Fact vs. fiction

Flicka said:

Did Caravaggio seriously think this is exactly how the scene in Getsemane looked? Of course not. I don't think he was even trying to recreate how it might "really" have looked, or that he thought "this is how Jesus is bound to have looked". He was trying to tell the story in the most effective way he could. With his highly realistic painting, he was trying to drag you into the story and create a feeling of verisimilitude. He didn't say "oh, but this may not be at all how it looked really, so I don't need to get the details of the light glinting off the armour right." He wanted it to look realistic to the point of you feeling you were standing there with them, because that was how he could engage the onlooker and most effectively tell his story. And he kept the details from the sources accurate - it was night; there were disciples and soldiers; Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss etc... He just fleshed out the bare bones with a lot of imaginary details. And he did it in order to tell a story about betrayal and fear and anger and sacrifice and suffering that is relevant outside the historical context of the Jesus myth and probably contains his own thoughts and feelings and experiences as much the Biblical story.

Isn't that really pretty similar to what we do and why we care about getting the details right although we know we are not telling the "real" story? It gave me some perspective, anyway.

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You see, my big issue with the painting is that it has no real interest in historical accuracy. It is more concerned with the time at which it was painted, from the Jews being given a Renaissance makeover to the medieval armour of men who are supposed to be Roman soldiers (my theologian-student sister has just pointed out the armour is in fact Spanish). It says more about 16th century Italy than 1st century Judaea (as well as a Catholic response to the Reformation).

There may be a human truth in (the very theatrical) painting, but no historical truth there at all. What I find most interesting is the story behind the painting, that the Catholic church was attempting halt the Protestant Reformation through religious art.

Flicka said:

I didn't mean that it was a historical painting, I meant it was an example of trying to retell a story and worrying about realism in the details, while being very aware that it is a fictional depiction.

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I don't think the intent behind pseudo-historical religious paintings like this is the same as the historical novelist's intent, at least not mine. I can't separate the 'worrying about realism in the details' from historical accuracy - to me, they are one and the same thing. Regardless of whether it is a fictional depiction or not, it has to look and feel of the time I'm trying to depict. Carravagio had no interest whatsoever in doing that. Understanding the story within its own historical context wasn't the purpose of the painting, but rather to make it resonate with his modern audience. There are novels that do that now, by taking a mythological subject and updating it to modern day setting (off the top of my head, Gods Behaving Badly), but that's a different genre to historical fiction. So no, I'm not trying to create a fictional narrative that is real and resonates with my modern readership by disregarding historical accuracy. I'm trying to create a fictional narrative that is real and vivid BECAUSE it's authentic and accurate - at least to the best of my knowledge.

I haven't been here for a while, but I noticed this thread and was interested. It's much more civilised than the wretched thread about 'Historical Inaccuracies' on Goodreads and seems saner than most of these discussions. Thanks!

On Saturday I'm actually going to a meeting of the Historical Novel Society's London Chapter (sounds very grand but is actually half a dozen people chatting in a pub) where they are talking about researching historical novels. I'm sure a lot of this will come up. I wrote a blog post to sort of prepare for it. It's at http://thewhiterajah.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/research.html if you're interested. It says much what most people are saying here, though.

Tom from UK said:

I haven't been here for a while, but I noticed this thread and was interested. It's much more civilised than the wretched thread about 'Historical Inaccuracies' on Goodreads and seems saner than most of these discussions. Thanks!

On Saturday I'm actually going to a meeting of the Historical Novel Society's London Chapter (sounds very grand but is actually half a dozen people chatting in a pub) where they are talking about researching historical novels. I'm sure a lot of this will come up. I wrote a blog post to sort of prepare for it. It's at http://thewhiterajah.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/research.html if you're interested. It says much what most people are saying here, though.

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The whole question of what the world was like around 1800 seems increasingly problematic to me. I find it is best to start from the position that I have NO IDEA and then for example look into what kind of tip would go to stable boys. A six-pence would be a big tip in say 1794 in an swanky English provincial town like say Tunbridge Wells, but still within the realm of possibility. AND there were a lot of six-pence in circulation. But were stable boys tipped on a regular basis? I HAVE NO IDEA.

With military uniforms in the period -- I tend to offer excuses for each one that comes up if I am forced to describe one in any detail.

Maxx said:

The whole question of what the world was like around 1800 seems increasingly problematic to me. I find it is best to start from the position that I have NO IDEA and then for example look into what kind of tip would go to stable boys. A six-pence would be a big tip in say 1794 in an swanky English provincial town like say Tunbridge Wells, but still within the realm of possibility. AND there were a lot of six-pence in circulation. But were stable boys tipped on a regular basis? I HAVE NO IDEA.

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I'm gonna say, based on no historical research whatsoever, but merely retrospectively extrapolated from the fact that you're talking about England, and we don't tend to tip as a matter of course like you do in the States...

