Is 'Just write it' ALWAYS good advice?

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Layla Nahar

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I, for one, think it can minimize the help-seeker's struggle.
 

jaksen

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I'm one of those who has written, 'just write,' or words to that effect on various threads here and there. Prob. less than five, but I've done it, regardless. Why, might one ask?

Because I've seen so many people who hem and haw, outline and then reoutline, then do character sketches, then backstories, then research various things and then talk about them here, on AW. They want advice. They want support. They want confirmation from those who also outline. And invariably, they get it. There are many of us on AW who will bullet point each argument or question or complaint with sound advice, patience support, yes do this and no don't do that, try this.

But I am of the mindset that writers write. Period. Those who outline, do so, then they write. Those who don't outline, just write.

You cannot be a writer if you aren't writing, so when I've seen a long and meandering thread, one in which the op is replying and seems to be seeking answers, my answer has been: stop all that other stuff and just write. Others on AW have done the same.

Even if a writer needs to outline and plan and whatever else, hopefully he or she is also writing. Something. Anything. It's the only way a writer will ever, ever get anywhere.

But of course, this is only my opinion ...
 

blacbird

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I feel the need to clarify my "yes" response to the OP: What I meant was in keeping with what StaciaKane said, which boils down to: At some point, "just write it" is the only advice to be given.

You may need to plan XYZ, or outline ABC, but "at some point" ya gotta actually write stuff. It's dead easy to get wrapped up in "planning", to the detriment of real story construction. And we seem to get a hell of a lot of thread-starter questions here that take the form of "How much description is too much? How many characters are too many? How much dialogue is too much? How many 'r's in a manuscript are too many?', etc.

To which the only possible answer, ever, is 'I have to see the writing.' To which I often get the impression doesn't yet exist.

I developed this bias as a result of frequenting a local writer's group for several years a while back. The two most prolific producers of material to be critiqued were 1. A man who longed to writer 'technothrillers', and had planned, via detailed outline, a series of forty-some, one of which was partly done. What he showed of it was utterly unreadable, filled to overflowing with implausible action, impossible action, anachronistic references, horrid grammar, and characters as substantial as morning mist in the sunshine.

The second was a man longing to write epic high fantasy novels, and all he ever showed was backstory world-building.

At some point, just write the damn story. Then, if you want it critiqued, by all means get it into the hands of critiquers (SYW here is a good place for that). All the nitpicky questions you may have can be answered only in the context of actual story.

I teach a university-level composition course, based entirely upon students actually writing. It is titled 'Methods of Written Communication', which I consider a great course title, and I try to construct the course to meet that title. I know that other instructors who teach this course rely on tests and quizzes, because I've seen some of them. I particularly recall on instructor's quiz on the use of commas, left behind in the same classroom where I teach. Dreadful waste of time. I teach punctuation and grammar and all the other nitpicky tools useful to make writing work, but I can judge every student's ability to use those tools by assessing the writing assignments they turn in. I don't need to give quizzes on such things.

Those principles also apply to my view on creative writing of the sort people who participate in AW are interested in. So . . . at some point, just write it. In general, I suggest doing that sooner, rather than later.

Overplanning has probably produced more lifeless wooden story narrative than anything else. Too many inexperienced writers think that if they just get everything planned out well enough, they can then 'write by number', filling in all the bullet points with prose. Maybe some can (Terry Brooks comes to mind, from a forum at a conference some years ago in which I saw him discuss his heavily-outlined approach). Great if it works. Others, not so much (John Saul comes to mind, from the same panel in the same conference).

For me, story-writing is a journey. Sometimes I know where I want to end up, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I change my mind about the former idea, once I get to actually writing. In the second case, where I finish comes along as the journey progresses.

My favorite example of the latter, in my own experience, is from my best unpublishable novel. I had two possible conclusions in mind as I wrote, to the point that I began to rough out each possibility. I had some way to go to get things to either of those conclusions, and worked on finishing that stuff, when suddenly (yes, I know you all detest that word, but in this instance it fits, literally), the story was concluded. I recognized it the moment I hit that point, and it was a feeling both of surprise and great satisfaction. Neither of the two intended endings was either necessary or appropriate. I was done.

