Games Of Thrones More Brutally Realistic Than Most Historical Novels?

The current documentary series Britain's Bloodiest Dynasty seems to be continuing the thread of almost pornographic violence to hold the viewers attention. That said it is a fascinating look at the Plantagenet kings

Martin has a reputation for being harsh only because he kills off characters his readers know and love. My impression is that the world itself is much kinder than medieval Europe, largely because it's a pretty rational world. Characters act ruthlessly, but as a reader, you can still kind of identify with them.

Medieval Europe was a truly dark and brutal place, full of torture, disease, squalor, and completely irrational despots. Some historical novels tend to sugar coat that, but some don't. The good ones don't.

The Raen said:

Martin has a reputation for being harsh only because he kills off characters his readers know and love. My impression is that the world itself is much kinder than medieval Europe, largely because it's a pretty rational world. Characters act ruthlessly, but as a reader, you can still kind of identify with them.

Medieval Europe was a truly dark and brutal place, full of torture, disease, squalor, and completely irrational despots. Some historical novels tend to sugar coat that, but some don't. The good ones don't.

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I completely disagree. Medieval Europe was not universally a dark and brutal place, and everyone who lived then wasn't irrational. And a good historical novel will make the reader identify with the characters.

The Raen said:

Martin has a reputation for being harsh only because he kills off characters his readers know and love. My impression is that the world itself is much kinder than medieval Europe, largely because it's a pretty rational world. Characters act ruthlessly, but as a reader, you can still kind of identify with them.

Medieval Europe was a truly dark and brutal place, full of torture, disease, squalor, and completely irrational despots. Some historical novels tend to sugar coat that, but some don't. The good ones don't.

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I don't think I understand this. How is Martin's world more "rational" than the real Middle Ages? And what do you mean by saying medieval rulers were "completely irrational"?

I suspect that you feel more comfortable in Martin's world because he is essentially a 21st century American and his world is essentially a 21st century American world, albeit with dragons. The real Middle Ages, OTTH, was populated by, well, medieval people. They were not irrational, but they had different belief systems and references. A good novel obviously brings that to life in a believable way, but in no way was the Middle Ages a uniformly dark place populated by people any more "irrational" than we are today. And like Mayqueen says, a good novel will make you identify with characters even if they are slightly different from yourself. Like it's been said "the past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." For me, that is exactly what attracts me to hist fic (and fantasy). I want to visit a foreign country.

With that said, when I read Martin's books (like I said, more than ten years ago so cut me some slack for not being more specific) his world didn't make sense to me in terms of metrology, economics, agricultural production, patterns of urbanisation and other boring stuff that the real world has to deal with. I'm willing to overlook that in the interest of a good story and most people probably don't care, but overall, "rational" isn't the first word I'd use to describe Martin's world.

The Raen said:

Martin has a reputation for being harsh only because he kills off characters his readers know and love. My impression is that the world itself is much kinder than medieval Europe, largely because it's a pretty rational world. Characters act ruthlessly, but as a reader, you can still kind of identify with them.

Medieval Europe was a truly dark and brutal place, full of torture, disease, squalor, and completely irrational despots.

Click to expand...

And... Martin's world is not dark and brutal, or full of torture, disease, squalor, and irrational despots?

I mean, maybe some things are different in the books than in the show, but they put a woman in a ring with a bear. Joffrey forced a prostitute to beat a woman to death, then shot her with a crossbow. Daenrys locked two people in an airless vault to die. One guy had molten gold poured on his head. There are multiple characters who have experienced genital mutilation.

EDIT: that's not even half of it! A girl gets to see her father beheaded, and she's forced to look at the corpse. She's nearly gang-raped, and her father's murderer threatens to rape her as well. A guy died by having his eyes pushed into his brain. A hundred children were crucified to point the way to a city. There is a guy who murders babies and rapes his own daughters to get more babies to kill or rape. The books are about war, so hundreds of people are dying. A decade-long winter is coming, so there's going to be widespread famine soon.

I'm loving the posts in this thread. I totally agree with the sentiment that George R.R. is creating "soft-porn" for the masses.

There's something incredibly disingenuous about GOT. Martin is showing how "brutal things really were" but neglects to show that back then people still had moral compasses. People cared about each other. Rulers may have been ruthless, but they also had common sense.

*spoiler alert*
His portrayal of the Starks paints them as naive idiots who get chewed up by their much more savvy opponents. Every time he kills a Stark I can hear George giggling, "You see those with virtue are too naive to play the game properly. They all die in the end! Yes they do! All die! Tee-hee-hee!"

Give me a break George.

His characters are overdrawn, and oversimplified because he clearly has an axe to grind.

His work doesn't elevate. It will not stand the test of time.

How is Martin showing 'how brutal things really were' when he writes fantasy?

In case some people are unclear on this point, GoT is about people who never existed doing things that never happened in a place that never was. How can this be compared with history (however imperfectly recorded)?

Flicka said:

I suspect that you feel more comfortable in Martin's world because he is essentially a 21st century American and his world is essentially a 21st century American world, albeit with dragons. The real Middle Ages, OTTH, was populated by, well, medieval people. They were not irrational, but they had different belief systems and references. A good novel obviously brings that to life in a believable way, but in no way was the Middle Ages a uniformly dark place populated by people any more "irrational" than we are today. And like Mayqueen says, a good novel will make you identify with characters even if they are slightly different from yourself. Like it's been said "the past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." For me, that is exactly what attracts me to hist fic (and fantasy). I want to visit a foreign country.

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This!

The list of things that everyone thinks they know about the middle ages is nearly endless.

It's interesting that many of the things we think of as medieval (including many infamous torture implements) weren't widespread, or even invented in some cases, until the Early Modern era or later.

And of course, the "middle ages" lasted 1000 years (in Europe), and they were hardly a static time. There were many changes and inventions, and even with the unifying influence of the Catholic Church, there were differences between different parts of the continent.

I like ASoIaF, but it's silly to think that it (let alone some of the other Grindark that's floating around) is any more accurate a portrayal of the middle ages than fantasy that lies at the High Fantasy end of the distribution (that's heavily focused on Chivalry, Noble rulers, lovely princesses, and shining castles with a fireplace in each room).

Roxxsmom said:

(let alone some of the other Grindark that's floating around)

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Grindark? Is that anything like this?

What about crazy chicks cutting each other's babies out of their wombs and then jumping off a cliff with them in Spartacus?

Hey; I just finished reading the latest of GM's ASOIAF books which took me thrice than the past four. I started loving this guy but my opinion that somewhere in his third third book he lost his way and has only been able to fill pages with senseless killings, plots and characters.

Really; when you read six hundred pages of a SECONDARY character that does not play any whatsoever part on the plot and then she's brutally killed by being eaten alive; you start thinking WTF