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Musa Publishing

honeysock

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Originally Posted by honeysock
(Seriously, how does someone with no money/income break into the traditional publishing world? You don't. You have to have money in order to support yourself while you work your way up. For a very long time it was a rich white man's world. This was/is ethically wrong. The current traditional publishing model, much like our current traditional educational model, is broken.)

Easy. You write a good book and send it out to agents. I've got plenty of friends who have managed it and some of them are neither white nor male. And saying that publishing is broken is so last year.


Sorry. I should have been clearer. I meant breaking into the world of publishing on the editing/business end, i.e. the NY houses, not writing and selling a book.
 

Marian Perera

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Sorry. I should have been clearer. I meant breaking into the world of publishing on the editing/business end, i.e. the NY houses, not writing and selling a book.

I'm afraid I still don't see what, if anything, is wrong about working one's way up through the publishing industry, gaining experience, saving money for startup capital, etc. and then opening a business. But is any of this relevant to Musa specifically?
 

honeysock

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I'm afraid I still don't see what, if anything, is wrong about working one's way up through the publishing industry, gaining experience, saving money for startup capital, etc. and then opening a business. But is any of this relevant to Musa specifically?

In that it's an e-pub, and e-publishers are breaking new ground, breaking standard publishing rules, and filling some of the cracks of the old broken (in places) publishing model, yes, it's relevant.

And no, there's nothing wrong with working your way up in publishing via hard work and experience. My point was that the opportunity to do that was only available to a select few: those who came from money.
 

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Originally Posted by honeysock
(Seriously, how does someone with no money/income break into the traditional publishing world? You don't. You have to have money in order to support yourself while you work your way up. For a very long time it was a rich white man's world. This was/is ethically wrong. The current traditional publishing model, much like our current traditional educational model, is broken.)

Sorry. I should have been clearer. I meant breaking into the world of publishing on the editing/business end, i.e. the NY houses, not writing and selling a book.

Simple. You get appropriate experience, perhaps editing your student paper and so on; you get an internship if you can (although as these are often unpaid I agree it can be troublesome); or you apply for jobs in publishing, get interviews, and get a job in the business just like in any other business.

In that it's an e-pub, and e-publishers are breaking new ground, breaking standard publishing rules, and filling some of the cracks of the old broken (in places) publishing model, yes, it's relevant.

E-publishers are only breaking new ground by publishing in a relatively new format. The big trade publishers are also publishing in e-format, though, so it's not perhaps as groundbreaking as you imagine. And I still suspect you've bought into online rhetoric about how "publishing is broken" far more than is going to be useful to you.

And no, there's nothing wrong with working your way up in publishing via hard work and experience. My point was that the opportunity to do that was only available to a select few: those who came from money.

My father was a London taxi driver. I did not grow up in a wealthy family, and I did not have any connections, friends or experience when I got my first job in publishing. I realise that was a long time ago now and that things have changed: but I see new faces at publishers all the time, in every department, and if they're all from wealthy families then publishing must have a much higher proportion of siblings and first cousins working for it than is immediately apparent.

And you might like to correct your assumption that you have to be male to work in publishing: it's one of the most female-oriented businesses there is, with more women than men making good careers for themselves.
 

honeysock

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"And you might like to correct your assumption that you have to be male to work in publishing . . ."

Oh, no, I didn't mean that at all. Of course I'm aware of all the women in publishing these days. I think I follow most of them on twitter. : ) I'm talking about the '60s and 70s when, if, for example, you were the daughter of a poor Arkansas farmer and you wanted to move to NY and build a career in publishing.

And now, because I don't want to have the honor of being the first writer to have a contract cancelled by my beloved Musa, I will take my toys and go home. :flag: :D
 

Marian Perera

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And no, there's nothing wrong with working your way up in publishing via hard work and experience. My point was that the opportunity to do that was only available to a select few: those who came from money.

Now I'm curious - do you believe that the only employees in the publishing industry who get hired or promoted (to the point where they can plan to strike out in their own businesses) are the ones from wealthy families?

