The Tobermory Cat-Troll

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Alexandra Little

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The controversy section on the Wiki is gone now, though you can read about it on the talk page. Hopefully is stays gone.
 

juniper

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Thanks for bring Debi's work to my attention - I'll make sure to pick up a copy of the book from the local independent bookstore.

The other guy - I wish him well, but I think he's wrong here.
 
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TNK

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Maybe the world needs *more* books about Tobermory cats. Whole anthologies of them by a dozen authors in different genres with their own ideas of how the cat could star. Especially those with their own Facebook pages and Twitter accounts.

I don't have a twitter account, and my Facebook page is covered with dust, but I'd so write a story about a cat. :)
 

Polenth

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The controversy section on the Wiki is gone now, though you can read about it on the talk page. Hopefully is stays gone.

It probably won't stay gone, because that's not how Wikipedia works. The aim of articles about people isn't to be nice. It's to report on notable things about that person. As this has been in major newspapers, and will probably be in more as this carries on, it is notable.

However, Wikipedia has rules about impartiality and not placing undue weight on things. The section needs to be written by someone who isn't involved, and covered in a level of detail that goes with its importance compared to the rest of the page.

It's a lot easier to work with Wikipedia's rules rather than against them. The agent could have sorted it by editing the text to be impartial and repositioning it in the article, citing it as not being balanced. But all constantly deleting it will do is lead to a banning.
 

Terie

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It probably won't stay gone, because that's not how Wikipedia works. The aim of articles about people isn't to be nice. It's to report on notable things about that person. As this has been in major newspapers, and will probably be in more as this carries on, it is notable.

However, Wikipedia has rules about impartiality and not placing undue weight on things. The section needs to be written by someone who isn't involved, and covered in a level of detail that goes with its importance compared to the rest of the page.

It's a lot easier to work with Wikipedia's rules rather than against them. The agent could have sorted it by editing the text to be impartial and repositioning it in the article, citing it as not being balanced. But all constantly deleting it will do is lead to a banning.

I agree with you about following Widipedia's rules.

But I think it's worth saying that there is no actual controversy here. This is an imagined slight taken to a ridiculous level.
 

Stacia Kane

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Wasn't the cat--and its brethren--already known as the Tobermory Cat before that guy set up his Facebook page? I got the impression everyone in Tobermory thought of it that way.

As others have said, this is akin to saying, "I wrote a biography of Lincoln, so I own that concept, and no one else can ever write one."
 

LindaJeanne

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I'm guessing he thinks he has the exclusive copyright since he was the first to have a Facebook page.

Yup, I think that's it. At least, I think he believes he has exclusive moral rights to the cat; I don't think he believes he has legally protected copyright.

Hence my comment about Facebook not being the be-all and end-all of the universe.

He just assumes, that since he put the page up on Facebook, that any out-of-towner who heard about the cat MUST have heard about him through that Facebook page. Which is ridiculous, but typical.
 

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This "Artist" is being completely idiotic. If the Tobermory Cat "belongs" to anyone, it would be to Hector Munro (1870 to 1916) who wrote under the name Saki, and published the lovely story "Tobermory" about a ginger tom who talks.

Saki's charming story was published as part of The Chronicles of Clovis in 1911, and written in 1908. That, and lovely whiskey put Tobermory and its ginger toms in the public eye.

But there have been others who noted the Tobermory cats. There's a 2008 Youtube video called Tobermory inspired by Saki's talking cat. It in turn inspired a Spanish animated film artist to create a cat named Tobermory in an 88 minutes animated fantasy film released in 2007. The characters include the Tobermory cat and were drawn by Pablo Navarro, who has a number of scene by scenes pencil sketches behind the film that depict Tobermory the cat from 2009.

Going back farther, single malt fans may remember a limited release malt from Tobermory with a ginger cat on the label. Early still, Gaelic poems about cats—including one in the earliest known Scottish ms.—feature cats, and are especially fond of Ginger toms.

So yeah, claiming the cat as "his" is stupid, greedy, self-aggrandizing and more than somewhat daft.

Aside from everything else, you can't "copyright" an idea, especially not one so that's been previously used for over a hundred years.

So this Facebook obsessive dude looks idiotic and is making a total ass of himself with assertions of "originality."

It looks idiotic. And slightly crazed.

Me? I'm going to buy Debi Gliori's charming book The Tobermory Cat.
 
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Deleted member 42

Yup, I think that's it. At least, I think he believes he has exclusive moral rights to the cat; I don't think he believes he has legally protected copyright.

Angus Stewart has, I assume, copyright to his book, and to any photographs he personally created or has licensed and has permissions to use.

Assuming no one asserts ownership of said cat.

You can't copyright a title, a concept or an idea.

Especially one that can easily be proven to be derivative. Like his. Not only is the cat a living cat, we have Saki (and others) to point to as source material.

At this point, the ginger cats of Tobermory are famous because of Saki.

Debi Gliori on the other hand has an original story. It is not derivative, nor does it share striking similarities with similar stories about similar cats. The Facebook page is simply an instantiation of a meme, like the Pancake Bunny or any number of Macro/LOL Cats, or cat memes in general.

Debi Gliori created an original story, and hand-created, personally, originally art. Hers isn't a meme collection.

Debi Gliori has written a book The Tobermory Cat. With a story, and characters, and actual art that is uniquely hers.
 