Some people who have read the manuscript haven't liked that ending, and have told me so, and why, and I have respected and appreciated those comments. I took them on board, and gave them considerable thought. And, ultimately, I still think my ending is most appropriate. It satisfies the story, if not every reader. I never would have got it if I'd been playing write-by-number from a detailed outline.

For my currently near-complete unpublishable novel, I have already written the concluding chapter. I'm currently quite happy with it. I need a major transitional event, to get there, and am having problems working that out. As a consequence, I might . . . might, mind you . . . scrap that conclusion in favor of something else. Point is, I'm open to doing that. Maybe some comet will arrive, unexpected, from the literary Oort Cloud, and alter my thinking. It's happened before. I'm open to it happening again.

But that is only possible because I wrote, not knowing what was ahead on that night highway, seeing just as far as the headlights allowed, watching for poorly-marked curves, oncoming traffic, moose emerging from the woods to cross the road.

I just wrote it.

caw
 

cmi0616

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Well, it can't hurt to write it can it? Because if anything, at least your thoughts and ideas are tangible, down on the paper, in solid form. From there you can see what's wrong with it an then how to go about fixing it.

I think the advice that should always be given, indisputably, is "just write." It's when the brainstorming process becomes an excuse for procrastination (which is an easy trap to fall into) that "just write it" seems like good advice. But if you don't write "it," be sure that you write something everyday. That's why I have a journal--for the days on which I don't feel like writing any fiction.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Well, it can't hurt to write it can it? Because if anything, at least your thoughts and ideas are tangible, down on the paper, in solid form. From there you can see what's wrong with it an then how to go about fixing it.

I think the advice that should always be given, indisputably, is "just write." It's when the brainstorming process becomes an excuse for procrastination (which is an easy trap to fall into) that "just write it" seems like good advice. But if you don't write "it," be sure that you write something everyday. That's why I have a journal--for the days on which I don't feel like writing any fiction.

Not everyone writes the same way. Not everyone has the same needs to improve their writing. Write something everyday works for some writers but not all. People differ in how they go about things.

And yes, it can hurt. There are people who can produce good work when they think things through but can't put two words down when they haven't. It's a mistake to think that one person's methods must work for another person. People need to work as they need to work and no advice is universal.

Blacbird is right that at some point one needs to write. But that doesn't mean that the solution now is always to write. It actually means the opposite. Knowing when to write is as much part of the skill as any other aspect of writing.

If you think it doesn't hurt to do it, think about someone who, if they thought it through more would produce good work, but pushed to write now, produces bilge and concludes that they can't write the story and gives up on it. That can and does hurt.
 

bearilou

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I suppose the phrase could mean different things to different people.

Exactly, which is why I have to agree with Hamilton.

Someone who is clearly dithering about their writing? Just write it works.

Someone who is having some issues with the craft itself or with trying to get through some problematic part? Just write it may or may not work, depending on who they are.

I think the problem is that too often 'just write it' is often offered too glibly to actually be useful in some instances and offered without taking into account that 'all writers are different', which is another thing tossed about.

There have been times when I was told 'just write it' and it was sound advice. I was dithering, unsure and thus procrastinating.

There have been other times when I have needed to talk things out to get them straight in my head before I put stuff down. Maybe I would have eventually gotten through it by 'just writing it' except that's not how my brain and creative process works. Talking it out, going at the problem from another angle can be just as productive for me. So 'just write it' when I was looking for help was actually the most useless (and frustrating) advice given to me in that instance.

Short answer: Sometimes Just Write It is completely wrong advice.

At different stages of work a story will need different things. Sometimes it needs to be written now, sometimes it needs research, sometimes it needs the writer to develop more skills or understanding.

To learn to write one must write. That does not mean that a particular story should be written right now.

It's taken me twenty years of writing, research, and thinking to be able to work on my WIP. Sometimes, Just Write It is absolutely wrong.

or...you know...what he said. :)

edit: In fact, I should just quote everything Richard has said in three pages because, yeah, what he said.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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If no one minds, I'd like to drop in a semi-concrete example from what I'm doing right now (I won't put in any text since I'm on second draft and no one but me should have to suffer through my first or second drafts).

Yesterday I thought I was ready to start rewriting a particular chapter. The opening scene basically works and probably needs clean up. But I didn't do it. It felt wrong to go ahead. So I didn't get any writing done yesterday.

