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Tobermory Cat

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Yes, that's my PM - I think - it sounds like me. From memory, I sent it a few days ago, not longer after you came here - I just didn't like to see a bad situation get worse than it had to.

We don't usually take PMs public here, TC, but I'm happy to just assume you didn't know that. I'm not sure what your point is in quoting it, though. It's a nice PM. I think everyone here would assume it would be a pretty nice PM. And I do stand by it.

.....well, yep, wrong window.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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[


So, I guess I have been rehearsing arguments and learning quite a lot. I feel there is some substance to my claim. Had theirs been a book by Jimmy Saville would there be such a defence? Would all argument be turned the other way? Excuse the mess but in this situation I don't see myself being excused so its one way trip. Do tell me if I am wrong.I have provided exits - the 2.5% gross for the hall. Surprised that wasn't agreed months ago. I thought it was a nice idea, we could all have smiled and hug and ....sorry, my perverted mind. [SIZE=+0]I[/SIZE]ts just a personality clash. I don't respond well to bullying but maybe its normal in your business. Some smart cookies about, quite interesting to watch. But back to work. Any suggested exit strategies which don't involve me being totally wiped out? Thanks for the nice comments. Regards, Angus

Unclear what you mean. In what way are you at risk of being wiped out?

If you are seeking a graceful exit that will take a great deal of work. You leveled and continue to level unjust accusations at various people in public. At minimum you would have to stop doing that.

Beyond that each of the people harmed by this harassment will likely have their own needs. It is likely you will need to approach each of them in turn.

Understand please that we aren't the agents for anyone. We are observers, and many of us are affronted by the actions you precipitated. But we're not the people who were hurt. If you wish to end this you will, inevitably, have to make your peace with them.
 

Deleted member 42

Any suggested exit strategies which don't involve me being totally wiped out? Thanks for the nice comments. Regards, Angus

Stop trying to create a pity party. Stop writing, posting about or discussing Ms. Gliori or her book.

Sell your book. Sell your paintings. You'd likely do a brisk business in selling a Tobermory Cat Calendar; I'd look at online companies like Cafe Press or Zazzle rather than attempting to ship them yourself, but I would also work with a local Mull printer to create one to sell at your gallery.

In the calendar, include the usual holidays (Jewish, secular and Christian) but make sure to include Mull and Tobermory events as well.

I'd also print some greeting cards of your paintings. On the back of the greeting card include your Web site. There too I'd look at the possibility of a local printer as well as using an online vendor; the issues of shipping, quality control, and taxes can be tricky.
 

Billtrumpet25

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Interesting that TC has returned right after NakedTruth had been banned.

Coincidence, much? :tongue
 

buz

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I feel there is some substance to my claim.

Can you explain why? Clearly, in a straightforward manner? Please?

Had theirs been a book by Jimmy Saville would there be such a defence? Would all argument be turned the other way?

What? I don't see how that has to do with anything at all. You seem to think this is a popularity contest between Gliori and yourself, I guess? It isn't. It's about the fact that you've called someone a thief who did nothing wrong.

Excuse the mess but in this situation I don't see myself being excused so its one way trip.

Huh? You can excuse yourself. Say "I apologize" and drop it and get on with your life. I don't see the problem.

I don't respond well to bullying but maybe its normal in your business.

No one responds well to bullying. Which is why you shouldn't do it. I don't think you saw what you did as "bullying" --and maybe your followers did most of it, although your statements to the effect of things being stolen from you and calling Gliori a thief are fairly plain. But it's really, really not nice.

Any suggested exit strategies which don't involve me being totally wiped out?

Drop it, apologize, and continue on with your life exactly as you would have done if none of this had ever happened. Sell your art, your photos, your postcards. Continue with your Tobermory Cat stuff; there's no reason why you can't. I don't understand how that would wipe you out. In fact, I don't understand how Gliori's book hurts your business at all. I can only imagine it would help. How does the book hurt you? How would you be wiped out? What do you think has been taken from you?
 
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Torgo

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So, I guess I have been rehearsing arguments and learning quite a lot. I feel there is some substance to my claim.

I don't feel there is any legal or moral substance to your claim and I don't think I am alone in that.

Had theirs been a book by Jimmy Saville would there be such a defence?

I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

Do tell me if I am wrong.

You're wrong, and you don't have a claim. Nothing prevents you from making money out of your own considerable talent. If you want to publish a competing book, go ahead, with everyone's good wishes.