Nothing else matters as much in publishing? Not your experience or your talent or the number of bestselling novels you've acquired, just how rich your family is?

That's a really... interesting... viewpoint.
 

Marian Perera

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I'm talking about the '60s and 70s when, if, for example, you were the daughter of a poor Arkansas farmer and you wanted to move to NY and build a career in publishing.

I hope you're not basing your current view of the publishing industry on what it was like in the 60s and 70s?

And I searched on the internet for five minutes and found that Pauline Kael wrote for the New Yorker in the 60s and 70s. Judy-Lynn Del Rey was an editor in the 70s. I believe Dorothy Woolfolk, the first female editor of DC comics, worked around that time too.

But don't let facts get in the way of a rant.
 

Christine N.

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Not to take this too far off-topic, I think I get where Honeysock is coming from. Ages ago, if you wanted to START a publisher, as Celina has done, you had to be wealthy and you were usually male. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but there were a fair number of Rupert Murdochs around forty or fifty years ago, running the show.

Things HAVE changed, and now anyone can run and own a publishing house, and Rupert is a dinosaur, last of a dying breed. There are plenty of people of both sexes and from all walks of life working in publishing. I think her point was not about working your way up from the bottom, it was who started at the top.

I think. I could be wrong.

I wish Celina all the best :)
 
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We're releasing what? 300 new/signed books within the next year. We've already released 100--without any seeming problems. Of those 400, close to 100 are reissues at least.
Since you only addressed my post long enough to thank me for my input, I have to repeat a major concern with this huge number of releases. From a publishing standpoint, it doesn't matter if a percentage of those books are reissues, or that they're not all novels - ALL of your books (ideally) need to be marketed and promoted, so how can you possibly do that for roughly 33-ish new releases per month? That's a huge undertaking, and you've not mentioned how you make that happen.
I respectfully submit that this constant HORROR at the size of our release schedule is stemming from (pardon me for saying this) complete ignorance about what we're doing at Musa.
We're in the dark because you have yet to say how you make this happen. So yes, this is a horrific number of scheduled releases for latter 2011 and 2012. And since we don't have any answers as to why you would bite off such a huge task, it's logical for us to suggest authors give Musa some time to prove that you can give all your books the kind of marketing and promotion needed in order to sell books.

We've taken on the challenge of building a publisher that no other publisher in the world believes can work.
I'm sorry, but this still sticks to the bottom of my shoe because you haven't made it clear as to what differentiates your company from any other publisher who had the nerve to say something like this.

I would love nothing more than to see you guys succeed, but I'm not seeing anything in your posts that makes me snap my fingers and say, "Ohhh, yeah, that makes total sense."

I am a publisher, and I do have hands-on experience with selling books for a living, and none of this makes sense to me. And the fact that you've pointedly avoided a fellow publisher's concerns gives me pause about your ability to engage in this discussion.

Penhead said:
I'll take suggestions from the "mainstream" publishing industry with a grain of salt. They sneer at e-publishers anyway, and believe that any e-pubbed writer was e-pubbed because they "weren't good enough"
I'm not sure where you've gotten this idea, but I haven't seen commercial trade presses sneer at e-publishers or their authors. E-publishing is simply another form of publication. And this is not the reason Jane and I raised concerns in this thread.

I for one am a better fit for e-publishing. I believe I'll have more control over my work ...
It appears you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say that e-publishing has the same standards as commercial trade publishing, then you insist that e-publishing will give you more control. Which is it? Does e-publishing have lower standards that allows authors "more control," or do they adhere to the same strict standards as commercial trade presses?

Musa accepts a lot of different genres, and I can't help but wonder how they do editorial, marketing, and promotional justice to them all. The successful e-publishers that I've kept my eyes on specialize in one main genre, and this is simply smart business because they have established contacts within that particular genre.

Based on what little Celina has said regarding this issue, I don't see how Musa can put a promotional dent in that many genres.