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Bogna

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Ugh, these people are frustrating. I just saw some of the comments on Amazon and I wanted to slam my head on my desk. Educating yourself on copy right laws are not that difficult.
 

MacAllister

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So much for my trademarked allegorical Ceiling Cat vs. Basement Cat epic poem.
Ceiling_Cat_Mac_Wallpaper_by_lechugabola.jpeg


If only I could convince all those other people using Ceiling Cat that they can't use it anymore, cuz it's ALL MINE NOW. :(
 

Terie

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Ugh, these people are frustrating. I just saw some of the comments on Amazon and I wanted to slam my head on my desk. Educating yourself on copy right laws are not that difficult.

We can help by marking the comments 'helpful' and 'unhelpful' as appropriate, and reporting any that threaten internet bullying for abuse.
 

ghostlygalleon

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But I think it's worth saying that there is no actual controversy here. This is an imagined slight taken to a ridiculous level.

Yes, indeed. There is no controversy. Anyone who knows anything about copyright and creativity knows that you can't copyright an idea, or even a title, least of all a cat. (I can't believe I just said that!)

Although there is no controversy, there is ignorance, and that's what we can work to rectify. This ignorance is not a matter of opinion but of fact, law and life.

We do not own the things we write about. Even if the complainant technically owned the cat, anyone would still be allowed to write about it. We may write about (or paint) any topic or object or person we wish to. It is very often the case that two writers come up with the same idea and even the same names for characters - it happened when author Tim Bowler and I discovered after publication in consecutive months that we had both written a YA novel about a 14-year-old boy called Luke with synesthesia. The stories were, however, and inevitably, completely different, just as Debi Gliori's creative story is different from the book of photos of a cat with the same "name". And let's point out that that name is generic, a name that has stuck to the cats of Tobermory, a name that merely describes where the cat lives and is seen. It doesn't require enormous powers of creativity to think of calling a stray cat who lives in Tobermory the Tobermory Cat!

We own our words and our pictures, not our ideas. Anyone can have an idea - it's turning it into a piece of art that involves talent, skill and hard work.

We need to stand up and explain this to those who need to know, otherwise foolishness like this attack on Debi will keep on happening. This is why I've been tweeting and commenting in the last few days - which is how Old Hack came across the story, I think. *waves at Old Hack*
 

LindaJeanne

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I see two discussions going on (one in "The Tobermory Cat Forum", and one in "The Debi Gliori Forum"). Are there others?
 

muravyets

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Yes, I'm having a certain amount of trouble with that. Tobermory might be the BEST cat story, but it's also somewhat less than cuddly (and indeed a big ginger Tom is T's nemesis, IIRC.)
Personally, I think the lesson in the Saki story is the more important one for children to learn, cuddliness be damned. ;)

Also, yes, the ginger tom is the character who puts an end to the danger of Tobermory, so I'm not really sure how the name got attached to the ginger. Unless it's like in the Chronicles of Riddick, and "you keep what you kill," in which case maybe there's a whole 'nother avenue for specious, idiotic copyright whining for some bored troll out in Facebook-land.
 

Mr Flibble

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Is using another author's IDEAS also plagiarism? :(

I think you'd have to be really specific. So for instance, you wanted to write a space opera about this boy who finds out he has special powers - let's call it The Force - and he's called Luke, right? And Luke has to master the bad side, feel the good side or things will get very bad indeed, but they're going to get bad anyway because Chief Bad Side Dude (Dath Ladar)is actually his dad! *gasp!* And then it turns out that chick he fancies is actually his sister....

If you're just writing about a broad idea - boy with special powers must learn how to use them, in space! - you're probably okay, though it might seem a bit derivative. Using all the other stuff as well? Not so much.

In this case, all the FB guy has is a facebook page about a stray cat. The stray cat and the town are pretty much the only two common elements, not very specific at all. Book has extra elements real life does not (IIRC the new book, the cat plays the violin. Pretty sure FB cat does not) so it's pretty silly to say it's plagiarism, because the author has, clearly, used their own ideas as well as inventing a story to go with said cat (FB cat does not have a plot) - not to mention their original artwork etc. They took some inspiration (added bonus, inspiration wasn;t from FB but another source)and made it their own. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Deleted member 42

Plagiarism is not at all the same as copyright violation.

Plagiarism means claiming someone else's work as yours.

We have no evidence of either plagiarism or copyright violation at all.

First of all, the concept or idea of "the Tobermory cat" is not unique or original.

It wasn't when Saki used it, and it isn't now.

The cats are a real thing. They exist. They are therefore not an idea or a concept.

Moreover, Ms. Gliori has created an original story. It is a story. It is a made-up thing, a creation. Her illustrations are also individual unique creations.

Bluntly put, the implications of theft, copyright violation or plagiarism are at best daft and ignorant. The deliberate stalking and trolling is bizarre and suggests someone has some serious boundary issues and is a little vague on the legalities of EU law regarding things like intimidation, stalking etc.
 

James D. Macdonald

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I

Is using another author's IDEAS also plagiarism?

Ideas ... are a dime a dozen and overpriced at that. It's people who have few ideas who have this ... idea ... that ideas by themselves are valuable.

I've had at least eighteen ideas in the past quarter hour. I'll give them to you for free, and, if I wind up using one myself the resulting works will be so different that there's no chance that any copyright violation, far less plagiarism, could exist.

So, no, using an idea is not and cannot be plagiarism.
 
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