I've said here and on other boards - there ARE areas where a POD is possibly the way to go. If you're publishing a family history that may not be of any interest beyond your local circle or area history that won't go beyond a few hundred miles, then you may want to consider a POD since most small publishers won't see it as worth the cost of printing. Of course, that's a decision you have to make and shoulder cost-wise, but I do believe that POD's do have a place in the market. As do the smaller publishing houses and the people who run their own publishing companies and take on all the work - at least they know what they're doing!

but by advertising themselves as being equal or better than the "traditional" publishers who pay the author and have a decent distribution system, PA does do the other PODs a major disservice, I will say that.

jmo, ymmv...
 

darbyj

Thanks, FM

They didn't remove my password from that site either, so I was able to post...for now. I can't believe they actually said, "PublishAmerica books have the same chance of making it onto a bookstore shelf as do the books of any publisher."

Blahchh. I feel so dirty. I'm going to go throw up now.


Lisa
 

FM St George

Re: Thanks, FM

and it's GONE!!!

w00t... less than an hour...

tsk, tsk... another "timeout" for you!

*chuckles*
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Thanks, FM

"PublishAmerica books have the same chance of making it onto a bookstore shelf as do the books of any publisher."

Where did they say that?
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: Thanks, FM

James Macdonald, they said it in the topic linked above. Here's the full quote in case they squash that topic:

infocenter
Administrator


1/18/2004 09:12:49
RE: What's the deal!?

Message:
Sheryl,
What you are saying is not true, though there are many cases of the policies of individual bookstore managers differing. There are literally dozens of stories on our message board with facts that run exactly contrary to what you say. No major chain bookstore, including Barnes and Noble, has any such policy at all.

See these links, the info below, and the quote below from a Barnes and Noble VP, for the facts on this issue:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/8622.htm
www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/6654.htm
www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm

No publisher guarantees book sales to bookstores. Major chain bookstores have no policy against stocking non-returnable books. Actually, Barnes and Noble has quadrupled the number of books they order from PublishAmerica during the past year and we sell to them directly each and every day. Thousands, each and every month, of PublishAmerica books are sold in bookstores. Hundreds of bookstores across the nation stock our books.

PublishAmerica books have the same chance of making it onto a bookstore shelf as do the books of any publisher. It may be of interest that less than one percent of all authors ever see their books stocked by bookstores at all. For bookstores to stock all books published would mean adding 15 feet of new shelf space each and every day.

Therefore bookstore managers must be selective, so they decide based on what that they think will sell. If they do think it will sell, they will stock it, and vice versa. So, if your book is romance and the store's shelves are overflowing with romance novels, the odds are they won't stock it. And, if your book is a history of agriculture in Tupelo County, Mississippi, the bookstore manager in Seattle may feel the same way.

Bookstores will generally stock a book that they think will sell, regardless of whether it is returnable or not, and regardless of whether it is printed on digital or offset presses.

Please do not judge a bookstore's corporate policy by what one local manager or one letter tells you. You can find stories on our website about, for example, two Borders locations in one town: one manager insists that he cannot carry a book, the other orders 40 copies. Bookstore managers are human, they have strengths and weaknesses like all of us, they can make good judgment calls and bad ones. One will like your book, the other may not. Apparently, the one you spoke to was unaware that B&N bookstores order directly from us and from Ingrams, the major book distributor, every day.

Also worthy of note, most of your books are physically, actually, in stock at Ingram, with copies in their Oregon and Tennessee warehouses, and at a Barnes and Noble distribution center, ready to ship immediately.

A Vice President at Barnes and Noble wrote us a letter recently, saying,

"We very much believe in print-on-demand (POD) technology as a cost-effective tool available for publishers to extend the range of their title offerings to Barnes & Noble... We believe that POD represents an opportunity to increase the range of titles we offer...

We will continue to stock every title that you publish, which enables us to rapidly replenish our stores..."
 

vstrauss

Re: Thanks, FM

Ah, the usual mix-n-match cut-n-paste job, recycling verbiage from their website FAQ section and from previous scoldings of naughty authors.

- Victoria
 

darbyj

Re: Thanks, FM

Yeah, that was fast, wasn't it, FM. I think they were waiting for me.

I can't believe they can actually state that their books have the same chance of making it to a book store shelf as any other published book. Were I a newbie reading it, I'd believe it.