Honeysock said: Seriously, how does someone with no money/income break into the traditional publishing world? You don't. You have to have money in order to support yourself while you work your way up.
It's done just as would be for any business...you learn the business so you understand the costs involved in such an enterprise, make sure you double/triple it, and then see if you have that kind of operating cash to make it work. There's no mystery to it.
The current traditional publishing model, much like our current traditional educational model, is broken.
This is a platitude that gets dragged out from time to time, and it's often uttered by people who have been rejected by trade presses. So really, this old and moldy complaint comes off as sour grapes. If commercial trade publishing is broken, then perhaps you could tell us why.

See, publishing these days is about options, and all of them can work. Why is it that people insist one particular option - say e-publishing - can only exist at the expense of another (trade publishing)? It's an illogical argument because it's simply untrue. And this is the bone you're trying to pick with those of us who are questioning Musa's abilities. It isn't because we feel e-publishing is a bad idea - it's a terrific idea. We're nervous because we don't see how Musa can accomplish all it's claiming.

In short, no one is attacking. We simply need more information so authors can make informed decisions as to whether Musa can enhance their literary career.
 
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priceless1

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Not to take this too far off-topic, I think I get where Honeysock is coming from. Ages ago, if you wanted to START a publisher, as Celina has done, you had to be wealthy
Christine, much has changed, but not the money part. Publishing is expensive, and it always will be because production costs, marketing and promotion are far from free. This is a media-driven society, and if you want your authors' books to get the proper attention, you have to spend money to make that happen.
 

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What makes you say this, Unimportant? Is it because of specific points in Musa's business plan, or because of the positive atmosphere in this thread?

Good question. Hmmm. I guess as I track various threads here I mentally separate small presses into good witch/bad witch, and had Musa down as good witch. But I'd have to go back and read through the whole thread again to see what aspects of the conversation had taken me to that decision. After I've had coffee, I reckon....
 

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The only "hissy fit meltdowns" seem to be from those who raised questions, and then had them challenged. See Richard's post, which tells someone they shouldn't even discuss the subject. Anyone who can't conduct a reasonable discussion probably doesn't belong on an adult forum on the internet.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm fairly certain that most writers carefully weigh the negatives and positives before they sign with ANY publisher, new or "old." We don't just jump on the first one we find via search engines. They're researched for the best fit and integrity (so far as can be determined).

Priceless, my mouth's not square, so you got it out straight. I think the trade publishers are limited by the number of books they can "risk and release." They don't want to lose money, so they follow current trends. They're less likely to take a chance on someone who writes, say, a novel set in the French Revolution when English Regency is flying off the shelves. Re-read what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that I thought e-publishing houses had lower standards (although some certainly do - I've bought some e-books that were written by semi-literate authors).
 
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Christine N.

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Christine, much has changed, but not the money part. Publishing is expensive, and it always will be because production costs, marketing and promotion are far from free. This is a media-driven society, and if you want your authors' books to get the proper attention, you have to spend money to make that happen.

No argument there, but unlike the old days when you had 'old' money or 'family' money, or be independently wealthy and a huge deal in business, it seems to be more open to anyone who can get enough seed money to get it going, whether by fronting it themselves or getting investors or whatever.

There's a different feel to it now, certainly. You can't deny there used to be a 'good ol' boys' network in publishing -- but in the 50's there was one in EVERY business. All hail the sexual revolution ;)
 

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The only "hissy fit meltdowns" seem to be from those who raised questions, and then had them challenged. See Richard's post, which tells someone they shouldn't even discuss the subject. Anyone who can't conduct a reasonable discussion probably doesn't belong on an adult forum on the internet.
I think this boils down to a matter of perception. There have been no meltdowns or temper tantrums. We've asked solid questions about this publisher's abilities. So far, Celina has avoided answering some of those questions. Asking for clarification is not having a hissy fit. It's what smart people do when they're looking at a publisher's viability.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm fairly certain that most writers carefully weigh the negatives and positives before they sign with ANY publisher, new or "old." We don't just jump on the first one we find via search engines. They're researched for the best fit and integrity (so far as can be determined).
In order to know what those risks may be, the publisher has to be discussed here in the Bewares Board. This is how authors can make educated decisions regarding their literary careers. I'm puzzled as to why this bothers you.

