The Tobermory Cat-Troll

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James D. Macdonald

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Mr. Stewart, it seems you didn't like my last set of questions. Very well, here's another. Just two this time:

1) Are you a church-going man?

2) What do the words "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" mean to you?
 

Cyia

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Seriously, though, I could draw the cat--possibly with a bag over his head, to save grief--and call it "The Tobermory Cat" and start a Facebook page dedicated to the One True Real Actual Tobermory Cat, Accept No Substitutes, Everyone Else Is A Stinkin' Liar Wot Lies, AND then write a book proposal based on his adventures and that will still all be legal and kosher and above the board and I won't owe anybody any share of the fabulous wealth that will undoubtedly rain down on me from heaven for doing so.

I haz taken your shiny idea and made it mine! Also, I made it a limerick. Kitteh limericks ftw!

In Tobermory there lived a cat.
Who wore a bag instead of a hat.
He'll not tell you his name,
For he doesn't seek fame.
And he doesn't have time for a chat.

:D
 

Bookewyrme

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Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
Hijinks ensue.
I think the phrase "Hijinks ensue" is one of the most potentially amusing phrases I know. For some reason, I always picture something similar to the Benny Hill chase scenes with music.

I also think the next Absolute Write Anthology (assuming there is a next one) should be entirely cat-themed stories. I have no logical reason for this, but we do seem to have a lot of cat-lovers, and thanks to CQuinlan we also have a plethora of ideas. I feel sure hijinks would indeed ensue. :D

As to this "controversy" I can't help wondering how much the other residents of Tobermory have heard about it, and what sort of information they've been getting. This Artist-troll's actions could potentially HARM the tourism trade for the town, (where tourism is concerned, there very much is such a thing as bad publicity). I suspect he hasn't thought of that though.

Also, someone mentioned a report of the cat's death. Could Mr. Duncan perhaps clear that up for us? Was it the "ballsy" cat that caught his imagination who died, or another cat, or none at all?
I'm really just being nosy at this point, I guess. :tongue
 

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hijinxandsue-1.png
 
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muravyets

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Hi, I'm Duncan. I'm posting here because I'm the book seller mentioned earlier in this Tobermory Cat thread.
I have known Gus, who created the Tobermory Cat face book page for many years. He is a well known local artist. I consider the publisher, Hugh, a good friend. He is a wonderful supporter of books on the Islands of Scotland. I have met, spoken and emailed Debi. She is a very lovely and gentle person.
I do not visit the Tobermory Cat facebook page and never have. I made this decision as soon as I realised there was a conflict. I then could not be accused of stealing any work or ideas.
This may sound laughable but I am going to talk about the real cat. Gus has a facebook page created from three cats. One of these cats is a 'ballsy' cat. The cat came to attention in the town a few years ago. For example; we clean the beach with big machines. The moment the work was finished the cat came to lie in middle of the beach. A crowd gathered to point and laugh at this. I took photos of this almost a year before the facebook page. Anecdotes are shared around the town. They were digging the road. The cat got up in the seat beside the driver as the digging was going on. I was there. I saw this. This is very crowd gathering behavior. The cat would visit my shop. As we are a book shop we would shoo it away! A few days ago Debi’s Tobermory Cat books arrived. I got a phone call from a member of staff to come to the shop. After nine months away cat had returned and was sleeping in one of the empty book boxes. Again I took photos. Look I’m not daft enough to think there is any thing spooky about this but it is a fun cat. Since the very early days the publisher and I have been chatting about this behavior. Wherever the cat is it draws a cluster of tourists taking photos. This was meant to be a fun project to help draw people to Tobermory in very tough times. The whole plot of Debi’s story is getting tourists to return to Tobermory. We didn’t steal any of the celebrity idea. Our interest predates the facebook page. The cat is a local celebrity. The face book page, when it arrived, increased and broadened the appeal of the cat.
When the idea of the book came up it was I who suggested that Debi and Hugh meet Gus. I had seen Gus taking many photos of the cat. I met with Gus to set this up. He told me about his facebook page. I then suggested to Hugh and Debi that Gus could have a mention in the book to direct all readers to his site to see photos of the real cat, buy postcards and so on. He would be the point of contact for the real cat. To me the opportunities for Gus appeared endless. I thought it was a perfect fit. And that was my mistake.
The treatment of Debi is inexcusable. I have no words.
I very much regret that we were unable to all work together in this very distressing affair.
I've been sitting back, reading this thread and just shaking my head at the stubbornness of Mr. Stewart.

However, your story of how it all got started makes me pretty sad and even angry (or, rather, irritated) over the whole silly mess, because your idea was/is a wonderful one! It's exactly the kind of collaborative, cooperative, integrated project I enjoy doing. It's such a pity it ran into the unsuspected brick wall of one person's ego and selfishness.

