The Compleat 'Thorn Forest' (A Gift for AW)

Stew21

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
27,651
Reaction score
9,136
Location
lost in headspace
As will I. :)

It will be full of mirrors, to be sure.


If you don't reflect, then what are you doing here. ;)


I reflected on what I'm doing here. Turns out, i was reflecting.
 

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
It's interesting how often abstruse or cryptic are seen as either necessary or sufficient conditions for poetic. Art doesn't need to be hard to understand, though it usually requires a lot of effort and skill. And, by the same token, being direct - or artless, if you will - doesn't preclude a work from being poetic. Making the reader guess doesn't make either a poem, or a response, more artistic or deep. It just makes them more open to interpretation - or misinterpretation.

Rather, I think it takes a lot of work to make a poem read easily and with great effect. I think this poem in particular is so readable, and so moving, because the poet has taken such care to make it that way. Not just with this poem, but with all the poems he's read and written up to this point. A friend told me yesterday that we are the sum of our decisions over time, and I think there's something to that.

Mostly, I think the less effort the poet puts into the poem, the more effort it will require of the reader. And the reader has the option of walking away.

difficult poetry can be confounding, like poems by TS Eliot
honestly, I have no idea what some of his lyrics mean
oddly, I still enjoy his -- a lot !
that said, I generally veer toward comprehensible poetry
shameful to be sure

ps how's emily dickenson rate as a simplistic yet fantastic poet ?
pps and of course "difficult" is subjective
difficult to me may well be child's play to thee
 

Magdalen

Petulantly Penitent
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
6,372
Reaction score
1,566
Location
Insignificant
It's interesting how often abstruse or cryptic are seen as either necessary or sufficient conditions for poetic. Art doesn't need to be hard to understand, though it usually requires a lot of effort and skill. And, by the same token, being direct - or artless, if you will - doesn't preclude a work from being poetic. Making the reader guess doesn't make either a poem, or a response, more artistic or deep. It just makes them more open to interpretation - or misinterpretation.

Rather, I think it takes a lot of work to make a poem read easily and with great effect. I think this poem in particular is so readable, and so moving, because the poet has taken such care to make it that way. Not just with this poem, but with all the poems he's read and written up to this point. A friend told me yesterday that we are the sum of our decisions over time, and I think there's something to that.

Mostly, I think the less effort the poet puts into the poem, the more effort it will require of the reader. And the reader has the option of walking away.

Every word's a radish - I like to shape them into rosettes and group them in lovely bouquets I call poems. Still, I can't help but notice that there are alot of people out there who Do Not Like Radishes, no matter what.

I think this is a wonderful bit o' discussion going on here!!! And I lurve it, damnit! Please pardon my french and my dross - xoxoxo
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
William, I am wondering what went into planning your poem-in-progress, and whether you ever find yourself rethinking anything in the early parts as you move forward.

Before you posted a single stanza of this work, you must have spent a great deal of time mapping out where you wanted it to go and the imagery and metaphors that would take it there. It shows in every line. (And for the record, as a reader, I can’t imagine what you’d change in what you’ve done so far. The flow of one stanza to another is pitch-perfect, and I can’t wait to see how it moves forward.)

Still, speaking for myself as a writer, until a poem is done, I’m constantly tinkering with (or at least rethinking) the whole damn thing, including the opening stanza, especially if it’s a longer work. For that reason, I could never show anyone any of my work while it is still in progress – I don’t work in a linear way at all.

Indeed, what prompts this question is my realization yesterday that my current poem-in-progress should end with the idea that now begins it.

I suspect you’re a more disciplined/organized writer than I am. But I was curious about your process as a writer, and particularly in regard to this work.
 
Last edited:

William Haskins

poet
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
29,099
Reaction score
8,848
Age
58
Website
www.poisonpen.net
William, I am wondering what went into planning your poem-in-progress, and whether you ever find yourself rethinking anything in the early parts as you move forward.

not really any planning at all. part one was written without any idea what part two would be, much less what the greater arc would ultimately become. i post each poem within moments of finishing it - part of a somewhat sick bargain with myself.

the project was deliberately taken on as a public high wire act which, at its root, is far less an exercise in ego and far more an exercise in masochism, of daring myself to succeed while being pretty convinced i'll fuck it up, with the full knowledge that fucking it up, if it goes down that way, will be on full display.

i don't rethink any of it; it's a conversation with readers, so i try to measure my words carefully before i share them. after that, there's no taking them back.