I have provided exits - the 2.5% gross for the hall. Surprised that wasn't agreed months ago. I thought it was a nice idea, we could all have smiled and hug and ....sorry, my perverted mind.

What you're asking for is way out of proportion. You're asking for maybe a third of Debi's cut (and I'm just going by prevailing royalty rates here - no direct knowledge) for doing no work. I don't know if that's the reason it was turned down, or whether there's more to it, but understand: there's barely any money in picture book publishing, and it usually flows towards the people who do the work, so that they can keep body and soul together.

[SIZE=+0]I[/SIZE]ts just a personality clash. I don't respond well to bullying but maybe its normal in your business. Some smart cookies about, quite interesting to watch. But back to work.

This whole thing came about because you or people you know went around calling Debi Gliori a thief when clearly you had no legal rights in anything at issue. That's inarguable on the facts as I understand them. If you want to make a pitch for the moral high ground, make your case. You keep evading reasonable questions.

Any suggested exit strategies which don't involve me being totally wiped out? Thanks for the nice comments. Regards, Angus [/FONT]

Stop any harassment of Debi or her publisher, and acknowledge that she isn't a thief or any other kind of felon. Then go and put your talent - again, your considerable talent - to work, and make a product that people can sell, and compete in the marketplace of ideas rather than the court of public opinion.

I like Debi's work, and I like your work, and everyone's work can coexist quite happily without slanging matches on the internet. Give it a try.
 

yayeahyeah

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Stop trying to create a pity party. Stop writing, posting about or discussing Ms. Gliori or her book.

Sell your book. Sell your paintings. You'd likely do a brisk business in selling a Tobermory Cat Calendar; I'd look at online companies like Cafe Press or Zazzle rather than attempting to ship them yourself, but I would also work with a local Mull printer to create one to sell at your gallery.

In the calendar, include the usual holidays (Jewish, secular and Christian) but make sure to include Mull and Tobermory events as well.

I'd also print some greeting cards of your paintings. On the back of the greeting card include your Web site. There too I'd look at the possibility of a local printer as well as using an online vendor; the issues of shipping, quality control, and taxes can be tricky.

Angus, I would suggest you REALLY need to apologise to Debi on your Facebook page to make sure people realise that she didn't do anything wrong. After that, take the excellent advice above.
 

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Interesting that TC has returned right NakedTruth had been banned.

Coincidence, much? :tongue

Well, I certainly wasn't minded to participate in a conversation with that particular character. That level of nastiness makes me crabby, and no one needs to see me when I'm crabby.

Mac and Lisa check new users before they approve them. Had NT been TC, I'm certain that they'd have said something.

Frankly, NT strikes me as the classic troll: the internet equivalent of that kid who stirs ants' nests just to watch them run about. And it's likely that he (going with the odds on gender) doesn't care about any of the individuals, but just wants his dose of the drama.

TC, by contrast, is genuinely emotionally involved in the situation. I may think the degree and nature of that involvement is unjustified, and that his way of dealing with it is unfortunate, but I acknowledge its reality.
 

Stacia Kane

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(Removing bizarre formatting)

On reflection, sometimes when you refuse to talk on the phone to a reporter I realise that you are actually talking to the reporter. My reply was saying go and do the digging. A Stone facebook texted saying she was doing the story, I did not contact her. I had read Debi's blog which nearly had me in tears so I thought this is going to be really bad.( yep, my finding her blog does suggest stalking doesn't it, think it was Google alert for "Tobermory Cat" ) This is my side of the communication, three blocks of text sent from me.

Yes, I'd misremembered the bit in the Guardian column where it said you hadn't commented, and instead copied and quoted comments you'd posted elsewhere. Sorry about that. It was a genuine mistake.

If reading Debi's blog nearly had you in tears, imagine how she must have felt being the target of your lengthy campaign against her, full of false accusations and attempts to damage her livelihood? Sorry, I have little sympathy for a man who gets upset when he reaps what he sowed.

I see now that your bizarre formatting had to do with you quoting yourself, which I did not realize because the bizarreness of the formatting and your quirky linguistics made it difficult for me to parse your text in that format. I am amending my post, but still responding to your comments, since you apparently posted them here for that purpose:


#Shit sticks and I am being cast as some sort of bully and it is very dangerous stuff. They construct a stalker - its a handy tag and serious tag.

Do you deny sending the tweets we have seen, or making the Facebook posts which are still on your page? You refused to answer Jim's questions asking you that before. If your Twitter feed and Facebook pages were hacked by people posting all those inflammatory comments, then my goodness, I do feel bad for you being painted as a bully. Unfortunately, since there is no evidence they weren't, and you have not denied any of the proof presented, we must believe they did indeed come from you. Which means that you are in fact behaving like a bully, and if you don't like being called on your behavior you should change your behavior.


Its looking like jail at the moment so whats the point.

No. It is not "looking like jail." For one thing, people do not generally go to jail for such things. For another, I doubt Ms. Gliori and her publisher would wish you to go to jail, since they are good and decent people.

However, if you feel so strongly that there is ample evidence of the wrongness of your behavior that you could be jailed for it, a good way to avoid such a result would be to STOP BEHAVING SO BADLY. People who go to jail do so because they have broken laws. If you believe you are headed for jail, that suggests that you now see your behavior was indeed wrong. It will be very simple to apologize and stop.


Never mind. Did you phone Browns shop - they may be away now. No matter, I'm stuffed so no point talking. Regards Angus#



There is a point in talking, if what you have to say is, "I now realize how incorrect my interpretation of the law is and how very appalling my behavior has been. I want to apologize to Ms. Gliori for my attempts to defame her and destroy her reputation and livelihood."



#Your simple question leaves me shaking. I have talked to the press before and ended up being threatened with money no object legal threats.


I suggest that if you are getting this upset, you should step away from this whole situation. Understand that you have no case, go back to posting pictures on Facebook and making beautiful art, and leave the rest of it alone. You can do it. I promise that within a few weeks this will all seem like a bad dream.


The issue of creative rights is an important one for many artists, the cat is a distraction. The issue is serious.

Yes, it is, which is why your complete misinterpretation, misapplication, and misunderstanding of the laws and the ethics of what's happened is so very upsetting to all of us. Nothing was stolen from you. No one has wronged you. Period.


#you could perhaps call Browns shop and ask the owners when and why their cat Ledaig became famous. Perhaps ask them if it was known as being famous before my facebook page and book. You could also ask what they think of my wee book and my struggle. I suggest this as news has a habit of running ahead of things - the story coming from the story told - mine is hard to find - it is buried in the facebook page. Angus#

None of that matters the slightest bit to this situation, despite your refusal to accept that fact. What does matter is copyright law as it pertains to writers, and you have no claim against Deb Gliori here.

You did not create the idea of a celebrity cat. You did not create the idea of a Tobermory cat. You did not create the idea of a cat with a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, or any sort of internet presence. You did not create the idea of posting cat pictures online. You did not create the idea of a cat "famous for being famous." All of that has existed for a long time--did you click the links I (and others) posted earlier, proving that?

Furthermore, you have repeatedly claimed that your cat is actually three cats; are you now claiming it's just one cat, and that cat is owned by a particular shop? So your page is detailing the antics of just one cat, then, and not a "cat character" you invented using "three cat actors?"


I beg you to seek the advice of a solicitor experienced in copyright/IP law, and to take the advice he or she gives you, and to drop all this nonsense. Please. If you have a case, they will help you. If you do not, they will tell you, and perhaps hearing it from them will enable you to put this behind you. But please seek legal advice. I am saying this in a genuine spirit of helpfulness and a desire to see this all end. It is obviously upsetting you. Please talk to a solicitor, and abide by what they say.
 
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Cyia

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Mac and Lisa check new users before they approve them. Had NT been TC, I'm certain that they'd have said something.

That sounds a bit sinister, unintentionally, I know.

We hand-approve new members, otherwise there would be upwards of 100 or more spammers a day.

Right now, we're easily getting that many new accounts from China alone, every day.

The hand-approval thing with new members is not like a Country Club membership committee or anything; it's a desire to avoid known trolls, sock puppets, and would-be spammers, and even then, we do miss an occasional spammer or sock.
 
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Pippi

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I had read Debi's blog which nearly had me in tears so I thought this is going to be really bad.
Were you upset because you realized you had caused her so much grief, or you were worried it would besmirch your name for her to tell her side of events?

You contacted the library, did you not, where she was going to do a reading. These are paying gigs for writers, they help put extra dosh on the table. Your actions could have effected her income.

Your followers seem to see this as a David v Goliath style battle. It's a lot closer to David v David. And so what if she is successful, she was totally within her rights.
 

Tobermory Cat

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Unclear what you mean. In what way are you at risk of being wiped out?