Please don't be discouraged by one friend's bad reaction to a good idea. The town has a great mascot in the iconic ginger tom, and I believe just about anyone in Scotland with any creative talent would - or should - be eager to join in for both their and the town's benefit.

Tobermory Cats are fun, and I hope the fun and happiness they generate will someday teach Mr. Stewart the error of his ways, as everyone else dives into the party he keeps trying to put a stop to.

Hey, there could be a whole 'nother children's book lurking in such an outcome.
 

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I haz taken your shiny idea and made it mine! Also, I made it a limerick. Kitteh limericks ftw!

In Tobermory there lived a cat.
Who wore a bag instead of a hat.
He'll not tell you his name,
For he doesn't seek fame.
And he doesn't have time for a chat.

:D

I see your limerick and raise you a bad haiku!

Tobermory cat
Such hijinks, sound and fury--
for such little gain.
 

BenPanced

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Um

Did anyone else notice that one of (this article says 'the') Tobermory cats died? Mind, it also says that Mr Artist made it famous....


And that it had an owner - not said artist either....

I also wonder if he's up for suing the Royal Opera house?
I wonder if anybody's called him on that BS.
 

RedWombat

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Tread carefully, my friend, lest this turn into a full scale poetry slam.

;)


This is just a note to say
I have painted
the cat
that was in
Tobermory

and which
you were probably
saving
for Facebook

Forgive me
he was delightful
uncopyrightable
and already sold.
 

Stacia Kane

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Again, everything I have written is all my opinion and I may be wrong on some or all that I have written. I apologize for any and all errors.

Respectfully,

Draco (as in Dragon, not the kid from you know...) :)


I appreciate that it's your opinion, but factually, you are incorrect on pretty much every point. Sorry. But you are, and all of the other posts in this thread explain very clearly why you are incorrect.
 

Terie

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Hi,

If I may be of a little help, I will organize your points for you--bear in mind that I may be wrong and that my opinions in this entire post are my own and that I mean no offense to anyone.

It seems to me that he actually gave an answer to all the questions when he said this part from the quote above:


And he states what his actions were here--also from the original quote:


Unfortunately, this has lead to an alleged internet-bullying campaign against the author of the forth coming book.

What, in my opinion, has the members of this forum upset is that it seems to me that they think you allegedly intended for some sort of internet response to be undertaken by your Facebook followers.

With regards to this controversy I would have taken your side in this matter had the internet response against the author of the book not been so allegedly rude.

I respectfully disagree with the notion that the use of broad general ideas constitutes plagiarism, not that you stated it was plagiarism, this is just my opinion on the use of broad general ideas.

But I can understand your position in this matter.

Your Facebook page is impressive, you managed to get hundreds of people to follow a relatively un-newsworthy cat. The very fact that you manged to get a lady from Germany to write to a tourism blog trying to garner you support is impressive--I mean it's a cat from Tobermory that sleeps on top of cars and she is a lady from Germany interested in it. Just think about German culture for a second, in my opinion German culture is off the hook--meaning it is super-interesting, and you managed to get one of them to be interested in your cat from Tobermory. Wowsers.

Your point that the publisher could have called the book any other name and that you suggested that they do so, is one that would have won me over to your side. I mean, according to Gliori's blog the publisher said "...he even has his own Facebook page" when the publisher was pitching the idea to Gliori. Wow, that suggests to me they had your Facebook page in mind and possibly also your title of "Tobermory Cat", that would have been enough to make me take your side.

But, the alleged internet-bullying campaign, just repels me, and I cannot in good conscience support anyone who allegedly initiates such an action--even if it was allegedly started by just asking some questions.

It's not too late, I think, to work with the publisher and author. I mean your Facebook followers are certainly a potential market and even if writers and writing industry professionals are on their side--it doesn't mean that the average reader is going to be on their side.

In all sincerity, I hope that a decent and acceptable resolution will come from all of this.

Again, everything I have written is all my opinion and I may be wrong on some or all that I have written. I apologize for any and all errors.

Respectfully,

Draco (as in Dragon, not the kid from you know...)

(bolding mine)

Dude, your post history (much of which you've deleted) on the subject of plagiarism shows that you have exceedingly little knowledge of the topic.

In a thread on the subject in the Basic Writing Forum, you wondered whether using someone else's words was all right as long as the 'intent and feel' were different. You've deleted that post, but some of the pertinent bits of it are in post 26 here. And yet here, you're suggesting that ideas can be plagiarised. So you are essentially speculating that someone can use my actual words without my permission, but can't use an idea I've had. Do you see how little sense that makes?

You then started a poll thread on what constituted plagiarism, a thread to which you replied only once and subsequently deleted your reply.