Before you posted a single stanza of this work, you must have spent a great deal of time mapping out where you wanted it to go and the imagery and metaphors that would take it there. It shows in every line. (And for the record, as a reader, I can’t imagine what you’d change in what you’ve done so far. The flow of one stanza to another is pitch-perfect, and I can’t wait to see how it moves forward.)

this might be disappointing, but i didn't map it out at all. every character and event in the poem has emerged through the process of writing each successive installment.

jacob has existed as a character in my mind for a few years now, but in somewhat abstract form; as a boy seeking to be human in a world in which he's regarded, and often treated, as an animal. he seemed a worthwhile vehicle for exploring some dark corners in my mind.

Still, speaking for myself as a writer, until a poem is done, I’m constantly tinkering with (or at least rethinking) the whole damn thing, including the opening stanza, especially if it’s a longer work. For that reason, I could never show anyone any of my work while it is still in progress – I don’t work in a linear way at all.

i've made the comparison before of my approach to poetry being more akin to photography than to writing. a photo is a product of a vantage point, of light, of distance and an instinct for observation all manifest in an instant. all of these facets contribute to the image that is captured.

i rarely revise. plenty of people have argued, perhaps correctly, that i should. but i don't, except in very specific instances.

Indeed, what prompts this question is my realization yesterday that my current poem-in-progress should end with the idea that now begins it.

in my experience, we often know the right answer all along to a million things we vacillate over.

I suspect you’re a more disciplined/organized writer than I am. But I was curious about your process as a writer, and particularly in regard to this work.

i am neither. i post one of the installments and then open a new text file on my desktop and dip in and out of it until i'm done and then i cut it from that doc and paste it into the post. i doubt i've even got the final versions of these poems on my computer.

i'm a mess and should not be trusted to dispense any advice about writing poetry.

in closing, i want to say i really appreciate your kind words and all of the wonderful and supportive things people have said over these past six months.

i look forward to finishing it, as it has become something of an odd obsession. i can only hope it will hold up.

regardless, it's been worth it.
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
I am deeply envious. Also impressed.

Thank you for answering.

in my experience, we often know the right answer all along to a million things we vacillate over.

I often torture myself for days over a word choice or a line and end up returning to the first thing that popped into my head.

Sometimes an entire stanza comes quickly, but I never trust it when it does. I have to rewrite it half a dozen different ways at least before I can trust that I had it right the first time. (At least when it comes to anything serious. Fun stuff I'll flip off in minutes.)

I lack your confidence -- I can't help but feel if something came to me easily, it can't possibly be any good (even if I later decide it is).

ETA:

I think I envy your confidence more than your talent. Though of course I admire the talent.
 
Last edited:

Kylabelle

unaccounted for
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
26,200
Reaction score
4,015
You're quite far past the point of maybe fucking up, though. Give yourself that much credit. :D

*awaiting the next chapter*
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
marginally.

I shall try to do marginally better another time.

ETA:

I'm sorry, I did not mean for that to come off as caustic, and have just realized it could. I meant it as a joke. FYI, I know William didn't mind the questions because I PMed him beforehand to ask if he'd mind if I posed them here (since for me they would have been difficult to answer).

William, I hope you know that, envy notwithstanding, I admire your work tremendously and look forward very much to the next installment.
 
Last edited:

Stew21

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
27,651
Reaction score
9,136
Location
lost in headspace
That's a great definition of liberation.
Indeed.

I judge all my successes on how far past the point of maybe fucking up I get.

It's my yard stick.


Or for you metric system bastards, my meter stick. (Which is actually better considering the word "meter" in a poetic context).

My other measuring stick is how many boys come to the yard for milkshakes.

(That was only slightly off the rails, i think. )
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
I feel sexually harassed, though I'm not sure by whom.
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
First reaction -- now I'm really getting bad vibes from Anna.

Jacob proposes they go "feral in forests, unconquered unbridled and wise."

And she proposes they leave the forest and go "into wickedness, bricked, electric, forged by the fallible hand of man."

If I were him, I wouldn't eat any fruit she offers.

ETA:

I love the city-by-night imagery -- "night lies dappled in pools of light" and "darkness crouches in alleys." Very evocative. I see the streetlights and the shadows.
 
Last edited: