Writing novels with multiple perspectives

LJD · Oct 28, 2012

Kallithrix said:
But now I think I see what you're saying. You're not against multiple POV narrative per se, just multiple POV done badly.

I could say the same about almost any stylistic device. I am against writing in general when done badly.

I thought that was obvious from blacbird's following comment:

blacbird said:
I'm admittedly a skeptic of proliferating POVs, at least in manuscripts I've critiqued, for several reasons:

and honestly, my experience with published novels (note that I read mainly mainstream/contemporary, women's fiction, and romance) has led me to share his skepticism. But I thought it was clear that blacbird's points were not meant to apply to every single piece ever written with more than one POV, and were furthermore mainly for the usage of a large number of POVs, not merely 2-3.

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a book with more than 4 or 5 POVs in which all those POVs added something to the story, and yet some authors seem to think it a great idea to add POVs almost at random. I find this jarring. Not that most authors do this--in fact, the majority don't. But it is something worth thinking about. If I heard that a novel had a large number of POVs, it would be a turn-off for me because of my experiences.

AnneGlynn · Oct 28, 2012

LJD said:
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a book with more than 4 or 5 POVs in which all those POVs added something to the story, and yet some authors seem to think it a great idea to add POVs almost at random. I find this jarring. Not that most authors do this--in fact, the majority don't. But it is something worth thinking about. If I heard that a novel had a large number of POVs, it would be a turn-off for me because of my experiences.

Try The Stand. I love how Stephen King mixes multiple POVs and it made me a fan of books with multiple perspectives. I don't write them but I love to read them.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Oct 28, 2012

LJD said:
and honestly, my experience with published novels (note that I read mainly mainstream/contemporary, women's fiction, and romance) has led me to share his skepticism. But I thought it was clear that blacbird's points were not meant to apply to every single piece ever written with more than one POV, and were furthermore mainly for the usage of a large number of POVs, not merely 2-3.

It seemed very much more like a blanket statement to the effect that 'I have never seen multiple POVs I thought were good, therefore multiple POVs are bad'

Red rag > Bull.

It all boils down to personal preference. If you don't like multiple POVs don't read stories that use them, but don't try and make up some magical mathematical formula to explain why employing multiple POV is bad.

ChaosTitan · Oct 29, 2012

flowerburgers said:
So whaddaya think? More generally, what do you find to be effective in multiple-perspective novels? If you've written one, how did you approach it?

I was going to do a whole explanation, but then I realized that blacbird's list below outlines the pitfalls of multi-POV novels very well, and it gives you a good set of guidelines to print and post over your computer.

blacbird said:
1. Often they are little more than an excuse for sloppy head-hopping, lack of POV focus when it is most desirable.

2. Even when multiple POVs (more than two or three) are applied in narrative, the POV characters have little to differentiate them, other than geography.

3. A nagging sense I have that the story would be more focused, more disciplined, more vivid, more engaging, if the POV choices were more limited. It seems, at times, that some writers consider every new idea that comes into their heads requires narrating that new idea from a new character's head.

4. Too much reliance on "being in the head" of characters in general.

5. A pure lack of understanding of POV and its importance in narrative.

When I write with multiple POV's, #2 is the one I keep in mind the most. If the additional character views don't add a new layer to the story, and if the voice isn't somehow differentiated from the voice of other characters, you may not be doing your job as the author.

As for novels that follow many POV's and large families, pick up some books by John Jakes. Particularly the North and South trilogy. He weaves two main families, dozens of characters, and US history over the course of about twenty-five years or so.

It can be done, and it can be done well. But it can't be done well by everyone.

Wilde_at_heart · Oct 29, 2012

flowerburgers said:
Well, it isn't done yet -- I'm only guessing at 60k, since I've never written anything longer, but so far the material is "stretching out" pretty well. It could definitely wind up being more.

It's a third person omniscient narrator, so I think everyone is a POV character at some point, but the four main narrative arcs get the most attention. The intertwining stories are also very much linked, the characters from different "arcs" are constantly interacting, and the multiple perspectives is basically just a tool to show all these things happening simultaneously as the families get ready for the postman's funeral. Hopefully, that element of... narrative unity, I guess? will help bring everything together.

I worked on it a lot today and I'm feeling more confident about how everything is unfolding, but this was all useful advice nonetheless! Thanks guys. I will keep this in mind as I proceed.

Sounds like this is what you are attempting? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphony_(literature)

This might be an interesting article for you, and one I think works well with 'ensemble' books or films where there isn't just one protagonist and antagonist:

http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict

For countless centuries, Chinese and Japanese writers have used a plot structure that does not have conflict “built in”, so to speak. Rather, it relies on exposition and contrast to generate interest. This structure is known as kishōtenketsu.