I had also noted a couple of days ago that a couple of minor characters needed to be fleshed out as their actions and attitudes are major motivators for a major character who is central to the first scene of this chapter.

This morning I realized that I had a perfect opportunity to put a scene of them before the first scene of this chapter. The scene could easily fit the concept and purpose of the chapter. By the end of breakfast I had it fleshed out and I started writing immediately thereafter.

Had I stopped and dithered at this point, "Just Write It" would have been the correct advice because I was ready to write and knew what needed to be written.

This new first scene will flesh out and change some of the actions, motivations and descriptions of the old first scene.

Had I chosen to rewrite the old first scene instead of working out what needed to come before it, I would have wasted my writing time and mental effort when I needed to be working on something else. I might even have dug myself in deeper to the wrong direction for the scene and made it harder to figure out what should have been there.

In short, at any other point in this process, "Just Write It" would have been not only wrong advice, but bad advice.
 

Sam Argent

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If no one minds, I'd like to drop in a semi-concrete example from what I'm doing right now (I won't put in any text since I'm on second draft and no one but me should have to suffer through my first or second drafts).

Yesterday I thought I was ready to start rewriting a particular chapter. The opening scene basically works and probably needs clean up. But I didn't do it. It felt wrong to go ahead. So I didn't get any writing done yesterday.

I had also noted a couple of days ago that a couple of minor characters needed to be fleshed out as their actions and attitudes are major motivators for a major character who is central to the first scene of this chapter.

This morning I realized that I had a perfect opportunity to put a scene of them before the first scene of this chapter. The scene could easily fit the concept and purpose of the chapter. By the end of breakfast I had it fleshed out and I started writing immediately thereafter.

Had I stopped and dithered at this point, "Just Write It" would have been the correct advice because I was ready to write and knew what needed to be written.

This new first scene will flesh out and change some of the actions, motivations and descriptions of the old first scene.

Had I chosen to rewrite the old first scene instead of working out what needed to come before it, I would have wasted my writing time and mental effort when I needed to be working on something else. I might even have dug myself in deeper to the wrong direction for the scene and made it harder to figure out what should have been there.

In short, at any other point in this process, "Just Write It" would have been not only wrong advice, but bad advice.

I think most of us would know that you weren't procrastinating but thinking out a scene so "Just write it" wouldn't apply.

I have this huge fantasy story that I've been plotting out since high school. I tried writing it but couldn't figure out where I wanted the story to begin. No amount of plotting or outlining would help, but I knew that I still needed to write. I took a sliver of my universe and started another book. Working on it helped me learn about world building, magic systems, and writing with large casts. This is experience I wouldn't have gotten if I had spent all of my time creating the first story. There's nothing wrong with planning, but if it's not getting you anywhere after a couple years, maybe it's time to find another way.
 

bearilou

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I think most of us would know that you weren't procrastinating but thinking out a scene so "Just write it" wouldn't apply.

Yeahbut...if he had come to the forums to try to talk out his options, he still would have gotten a few comments that would have said 'Just write it'.

Now, Richard has experience as a writer and he's self-aware of his strengths and weaknesses so he would know how to take the advice given and apply it to his situation. Many writers aren't.

Again, for them 'just write it' may be what they need to hear, that it really is the best response to their procrastination, or maybe they need someone to bat around a few ideas first, see a perspective they hadn't considered prior, get that sorted and then apply 'just write it'. But unless the poster is very specific in what kind of help they're looking for and has gone on record previously as working one way or another creatively, perhaps 'just write it' is a bit premature as advice.

Sometimes, I get the impression that advice isn't given because it's sound advice for the situation, but they're saying it because they either don't have the patience to suss out what the real question being ask entails or they simply want to have 'provided assistance' without actually getting involved.

Sounds smart, pithy and helpful without actually being helpful.
 

shadowwalker

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I really can't think of an instance I've seen here where "Just write it" was given in lieu of 'real advice', or where it wasn't justified (bearing in mind I obviously haven't read every single comment in every single thread). Maybe someone could point out a couple instances where they've seen this happen (if someone already has I must have missed it).
 

bearilou

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I really can't think of an instance I've seen here where "Just write it" was given in lieu of 'real advice', or where it wasn't justified (bearing in mind I obviously haven't read every single comment in every single thread). Maybe someone could point out a couple instances where they've seen this happen (if someone already has I must have missed it).