Here's the bottom line for you: If you want to discuss plagiarism, study up on the topic before continuing to express wrong opinions on the subject. Here are some links to get started:

International Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works

US Copyright Office

UK Intellectual Property Office

I would also suggest that you work on your reading comprehension. Not only has the idea that the name 'Tobermory Cat' can be either copyrighted or trademarked been thoroughly debunked in this thread, it's also clear from Debi Gliori's post on her blog that the idea for the picture book titled The Tobermory Cat was under discussion by her publisher and her before they found out about the Facebook page.
 
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Draco

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(bolding mine)

Dude, your post history (much of which you've deleted) on the subject of plagiarism shows that you have exceedingly little knowledge of the topic.

In a thread on the subject in the Basic Writing Forum, you wondered whether using someone else's words was all right as long as the 'intent and feel' were different. You've deleted that post, but some of the pertinent bits of it are in post 26 here. And yet here, you're suggesting that ideas can be plagiarised. So you are essentially speculating that someone can use my actual words without my permission, but can't use an idea I've had. Do you see how little sense that makes?

You then started a poll thread on what constituted plagiarism, a thread to which you replied only once and subsequently deleted your reply.

Here's the bottom line for you: If you want to discuss plagiarism, study up on the topic before continuing to express wrong opinions on the subject. Here are some links to get started:

International Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works

US Copyright Office

UK Intellectual Property Office

I would also suggest that you work on your reading comprehension. Not only has the idea that the name 'Tobermory Cat' can be either copyrighted or trademarked been thoroughly debunked in this thread, it's also clear from Debi Gliori's post on her blog that the idea for the picture book titled The Tobermory Cat was under discussion by her publisher and her before they found out about the Facebook page.


I meant no offense to anyone, I regret posting on this thread.

I only sought to change my view on plagiarism to be more in accord with James D. Macdonald.
Ideas ... are a dime a dozen and overpriced at that. It's people who have few ideas who have this ... idea ... that ideas by themselves are valuable.

I've had at least eighteen ideas in the past quarter hour. I'll give them to you for free, and, if I wind up using one myself the resulting works will be so different that there's no chance that any copyright violation, far less plagiarism, could exist.

So, no, using an idea is not and cannot be plagiarism.

You have stated that you are friends with Debi Gliori, calling me "Dude" and criticizing me for deleting my posts indicates to me (just my opinion) that my post irritated you somewhat. Please, this is a forum and I am not trying to get into a squabble with anyone. If you want to be "right" then you can be "right". I need to learn to write so I can make a living, I'm not here to fight.

Again, I did not mean to offend anyone.
 
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BenPanced

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I meant no offense to anyone, I regret posting on this thread.

I only sought to change my view on plagiarism to be more in accord with James D. Macdonald.


You have stated that you are friends with Debi Gliori, calling me "Dude" and criticizing me for deleting my posts indicates to me (just my opinion) that my post irritated you somewhat. Please, this is a forum and I am not trying to get into a squabble with anyone. If you want to be "right" then you can be "right". I need to learn to write so I can make a living, I'm not here to fight.

Again, I did not mean to offend anyone.
This isn't about somebody wanting to be right for the sake of being right and arguing to prove his voice is loudest. This is about (continuously?) broadcasting incorrect information about plagiarism in a writing forum and having that information corrected in a polite yet firm as possible manner.

And deleting your posts is just bad form around here. You want to be taken seriously as a writer? Forum posts are your words. You put them up. You need to own them. Unless it's something truly heinous or you've accidentally posted something in the wrong area, keep them up. Being criticized for deleting posts does irritate people around here but it's not for the ideas in the posts; a lot of members don't use the quote feature so when you delete posts, people are just standing around talking to themselves and nobody knows what's going on.

If you don't understand something, it doesn't hurt to come right out and say you don't understand something. We've dozens of experts in myriad fields who are more than willing to share that knowledge. All you need to do is ask. But when you demonstrate that lack of knowledge and hide behind "well, it's just my opinion that...", yeah, you're gonna get called on the carpet but good. Do it enough and play the butt-hurt victim whenever you get called out and, yeah, you're gonna piss people off.
 

Draco

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(bolding mine)

Here's the bottom line for you: If you want to discuss plagiarism, study up on the topic before continuing to express wrong opinions on the subject. Here are some links to get started:

International Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works

US Copyright Office

UK Intellectual Property Office

I offered you a peace offering by saying that I would delete my post if you would delete yours. But you did not respond.
So lets discuss shall we?


People have a right to their OPINIONS.

People also have a right to CHANGE THEIR MINDS.

There are several posters who say that IDEAS can't be stolen:

That's horrible.

Nobody can steal concepts or ideas.
...
Here's the thing that some folks need to realise - you can't claim 'ownership' of a story like that - I mean, if you could then there would only ever have been ONE book written about WW2, and ONE book written about Jesus, and ONE book written about Henry VIII, and ONE book written about..... see where I'm going with this.