I think the trade publishers are limited by the number of books they can "risk and release." They don't want to lose money, so they follow current trends. They're less likely to take a chance on someone who writes, say, a novel set in the French Revolution when English Regency is flying off the shelves.
I would rephrase that to say publishers sign what they believe they can sell, based on their years in the business and tracking reader trends. But they also take risks when they decide to try a new sub-genre - hello vampire romance.

That said, the more elusive genres are often terrific choices for POD presses or e-publishers, and I and many of my colleagues support that wholeheartedly.
Nowhere did I say that I thought e-publishing houses had lower standards.
No, you implied it by saying that you were going with e-publishing because you felt they would give you more control over your book, as opposed to trade publishing.
I believe I'll have more control over my work
If, as you say, there is no difference, editorially and quality-wise, then how can you advocate that e-publishing will offer you more control over your book? You're trying to argue two sides of the same coin.

At any rate, let's not derail this thread. The discussion is Musa, and I'm patiently waiting for Celina to come back and address some of the questions I've asked several times.
 

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Some people seem to have reading comprehension problems.

The "hissy fit meltdown" remark was not made by me. It was made by someone else, and directed at another poster who wrote in Musa's defense.

No, you implied it by saying that you were going with e-publishing because you felt they would give you more control over your book, as opposed to trade publishing.

Where do you get the idea that I think that means that e-publishers have lower standards? My work is not beneath writing standards. I do write longer novels than most publishers are willing to accept, and I stand a lower chance of being forced to do large-scale edits in order to comply with word counts. I write historicals set in eras that don't interest some of the trade houses at the moment.

Or did you just want to get in a dig there? That reminds me of why I hated RWA groups.

As for the control over my work remark that I made - re-read above.
 

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Apparently, there's a perception problem by some here. The "emotional" responses seem to be coming from the Musa authors, not from the people asking questions.

As has been pointed out on many other threads, coming to the defense of a publisher "guns ablazing" is probably a poor idea. Neither are bringing out accusations that we hate small presses, that traditional publishing is dying, that commercial publishers fear e-publishers, etc.

My suggestion to an earlier poster was to step away and not to post while "wrapped around the axle", as we used to say back in the Army. Presenting examples and facts are useful. Posting emotionally is usually counter-productive AND it usually does nothing to put your publisher in a good light.

I'd suggest several people take a step back and take a deep breath.

Or not.

After all, I might get accused of throwing a hissy- fit again. *grin*
 

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Richard, not everyone is a Musa author. I'm not.

You can't issue criticisms and then not expect people to respond. Attempts to brush them off as "unobjective" or just telling them to shut up are hardly professional, either.

I would expect a discussion of publisher viability to include remarks from critics and those willing to speak in their favor. Is this a discussion board, or not? If not, then I'm probably in the wrong place.
 

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OKAY--

Everyone needs to take a deep breath here for a moment.

Let me reiterate this for everyone to understand--questioning a publisher in this forum is not only expected, it is NECESSARY.

None of these questions are any kind of personal attack on Musa or on me or on any of my authors. These are legitimate questions from highly respected members of this watchdog sub-forum of Absolute Write. These are questions I have ASKED MYSELF of other publishers, and have consciously worked to address at Musa BEFORE they became issues for us.

I absolutely DO NOT WANT ANY MUSA AUTHORS to come into this forum, which has been my online home for years, and losing their minds over this.