I have. Not in recent days. And no one has said that every single comment has told the OP 'just write it'. Usually it's a mix. Some posters will say "hard to say, just write it and see what happens", other posters will try to provide experience or advice and end it with "but nothing will beat just sitting down and writing it", others still will give advice or opinions and not say it at all.

The advice and opinions are good, the advice and opinions and the final 'just write it' are good. But there have been some instances where 'just write it' has been said. I've even responded to a few by trying to temper that with 'sometimes it's not an all you gotta do is kind of situation'.

Has it been in the last day? Last week? Last month? It gets said a lot of the time although not necessarily all at once in the same thread unless it's pretty obvious it's a procrastination issue. Sometimes, as many of us have already said, it's the only really good response and those aren't the cases that at least I'm objecting to.

Do you really want me to comb back through all the threads I've read and maybe even responded to (because sometimes, all I can do is just sigh and close the thread since I really don't have the mental and emotional energy to talk about that again) to come up with a few instances of where it wasn't productive?
 

shadowwalker

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I'm just saying that it's all well and good to say "this is happening" - but a couple of examples would be better. I'm assuming something was said somewhere which prompted this whole discussion.
 

bearilou

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I'm just saying that it's all well and good to say "this is happening" - but a couple of examples would be better. I'm assuming something was said somewhere which prompted this whole discussion.

Well, it is easy to be lead to think this is happening OMG ALL THE TIME, when it really doesn't. And even in the threads where it gets said, not everyone is saying it (although I am reminded of a thread in the SFF section a while back where someone asked a question and pretty much every response was 'write it and see'. I also recall that it was warranted, as well), but even said once or twice...and then in thread after thread...it appears to be happening quite often.

And because I can't leave well enough alone:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262313

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262239

Two really good examples of being told 'just write it' but with a lot of experience, advice and commiseration mixed it to assist with the overwhelming advice of 'just write it'. But...there was a comment that said 'just write it' and nothing more.

As far as I'm concerned, these threads are far more helpful with the number of people who not only encourage the writer to keep going, they indulge in conversation, a give and take of ideas and suggestions. But still, tucked within are the comments of 'just write it' and offering nothing more in way of help. Several threads in a row and they start to pop out.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7873716#post7873716

A thread where 'just write it' was perhaps apropos and yet still many had something else to offer, other than just blithely throwing 'just write it' out there. And still...there it was...'just write it'.

In reading the responses, it seems pretty clear to me that the advice, when stated 'just write it', falls flat in the face of other comments which offer a little more in the way of engagement and, like I said above, tend to stick out.

and lastly, Richards thread from august where this very thing was discussed before. :ROFL:
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Just write CAN be a form of plotting. Writing out what you've got in your mind, even if it's abstract or incomplete can work wonders. So can free writing.

Ex:

I know my characters are in a junkyard. A junkyard. Why are they in a junkyard? I don't know. What's in a junkyard? Junk. what kind of junk? paper, old diapers, leftovers, cars, smashed computers, scavenging dogs. Dogs... maybe they can be chased by dogs. They're looking for something in the junk yard, but it's on the other side of a pack of scavenging dogs! Even worse the MC has an irrational fear of dogs.

etc, etc, etc.

Writing produces writing. Not writing produces nothing.
Yes, but is writing nonsense any better than writing nothing? There was a point where I tried the "write no matter what" thing. For a period of several months, maybe over a year actually, I thought by forcing myself to write every day at the same time I would improve and writing would become automatic. But as it turned out, forcing myself to write even when I had nothing to write, produced a binder full of nonsense. Just crap off the top of my head, like "Here I sit at my typewriter, hoping to think of a story. A fly has landed on the platten. Maybe I can hit him. 3$;&3?/! Nope. He got away."

So I no longer subscribe to the "just write no matter what" school.
 

shadowwalker

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So I no longer subscribe to the "just write no matter what" school.

But that's somewhat different from telling someone to just write when they've done all this planning, worrying, procrastinating, etc. "Write every day" is a method to develop discipline in writing; "just write" is telling people to shit or get off the pot.
 

shadowwalker

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but even said once or twice...and then in thread after thread...it appears to be happening quite often.