Kishōtenketsu contains four acts: introduction, development, twist and reconciliation. The basics of the story—characters, setting, etc.—are established in the first act and developed in the second. No major changes occur until the third act, in which a new, often surprising element is introduced. The third act is the core of the plot, and it may be thought of as a kind of structural non sequitur. The fourth act draws a conclusion from the contrast between the first two “straight” acts and the disconnected third, thereby reconciling them into a coherent whole.

The postman being eaten by a jaguar would be your third act in this narrative structure.

Probably tricky to pull off unless you're a skilled writer, but it could be quite brave.

Wilde_at_heart · Oct 29, 2012

Kallithrix said:
I like multiple POV stories, because I like seeing the same events from different perspectives, and getting to explore different aspects of a character from someone else's viewpoint. I also want to be able to show events happening in the MC's absence. It helps to create dramatic irony. I don't see how writing multiple POV is any harder than single POV - enough people manage to bollocks that up as well, so I'd say neither is easy. Someone who can write can handle both narrative styles. Someone who can't probably shouldn't attempt either.

I think the risk is when authors forget or aren't absolutely sure who the main character really is, or whose story is being told.

I have a clear MC in my WIP (second draft just finished), but it would be impossible to tell the story I want to with her in every single scene and twice I 'pull back' so the reader can see her from more of a distance.

However I do try to limit that with the remaining characters and don't develop them as fully or spend much time in their heads apart from a little added colour mainly because they aren't that central and it's not their story being told.

If I'm not mistaken that might be the point blacbird was trying to make...

flowerburgers · Oct 29, 2012

wilde_at_heart -- Yes, that's exactly what it is! (Polyphony, not kishōtenketsu) Thanks for the link, I'll check that out.

I don't think the kishōtenketsu structure will work for this story, but it does sound very interesting. I might like to try it with something else.

CrastersBabies · Oct 29, 2012

I think the multiple-POV works well in epic fantasy (for example) because there's a higher word count, and, many epic fantasy books are part of a series. Lots of TIME to let a story unfold, to draw a reader in.

I personally love multiple POVs. Fast reading. Page-turners. I do like some characters more, but I get a lot out of other characters too.

Inquisitive_Lass · Nov 2, 2012

Within the last two years I wrote two first draft for Urban Fantasy of Multiple POV's, in both their are multiple POV's. The One I wrote first I've been reading back and realizing just how much plot holes there are and that many of the different POVs are not needed. I enjoy using the different Points of views that move the novel along as I am an Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings fan which I believe when the Point of view was switched it was done so nicely. Too many different views without much point could just confuse the reader, but when done nicely I enjoy the book and seeing the main characters in different ways. One reason I enjoy writing within the multiple POV is because I always believe that when I write its like a movie in my head giving me the story, the story isn't always seen in one specific characters head therefore I go with the different points.

Tigerlilly79 · Nov 2, 2012

I'm writing a YA Fantasy

in 1st person from the point of view of five characters and it's working quite well for me.

blacbird · Nov 2, 2012

Kallithrix said:
It seemed very much more like a blanket statement to the effect that 'I have never seen multiple POVs I thought were good, therefore multiple POVs are bad'

Wasn't even close to that, and I think a careful reread of my post will make it clear. What I said, and stand by, involves three things: First, handling many POVs well is more difficult than handling one or two POVs well. Second, many inexperienced writers don't handle any POV really well, so using multiple ones only multiplies the difficulty. Third, many inexperienced writers dance about with multiple POVs by default, when having the writing discipline to identify what would be a simpler and better POV structure is what's really needed.

I've seen plenty of examples of each of these situations in manuscripts I've critiqued.

caw

blacbird · Nov 2, 2012

A bit of a digression, but related to the point of this thread: Would anyone be interested in a bit of a writing challenge involving a point-of-view restriction? It occurs to me that it could be an interesting exercise. My idea would be a disciplined non-autobiographical first-person story, or portion of novel, posted in SYW for comment. I could see this being a useful exercise in developing POV discipline, and a bit of fun besides. Any interest?

caw

Sonsofthepharaohs · Nov 3, 2012

blacbird said:
My idea would be a disciplined non-autobiographical first-person story, or portion of novel, posted in SYW for comment. I could see this being a useful exercise in developing POV discipline, and a bit of fun besides. Any interest?

caw

Yes, if you changed the exercise to third person limited multiple POV - instead of trying to train people out of it, help them to do it better

I don't like to read 1st person, so why would I want to write it? :tongue

Writing novels with multiple perspectives

LJD

AnneGlynn

If you don't try, you can't fail

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

ChaosTitan

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Wilde_at_heart

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flowerburgers

New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin

CrastersBabies

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Inquisitive_Lass

Tigerlilly79

Maybe I should see someone . . .

blacbird

blacbird

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Writing novels with multiple perspectives

If you don't try, you can't fail

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Around

&#965;&#960;&#949;&#943;&#954;&#969;phobe

&#965;&#960;&#949;&#943;&#954;&#969;phobe

New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin

Burninator!

Maybe I should see someone . . .

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

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