Sigh, I don't mind what they do but how they do it...it's just wrong. I don't know how these people sleep at night.

Lisa
 

Dragon Chow

Re: Thanks, FM

A Vice President at Barnes and Noble wrote us a letter recently, saying,

"We very much believe in print-on-demand (POD) technology as a cost-effective tool available for publishers to extend the range of their title offerings to Barnes & Noble... We believe that POD represents an opportunity to increase the range of titles we offer...

We will continue to stock every title that you publish, which enables us to rapidly replenish our stores..."

They've been quoting this "recently" received letter forever. I wonder how recent is "recently"? :rolleyes

DC
 

HBMarcus

Jeepers!

I had no idea there was so much time in an author's life to spew such nonsense. I would have expected two or three, but now I see there is actually nothing going on in your lives. No publisher prospects beyond paying to have it done. No chance of distribution in the big stores as offered by PA's partnership. Total denial of the fact that traditional publishers watch the movers and shakers at PA.

Would I go with another publisher? If I didn't give PA the first crack or chance to match, what would the new publisher think of me?

Did the thought enter your minds that popping out one book means 'flash in the pan'? You negotiate the contracts for each one after you've proved your worth. If you worked on the greatest novel of all time and it didn't get the recognition you expected, you post here. Otherwise you should be trying to make something of what you worked so hard for. Do your efforts mean so little to you? WOW! That's all kinds of sad to hear.

Look, if you want to dash your dreams, that's your business. People with considerably larger expectations about life are doing well. If you're already well known in the book writing field you can profit from PA. They are quicker at putting a book together. Some have done this already to avoid the two-year slush pile. Some first timers have done so without looking back.

We're happy folks, you're not. Sad day in you-land, huh? Coffee addiction? No! It's called motivation and energy, which suits me quite well. I'm not the one who signs a contract and then complains about it in a way that might hurt my publisher on their own freakin' message board. What did you think would happen?

PA is a new company that is growing really fast. Burning bridges with them was stupid because the door is closing and it may have been as far as your talent could take you. WHOOPS! I don't have to hand anyone my book. People who have read my first book seek out the second one. That's how it's done.

Giving away a guitar at a book signing made it a lot of fun. That incentive sold a lot of books and provided a very cool gift for Christmas they couldn't pick or afford. Working out details like that with local vendors is how it's done. Multi-author signings provide variety to the public. That's just bringing numbers. You have a problem with any of that logic? Oh, I see. Let's just sit around and go: "Hi, it's great big me! Come here to my table and buy my book and I'll sign it for you." Get real.

All I can se here is a lot of people who said: "Oh, i've got the keys to the kingdom, but THIS is in my way! When I run out of THIS I have plenty of THAT to thwart my efforts as well! It's all somebody else's fault! It can't be me! I wrote the dammed thing!" Puuuulease. I'm so tired of hearing two year-old arguements.

Having nothing means nothing. Paying for nothing is stupid. I bought a ninety-nine dollar guitar for slightly above cost and the book sales went far above that cost. It wasn't for me. If I wanted a profit I would have charged the authors for their part in the raffle. If you don't get the point, I can't explain it to you.

Here's the dollars and sense: For the next seven years I have two books that will continue to sell and spread my name. In the meantime I have a lot of other books to release, which will spread the word as well. I'm in it for the long haul. I don't expect a million bucks for my ONE attempt like a freakin' lottery ticket. Traditional and pay publishers can't offer that beyond the next addition.

The idea that this board has even heard of me means I'm doing something right. You follow?
 

astonwest

Re: Jeepers!

Sigh......

"No publisher prospects beyond paying to have it done."

There are plenty of folks around here who've never paid to have it done...and in fact have gotten multiple-thousands of dollars in advances. Not everyone, of course, but a blanket statement like that defies all logic.

"Total denial of the fact that traditional publishers watch the movers and shakers at PA."

Really? I'm curious how many of the folks in the illustrious new imprint at PA have been approached by "traditional publishers." We won't dwell on the fact that you're separating "traditional publishers" from PA, which would tend to imply they aren't a "traditional publisher", as they always claim. (Then of course, there's the fact one of their biggest movers and shakers went to another POD for her most recent book. Guess she won't be giving any big talks on how to sell books at the upcoming convention...)

"Would I go with another publisher?"