This is what I was getting at. In those links you gave (thank you btw), it was all that was really necessary - the additional comments were kind of icing on the cake. And they still boiled down to "Just write it.".
 

RichardGarfinkle

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In the examples Bearilou linked to, "just write it" is actually good advice. Any examples where it was bad advice?

Is there a way to answer this in the affirmative that does not violate RYFW? I don't see how to do this without violating that rule since any such thread posting will point to a member's advice and says that this person gave bad advice.
 

shadowwalker

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Is there a way to answer this in the affirmative that does not violate RYFW? I don't see how to do this without violating that rule since any such thread posting will point to a member's advice and says that this person gave bad advice.

People disagree with advice given by others on many threads. This would just be giving examples where you disagreed with this particular bit of advice. JMO
 

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Yes, but is writing nonsense any better than writing nothing? .


in a vacuum, I'd say yes, it is--presumably you're still working on, and learning, dialogue and punctuation and other niceties, honing your craft.....which again, in the "all things equal" vacuum, you aren't doing by watching tv.

Sometimes you're better off getting your ducks in a row. On one hand you could call that part of the writing, as doing is very different than asking here. On the other, even with that, at some point you shit or commit. And that's usually where people say to just write it. The entire thread is based on a false assumption the advice, ANY advice, is applicable in every single case, and I find it hard to imagine the poster did not have at least some inkling of this.

anyway, carry on....
 

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I think I've figured out my issue with 'just write' being advised to readily:

You can't "just write" until you've made a decision about what to write, even if it's just the next sentence.

On one extreme, complete pansters make decisions about what to write sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, scene by scene.

On the other extreme, complete plotters make as many decisions as possible before they start writing. When they do start writing, they're only making small scale decisions, like how to phrase dialogue or describe specific actions.

When a writer makes the wrong decisions on their first draft, which is inevitable, they have to figure out what the mistakes were and fix them. The more bad decisions in the first draft, the more rewriting.

I think those who say "just write" is a valid solution for everyone aren't considering that the decisions a writer is struggling with still have to be made. In my experience, when you're forcing yourself to "just write", you're making decisions as fast as possible so you can keep writing.

Sometimes that's exactly what needed to happen. Other times, the stress a writer felt about a decision was justified, and they may have caused significant problems by choosing too quickly.

People like me simply can't handle writing and making big decisions about what to write at the same time. Sure, I can do it if I absolutely have to. But every panster who insists that they lose interest in a story if they outline it could probably write that way if they absolutely had to.

James D. Macdonald said:
In the examples Bearilou linked to, "just write it" is actually good advice. Any examples where it was bad advice?
Good advice for a plotter? Unlikely.

The OP in one thread was worried about their ability to handle a complex three part story. They were in the process of making an outline, which would be particularly useful because there were going to be overlapping timelines. There are plenty of ways to give advice on the OP's problem without saying, "Just start writing, even if you haven't finished your outline."

The other OP, who didn't know what to do with their inciting incident, looked like they needed to learn how to brainstorm. Later in the thread they realized they needed to write down everything they knew about the story already, and work from there, which is often how brainstorming ends up starting.

In either case, if those OPs worked best with a complete outline and they hadn't finished one, "just write" would have been useless advice. Was that necessarily the case? I don't know. But you don't know either.

Telling a plotter to "just write" before they're done with a plot outline isn't just useless advice; it can be harmful advice. You can't just make the assumption that everyone's process is the same as your own, and anyone putting off writing is doing it for no good reason.
 

quicklime

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Is there a way to answer this in the affirmative that does not violate RYFW? I don't see how to do this without violating that rule since any such thread posting will point to a member's advice and says that this person gave bad advice.


spend a bit of time in QLH, or grammar and punctuation. Plenty of arguing and suggestions one poster is wrong, which doesn't in itself violate the rule.
 

quicklime

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Good advice for a plotter? Unlikely.

.


you toss that around like the group is a monolith; I would bet you at least a third of the folks saying "just write it" do in fact consider themselves plotters.

Anyone who's in this thread and guilty of suggesting to just write it, who's a plotter themselves, care to raise a hand?
 
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