I doubt very much that stable boys would have been tipped at all, let alone for simply DOING THEIR DAMN JOB. If they do it well, you give them a nod of thanks - if you even pay any notice to them. If they don't do it well... you just give them a cuff round the ear.

This tipping business was really rather foreign to us Brits until very recently...and still is, to be honest.

Instead of creating another thread, I decided I would ask my own Fact v Fiction question here. Stick with me here, it gets kinda muddy!

I am trying to fit a fictional character into a historical timeline. The ages don't 100% match up and it is bugging me.

Essentially, I created a fictional character who gets swept up in the Third Servile War in 73BC. He is using Spartacus' rebellion as a means to flee the Roman Empire.

Besides the fact that being a slave sucks, I wanted to give him a more pressing conflict that forced him to get out.

I did some research of various events around this time period and came across a guy named Vercingetorix who united the tribes of Ancient Gaul in 53BC and rebelled against Caesar. Only his father is known, mother and any siblings are unknown. In my book, Vercingetorix would be 9 years old. Perfect.

Vercingetorix's father was killed by his own nobles for his aspirations of becoming a king. Perfect.

So my thought was Protagonist ends up in Rome and is sentenced to fighting as a gladiator for a crime he didn't commit. While in this gladiator school, he finds out that his father has been murdered by his own nobles, so Protagonist worries for little brother's (Vercingetorix) life too. That is why he must immediately leave.

But the ages are a little off. In 73BC when all this starts, Vercingetorix is 9. His father is 29. There is no way I can have a fictional adult brother older than Vercingetorix since his father was 19 or 20 when he was born.

Also, his father's death. I have found a few resources with conflicting info. I found a history book that says he died ~60BC. 13 years after my book would take place. A couple other resources I have found list his death around 53BC. 20 years after my book would take place.

I don't want to take liberties with these exact dates & ages just to fit my story. But I feel if my protagonist was just a cousin or a family friend- the urgency wouldn't be there.

I have been toying around with the idea of making my Protagonist a brother to Vercingetorix' father (he did have one that is known, and he was one of the nobles that killed him) which would solve the age issues. It would introduce a possibly interesting dynamic of a third fictional brother, and how he reacts to one of his brothers killing the other.. but that doesn't answer my timeline of when his father was killed.

How would you feel about fudging the exact date of this guys death for the sake of telling a story? Like I said- the date of his death is already conflicting out there but deep down inside of me, I feel some guilt about doing so by fictionalizing that it happened in 73BC vs 60BC or 53BC based one which source you go by.

Even if there was tipping, they probably had a different name for it. Probably something like "Fizzlebobbing" or "Larkynoodling" or some such nonsense.

Not as colorful as I'd hoped

One thing I noticed (apropos of nothing): in the early days of telephones people (in the US at least) used the phrase "at the phone" instead of "on the phone." Almost like they thought of the phone as another portal into their home. At the door, at the window, at the phone, etc.

Flicka said:

You wouldn't necessarily "tip" as you went, but sometimes, instead, leave a gratuity at the end of your stay.[...]

An example: when Sir Edward Harley stayed at Stoke Edith in Hertfordshire in 1697, his servant recorded 2s 6d each to the butler, coachman, and a chambermaid, 2s 2d to the cook and, to a groom, 3s 6d (note that the groom actually got the biggest sum). I don't have the source here, but I remember that in the Duke of Buckingham's accounts from the 1620s, there are lists of handouts to grooms, maids, cooks, waiters, ferrymen, washerwomen, water carriers etc. Generally, the grander the person you were or the house you visited was, the bigger the tips were expected to be.

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Ah, this makes much more sense. It just didn't sit right with me, the idea of a noble tossing a coin to a servant, because it seemed... somewhat uncouth. But leaving a gratuity with your host at the end of your stay seems a far more genteel way to show your generosity.

You're totally right tho, Flicka - gut instincts are not to be trusted. Reading widely about your period - and contemporary literature from it - is the only way to become really familiar with the cultural detail.

Sword&Shield said:

But the ages are a little off. In 73BC when all this starts, Vercingetorix is 9. His father is 29. There is no way I can have a fictional adult brother older than Vercingetorix since his father was 19 or 20 when he was born.

Also, his father's death. I have found a few resources with conflicting info. I found a history book that says he died ~60BC. 13 years after my book would take place. A couple other resources I have found list his death around 53BC. 20 years after my book would take place.

I don't want to take liberties with these exact dates & ages just to fit my story. But I feel if my protagonist was just a cousin or a family friend- the urgency wouldn't be there.

I have been toying around with the idea of making my Protagonist a brother to Vercingetorix' father (he did have one that is known, and he was one of the nobles that killed him) which would solve the age issues. It would introduce a possibly interesting dynamic of a third fictional brother, and how he reacts to one of his brothers killing the other.. but that doesn't answer my timeline of when his father was killed.