You never did really answer this question...I'm curious...if another publisher asked and PA didn't match the deal, would you jump ship? An honest question...

"Look, if you want to dash your dreams, that's your business."

Actually, PA dashed my dreams...by making me try to believe my book was sellable under their terms. Whether it was sellable (or publishable) or not is a moot point anymore...

"I'm not the one who signs a contract and then complains about it in a way that might hurt my publisher on their own freakin' message board."

Actually, I think a majority of the complaints people bring up on the message board are items you don't read about in the contract. Pricing is one. Store stocking is another. There are many other issues that come up, but these are the two that were usually the biggest.

"Giving away a guitar at a book signing made it a lot of fun. That incentive sold a lot of books..."

Remind us again how many books (your titles) you sold during that event...

"Working out details like that with local vendors is how it's done."

I prefer working out details like how I'm going to get my books there on time. That, and how I'm going to get paid. And there's always things like how the event is going to publicized. They normally turn out a lot better that way...

"Multi-author signings provide variety to the public."

I have to agree to that (a single book tends to limit the exposure, because not everyone enjoys the same genre)...unfortunately, most multi-author signings set up through chain stores end up being little more than a "tuck 'em in a corner" event, with tons of authors stashed at a minimum number of tables. It's very tough for any author to make any impact in that sort of a setting (when you're trying hard not to smack each other with your elbows while signing books).

"All I can se here is a lot of people who said: "Oh, i've got the keys to the kingdom, but THIS is in my way! When I run out of THIS I have plenty of THAT to thwart my efforts as well! It's all somebody else's fault! It can't be me! I wrote the dammed thing!" Puuuulease. I'm so tired of hearing two year-old arguements."

I'm still trying to figure out what all this meant...can anyone interpret it for me?

Although the bit about "It's all somebody else's fault! It can't be me! I wrote the dammed thing!" sounds like it was pulled directly off the PA boards, when anyone ends up with a negative review, or gets the door slammed in their face at a newspaper or a bookstore...

"The idea that this board has even heard of me means I'm doing something right. You follow?"

Just because one has been heard of doesn't mean what they do is 'something right'.

Oh well...as is always the case, you have your opinion...I have mine...everyone around here has their own...and no one is going to change their mind despite what anyone says...

Best to keep writing and let the chips fall where they may...

Big Daddy West
:hat
 

GravityFades

Re: Jeepers!

To borrow a quote from Richard M. Nixon (strange thought!):"let me say this about that." I have one, count 'em, one novel with PA, and that's the last one they'll get. My second one was done with a large traditional CBA house, and will be in stores nationwide May 1.
How is this being accomplished? the young lad in the back asks. Simple, my boy: the publisher has my book listed in a catalog. Said catalog is then placed in the hands of a highly-trained sales force. It is THEY who make the rounds to the book buyers, taking orders for it (please God).
Yeah, I have to talk it up, be available for interviews and signings and such, but those will be booked by a very nice lady at the publisher called a publicist. Of course, common sense and five decades on the planet tells me that I won't get the treatment that, say, King or Grisham enjoys. That'll come with time (again, please God). But I won't have to collar some poor overworked wretch of a Borders manager and plead with him to stock five copies of my overpriced opus.

In sum, let me finish with another quote (Mae West, if I'm not mistaken): "I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is better."

Thus endeth the lesson.

John
 

FM St George

Re: Jeepers!

well put, both of you...

wonder if we'll ever see any other PA authors venture out beyond the masturbatory world of their own boards... this one and others where, perhaps, it's not all glitter and gold paint. Where Real Authors who have actually dealt with reviewers outside of PA shills and editors who don't just rubberstamp whatever's on the paper and you actually EARN money for your writing instead of having to harass bookstore owners and earn a paltry buck a buck because you can't afford to give a decent discount.

and, again - for all their efforts there's only one PA author I can think of who's sold 500 books... that fact alone should have the majority of them hanging their heads in shame.

sad fact is that most of us who've been "banned" actually had good reasons and questions - now our "publisher" refuses to answer our emails and ignores us - hardly good business behavior and most certainly not a way to win us back.

but then, they don't care - there's always another sucker down the block waiting for that magic email from PA offering to "publish" them...
 

Ed Williams 3

Well, what did we expect?

"No publisher prospects beyond paying to have it done."