Musa Publishing is a FOUR month old e-publisher. We have a large release schedule for several reasons. First, we are providing homes for stranded AMP authors and their books. Many of those books are being released either in bulk or, for some prolific authors, one a week for several weeks. Second off, due to the interest in our magazine Penumbra, our speculative fiction imprint is immense. We are releasing a book a week in that imprint, which is run by a separate head editor with his own staff. Third off, we contract a lot of series and serials, which are placed on set release schedules for regularity of the installments and remain under the supervision of a developmental editor from beginning to end. And finally, we are developing an extensive reissue catalog from multiple trade published authors. With right at 50% of our titles at 50k or less, the schedule is a lot less formidable to us, perhaps, than it is to people not involved with the process. Our initial push to release books came from two points of reason: one, we wanted to get as many stranded authors back online and for sale as soon as we could, and two, we wanted to approach the holiday season with a substantial catalog of books for sale. Now that we're past our killer December (and it was a killer December) we've dialed things back and are working on expanding the cushion of time between galleys and publication.

Right now, in most imprints, we're looking at six months from submission to publication. In other imprints, like our speculative fiction imprint or the YA imprint, we're looking at full schedules into the fall of 2012.

Musa is growing and evolving more every day. And while I appreciate the discussion , there is absolutely no need for anyone to get pissy over this. I'm a big girl (hush up you in the peanut gallery) and I have taken on and welcomed the questions of anyone at AW or anywhere else about our operations and will continue to do so.

We're trying to do a lot at Musa--developing ten imprints simultaneously, running a monthly magazine, developing a working internship program, offering master classes over the next three months for our authors, interns and staff. We are constantly looking for ways to better the business, our books, and our people.

That HAS to be able to stand up to scrutiny, or what we're trying to do is a waste of time.

Now--I'd answer more but I have a staff meeting to get ready for. I'll read through this tonight when I have time. Musa authors--keep your cool and remember what your purpose is here. Not to defend, but to learn and/or educate. AW is a valuable resource to you--and nothing is MORE valuable to you than this particular forum as you continue your writing career. Don't jeopardize your standing here. Okay?
 

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not everyone is a Musa author. I'm not.
But you've queried, so you have a dog in this race.

You can't issue criticisms and then not expect people to respond. Attempts to brush them off as "unobjective" or just telling them to shut up are hardly professional, either.
The problem with this is that you aren't in a position to reply to our concerns other than you have a vested interest in seeing the controversy die down. We, on the other hand, don't have a dog in this race other than to help authors understand all aspects of any give business. We're bringing up questions because we are in the business, and this will go a long way toward helping authors decide if Musa is for them.

Sadly, you're not doing yourself or Musa any favors because you don't know the inner workings and can't offer anything useful other than to argue for argument's sake. It's a bit troll-like.
 

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but let me just say that the publishing industry, indeed several industries, have actually come to be dominaed by women. Publishing is something on the order of 60-70% dominated by female management, perhaps more. But while I was with the company Walmart's upper management was often cited as being as much as 80% dominated by women.

There really is no glass ceiling any more. If anything, women are coming more and more to emege as dominant figures in a formerly male-dominated society.
 

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See, that was my point. Coming on-line and responding emotionally isn't helping your cause. If you can say "X publisher published me and I sold Y number of books and I'm getting Z% royalties and Q advance," then you have facts and figures that really add to the conversation.

If you just come here and say " I really like X publisher and you all are being meanies because . . .", well, that's not very productive.
 

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None of these questions are any kind of personal attack on Musa or on me or on any of my authors. These are legitimate questions from highly respected members of this watchdog sub-forum of Absolute Write.

I agree, and am glad you see things this way, Celina. I look forward to you returning to the thread and answering our questions.

I'd like to reiterate that I hope you succeed in making Musa an extravagantly beautiful success, and that you make all your authors best sellers. If that happens I'll be the first to applaud.
 

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Purely as points of information:

A recent hissy-fit meltdown.

A hissy-fit meltdown from a while back.

I can find as many more as y'all would like; hissy-fit meltdowns are a cliche.

Which is all rather off-topic.

Let's make this a no-pile-on zone. And let's stick with respectful discussion of facts and the interpretation of same, as they pertain to Musa.