How would you feel about fudging the exact date of this guys death for the sake of telling a story? Like I said- the date of his death is already conflicting out there but deep down inside of me, I feel some guilt about doing so by fictionalizing that it happened in 73BC vs 60BC or 53BC based one which source you go by.

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My immediate thought is to have your character related to V's mother. Her brother would want to protect her as well as her children. Or, he could have been her lover....

CWatts said:

My immediate thought is to have your character related to V's mother. Her brother would want to protect her as well as her children. Or, he could have been her lover....

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Oh, also really good ideas.

Thank you

Re tips: actually the five pence was thrown to a beggar. What freaked me was not that he threw the coins to beggar, but that you wouldn't throw five pence. Five pennies possibly (though that seems both very generous and an odd amount to choose). Five pence, I'm pretty sure, got in there because nowadays we have a coin called 'five pence' that one might throw to a beggar, but which didn't exist until the mid-twentieth century.

Generally, street people were tipped. Crossing sweepers, who swept the filth out of your way as you crossed the street, lived off tips and I think it was common to tip someone to hold your horse or perform other small services in the street.

When I was a child, station porters were tipped. I imagine they were in Victorian times, but I'd check before putting it in a book.

It may vary from period to period, but it has long been common to tip staff if you were a guest in someone else's household. You tipped your own staff with a box on Boxing Day.

The US custom, which English people are often uncomfortable with, is the idea that you tip people for just doing their job. Some of us think that their employers should pay them properly in the first place.

Tom from UK said:

The US custom, which English people are often uncomfortable with, is the idea that you tip people for just doing their job. Some of us think that their employers should pay them properly in the first place.

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Yes, exactly. I was always brought up with the principle that you tip someone when they've earned extra recognition and thanks for doing something particularly well, or that they didn't have to do but went out of their way for you, not just because they expect it as a matter of course. My dad once tipped the AA man who came to change my tyre at 9pm on Christmas Eve, in -4 degrees and 2 feet of snow. Yes, it was his job, but he was just really helpful, sympathetic and quick about it, trying his best to get us home, when he could have been a right miserable bugger to be working, lol.

Your protag might also be Vercingetorix's half-brother, which would make the age thing go away if their dad lost his V-card at a fairly early age.

Deb Kinnard said:

Your protag might also be Vercingetorix's half-brother, which would make the age thing go away if their dad lost his V-card at a fairly early age.

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That is also a good idea.

Both have kind of got my creative juices flowing ha. Some interesting dynamics to consider that also open up some different ideas and maybe help reinforce a couple themes I have been playing with.

So, as if it wasn't difficult enough to write historical fiction, what about when your period is still a political football?

The American Civil War, for instance...
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...glects_emancipation_our_commemoration_of.html

I've tried to counter the myths in my (sadly still unfinished) Reconstruction novel, which focuses on an interracial couple. They are loosely based on real people I discovered through research, though I took quite a bit of artistic license filling in their scant paper trail. I made some pretty big changes too - the 25-year age difference is down to about 15 years (early 20s/late 30s), and I decided she "hired out" to him instead of him owning her. Both make it easier to see the relationship becoming consensual. The real couple stayed together long after emancipation, until his death in the 1890s. He left all his property to her and their eight (!) children. Still, I wonder how much I might be distorting their situation in the name of a good story?

Plus there is the fact of a born & bred Southerner taking on the "Yankee" perspective of "tha wa-ah"....

Now my current 1870s WIP I am also grappling with the labor movement and a character's backstory with the Paris Commune, which is apparently still a touchy subject also. Historians still can't agree on how many people died during Bloody Week (as if it being 10,000 instead of 20,000 makes it that much better....?).

It's the details that trip me up, as mentioned earlier - the amount of vail (I came across that same article in my researches!) and if to tip at all.

Or... what vegetables might be available in County Donegal in 1792 to the peasantry? What sort of flowers might be blooming? What would a local herbwoman put in her love posset? What do they call doctors?

Lots of details.... I try to get them all right, but I will invariably get something wrong, I'm sure.

I don't really understand the point of the debate in The Guardian. Of course historical fiction is not secondary to history, just like history is not secondary to historical fiction. It's comparing apples to oranges. Oh, let me grab, say, Huizinga's Autumn of the Middle Ages and go: "Dude, you suck. You have no plot, you can't focus on your characters, and your book is basically one big info dump."

Personally I think a lot of historians envy historical novelists because artists can make history come alive in ways historians can't. But I can also see why historians get annoyed at how casually a lot of artists mess with the facts. If you've spent your life studying those facts they're important to you and you don't like seeing them messed with by a "civilian".

A good analogy might be the forensic artists who reconstruct a face from a skull. The skeletal remains are the actual fact, and there's a certain methodology to adding in the layers of clay flesh but you still have to make a guess at some things like eye and hair color, but in the end you have what looks like a living person rather than a long-dead corpse.