I've never paid one dime to publish either of my first two books. The third one is under option as we speak. I get good royalty checks, and expense paid trips to major book conferences.

"No chance of distribution in the big stores as offered by PA's partnership."

Name some PA titles that have stocked nationwide in any of the well known national chain bookstores.

"If I didn't give PA the first crack or chance to match, what would the new publisher think of me?"

That you had regained your publishing sanity.

"If you worked on the greatest novel of all time and it didn't get the recognition you expected, you post here."

Big talk when you consider the top selling PA title has sold maybe 500 copies.

"We're happy folks, you're not. Sad day in you-land, huh?"

If you're happy, why the diatribe? And if your publisher is so wonderful, why do they not accord their own authors the privilege you have here, that of being able to post whatever you want to? What's their fear?

"People who have read my first book seek out the second one. That's how it's done."

And where, other than the internet, might they find one?

"Multi-author signings provide variety to the public."

Good point, HB. Might help to have some copies available for them to buy, too. What did you have at this big signing, one copy of your own book to hawk? That signing is an absolute joke, if I was you I'd not use that as a defense of your publisher.

"Traditional and pay publishers can't offer that beyond the next addition."

How would you possibly know what a traditional publisher would offer their authors?

"The idea that this board has even heard of me means I'm doing something right. You follow?"

HB, you're held up as one of the main examples of a PA zealot, and you're proud of that. This is America, and you have that right, but the reason people know you is not because you're doing something right. You're touting a publisher that's an industry joke, and your top selling author sells maybe 500 copies. Hell, my publisher gave away close to a hundred of my latest at just one trade show this past fall. How many trade shows has PA sent you to?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Jeepers!

Total denial of the fact that traditional publishers watch the movers and shakers at PA.

You're right; I totally deny that's a fact.

Here's something for you to think about over there in Cloud Cuckoo Land:

If the traditional publishers thought that the PublishAmerica plan was worth a damn, they'd be doing it too, and better than PA is doing it.

If traditionally-published authors thought PA was worth a damn they'd be at PA elbowing you out of the way.

Mostly, though, traditional publishers don't know who PublishAmerica is. Those who do don't care.

PublishAmerica is a nightmare for bookstore managers. It doesn't trouble the sleep of traditional publishers. Traditional publishers: You know, the guys who are in the business of selling books to people the author has never looked in the eye.

So, again, no dodging: How's business? How much more have you spent on your books and promoting them than you've brought in from total book sales?

How many books, grand total, have you actually sold, given away, or otherwise distributed?

Now tell me, what's your experience with traditional publishers? How many works have you submitted to them? What kind of responses did you get?
 

HConn

Re: Jeepers!

I'm sure pro writers will be happy to jump to PA for the chance to "be creative."

After 4 months of intensive work and 18
booksignings after receiving my author's copy
of my novel, I wanted to share these bullet
points...
� You CAN get into major bookstores. I asked
for and got a "BINC" # from Borders and have
had 7 successful signings with them. Also
with WaldenBooks, B&N and B. Dalton.
� You MUST creatively present yourself. I
walked in with a half bushel of apples (see
title: ROTTEN AT THE CORE), silkscreeened
t-shirts for their staff to wear during the
signing, a 3' x 10' banner, business cards,
bookmarks, 11" x 17" posters, a sign-in sheet
promoting my second book (I have hundreds
of contacts now to market from!), and printouts
from my website showing the store's name,
website, etc. Also, a contract guaranteeing
that I will buy back all unsold books that they
order or offering to bring my own, and finally, a
promotion plan showing where I would drop
direct mail postcards and/or have kids deliver
door hangers, and where I would submit my
press releases.

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/883.htm
 

finerthingsinlife

Re: Jeepers!

I must admit to have a sneaky sympathy--regardless of the publishing choice (poor--given), his/her approach DOES show both passion and creativity. Rag on the publisher with abandon, but when a poor b*gger goes to those lengths , you do have to take you hat off to them. I'm in marketing and I have done some whacky promos sometimes but that individual has big kahunas to do that. Yes, making the most of a poor decision, but got to give them a 'nice try' award mention.

From my little perspective, let's stick to shooting PA and not pick out the individuals that are trying to make the most of a dumb publishing decision.

Summary--poor publisher decision, nice try on at least trying to sell a book that will never see a bookshop otherwise.

Going back to lurking....
 
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