If you are seeking a graceful exit that will take a great deal of work. You leveled and continue to level unjust accusations at various people in public. At minimum you would have to stop doing that.

Beyond that each of the people harmed by this harassment will likely have their own needs. It is likely you will need to approach each of them in turn.

Understand please that we aren't the agents for anyone. We are observers, and many of us are affronted by the actions you precipitated. But we're not the people who were hurt. If you wish to end this you will, inevitably, have to make your peace with them.

I hear you. Sorry for the utter mess. Sadly I am not interested in cat pictures hence the fight.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Had theirs been a book by Jimmy Saville would there be such a defence?


Do you mean, 'Had Jimmy Saville written a book called, say, THE AUCKLAND PENGUIN, and had there been someone who had a Facebook page filled with photos of a penguin in Auckland who started running around calling Mr. Saville a thief and trying to destroy his career because of it, would we have tried to explain to the fellow with the Facebook page that he didn't have a case'?

Yes. Because those claims about Mr. Saville would not have had substance.

Would all argument be turned the other way?
No. The fellow with the Facebook page would still have been acting abominably.

Excuse the mess but in this situation I don't see myself being excused so its one way trip. Do tell me if I am wrong.
Many people have told you that you're wrong.

I have provided exits - the 2.5% gross for the hall.
The writer and publisher don't need exits. They've done nothing wrong. You're asking them to pay you off to get you to stop harassing them ... which looks remarkably bad.

All that needs to happen for an 'exit' is for you to stop whipping your followers to a froth. Better still if you'd never started, but that's not a choice.

I don't respond well to bullying...


Few people do, which is why, after enduring
nearly a year of it, Ms. Gliori finally went public.

... but maybe its normal in your business.


No, it isn't, which is what makes this episode so saddening.

Some smart cookies about, quite interesting to watch. But back to work. Any suggested exit strategies which don't involve me being totally wiped out? Thanks for the nice comments. Regards, Angus
Yes. Continue your Facebook page. Sell postcards of the cat(s). Sell mugs. Sell your artwork. You've gotten suggestions on how to break into the poster business. I don't see being 'wiped out' as being even a possibility, at least not from the actions of the writer and the publisher up to this point.

You might even get an affiliate account with one of the on-line booksellers, and put up a link to Ms. Gliori's book. That way you'll get a few pennies each time one of the books sells through your page. I'm sorry you didn't see the advantages of co-operative advertising when it was offered to you, but that's not a choice any more either.

Really, seriously, all that you need do to exit this sorry episode is forget that Ms. Gliori and this book exist. They are irrelevant to you and your life and your work.
 

evilrooster

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That sounds a bit sinister, unintentionally, I know.

We hand approve new members, otherwise there would be upwards of 100 or more spammers a day.

Right now, we're easily getting that many new accounts from China alone, every day.

The hand-approval thing with new members is not like a Country Club membership committee or anything; it's a desire to avoid known trolls, sock puppets, and would-be spammers, and even then, we do miss an occasional spammer or sock.

I do apologize that it sounded sinister -- I simply meant that you'd have the IP addresses sufficiently ready to hand that if they matched you'd bring it up in the thread.

I like to hope that the volume of new members in all their rich and charming variety (particularly but not exclusively in P&CE ;)) is evidence that the approval process is not meant to exclude any genuine person wanting to join.
 

Deleted member 42

I like to hope that the volume of new members in all their rich and charming variety (particularly but not exclusively in P&CE ;)) is evidence that the approval process is not meant to exclude any genuine person wanting to join.

It's really not. And when we refuse membership and someone real writes back, we make it good.

For the record, I have more false positives resulting in denying registration when the person was a real person, and Mac has more false negatives, approving a spammer.

Either way though, we make it good.
 

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That's very interesting. It just goes to show how this world gets smaller and smaller with each passing day. :)

But all the guys from China want to do is sell you knock-off designer handbags and consumer electronics, not talk about books and writing.
 

AnneMarble

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Oh lordy, I'm hardly a fan of Ms Gliori. I was blissfully unaware of her existence until someone linked me to her blogpost about this cat business.
I could have sworn I had an eBook copy of Pure Dead Magic, but I can't find it. Dang DRM. I probably bought it in PalmReader format or something. :tongue

Anyway, I haven't read it yet, and I didn't link the author's name with this thread until someone mentioned the series.
 

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I'm shocked that this thread is still going.
 
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