If you could 'own' an idea based on actual history or events then we wouldn't have any historical novels or films.

Looking at it another way, the guy is an artist - is he painting scenes that have been painted by other artists in the past? If so, by his own logic, isn't he stealing their ideas?
Yes, indeed. There is no controversy. Anyone who knows anything about copyright and creativity knows that you can't copyright an idea, or even a title, least of all a cat. (I can't believe I just said that!)

Although there is no controversy, there is ignorance, and that's what we can work to rectify. This ignorance is not a matter of opinion but of fact, law and life.

We do not own the things we write about. Even if the complainant technically owned the cat, anyone would still be allowed to write about it. We may write about (or paint) any topic or object or person we wish to. It is very often the case that two writers come up with the same idea and even the same names for characters - it happened when author Tim Bowler and I discovered after publication in consecutive months that we had both written a YA novel about a 14-year-old boy called Luke with synesthesia. The stories were, however, and inevitably, completely different, just as Debi Gliori's creative story is different from the book of photos of a cat with the same "name". And let's point out that that name is generic, a name that has stuck to the cats of Tobermory, a name that merely describes where the cat lives and is seen. It doesn't require enormous powers of creativity to think of calling a stray cat who lives in Tobermory the Tobermory Cat!

We own our words and our pictures, not our ideas. Anyone can have an idea - it's turning it into a piece of art that involves talent, skill and hard work.

We need to stand up and explain this to those who need to know, otherwise foolishness like this attack on Debi will keep on happening. This is why I've been tweeting and commenting in the last few days - which is how Old Hack came across the story, I think. *waves at Old Hack*
I think you'd have to be really specific. So for instance, you wanted to write a space opera about this boy who finds out he has special powers - let's call it The Force - and he's called Luke, right? And Luke has to master the bad side, feel the good side or things will get very bad indeed, but they're going to get bad anyway because Chief Bad Side Dude (Dath Ladar)is actually his dad! *gasp!* And then it turns out that chick he fancies is actually his sister....

If you're just writing about a broad idea - boy with special powers must learn how to use them, in space! - you're probably okay, though it might seem a bit derivative. Using all the other stuff as well? Not so much.

In this case, all the FB guy has is a facebook page about a stray cat. The stray cat and the town are pretty much the only two common elements, not very specific at all. Book has extra elements real life does not (IIRC the new book, the cat plays the violin. Pretty sure FB cat does not) so it's pretty silly to say it's plagiarism, because the author has, clearly, used their own ideas as well as inventing a story to go with said cat (FB cat does not have a plot) - not to mention their original artwork etc. They took some inspiration (added bonus, inspiration wasn;t from FB but another source)and made it their own. Nothing wrong with that.
Ideas ... are a dime a dozen and overpriced at that. It's people who have few ideas who have this ... idea ... that ideas by themselves are valuable.

I've had at least eighteen ideas in the past quarter hour. I'll give them to you for free, and, if I wind up using one myself the resulting works will be so different that there's no chance that any copyright violation, far less plagiarism, could exist.

So, no, using an idea is not and cannot be plagiarism.
 
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Terie

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I offered you a peace offering by saying that I would delete my post if you would delete yours. But you did not respond.

Well, gosh. It's a pity that my need to go to work inconvenienced you.

If you didn't have a well-established history of deleting your posts, I would probably have done as you asked. However, since you DO have that history, and since you have some sense of entitlement that people must reply to you immediately, their own lives and schedules notwithstanding, I shall decline.

Oh, and if you'd left this private, I would have done so, too. It is you who took it public.

Besides, Stacia's reply to you also needs context.

As BenPanced remarked upstream, it's important to own your words.

As to this:

There are several posters who say that IDEAS can't be stolen:

That's correct, they can't be stolen. Neither can titles. Nor the names of local legends, mascots, and so on. Yet you suggested that Debi Gliori shouldn't have used the title The Tobermory Cat because Mr Stewart has a Facebook page titled 'The Tobermory Cat'. And that last bit is where you were wrong.
 

Deleted member 42

You have stated that you are friends with Debi Gliori, calling me "Dude" and criticizing me for deleting my posts indicates to me (just my opinion) that my post irritated you somewhat. Please, this is a forum and I am not trying to get into a squabble with anyone. If you want to be "right" then you can be "right". I need to learn to write so I can make a living, I'm not here to fight.

Again, I did not mean to offend anyone.

Draco?

You need to post less and read a lot more. You're mistaking your audience.

Hugely.
 

Draco

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You weren't the first one to go there, and now you're pitching a tantrum that you can't be the last.

Go study up on copyright infringement before you accuse innocent people of doing it.

Also?..............

Yes ofcourse , soothe him over by saying he is pitching a tantrum...this will surely smooth things over.

Belittling someone is not sensible to me.

But ofcourse you must know more about being sensible than I do.
 
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