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CrastersBabies

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This really is a literary criticism argument here. To be blunt, art does not exist in a vacuum. You might create what you consider a multidimensional piece with strong themes and religious subtext, but once you have published a piece, once it's out in the world, on the shelves, you have ZERO control over how someone interprets it.

Someone may pick up on all of your hard work. Others will see something else. It really is the beauty of literature. Author's intention doesn't matter when it comes to theme and subtext. Unless that author plans on going to every single reader's house to make sure they understand what the subtext is and how it was meant to be taken, then, feh... You just have to accept the notion that people will see in your work what they want to see.

And Sometimes, a red wheelbarrow is just a red wheelbarrow.
 

Lillith1991

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Everyone makes assumptions -- they aren't evil. They just are not facts and should not be presented as such


To you maybe not. To others, there there are plenty of heteronormative conclusions to be had. Where you stand probably depends on your perspective.

That does not mean other's perspectives are wrong. They just are not yours.


And some readers will ardently defend their view of a subtext the author never inserted

Unless the author explicitly states it, you can never know who is right

Sure, but I'm not one to defend completely non-existent subtext. Not when it comes to a fictional pairing, and there are actual academic papers which examine the gay subtext in the show both for and against. I've read some, though I probably couldn't find them now. And there were certainly some things that gave people not on the side of Kirk/Spock a hard time when it came to explaining them.
 

Mr Flibble

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And some readers will ardently defend their view of a subtext the author never inserted

It's not non existent to your reading

That doesn't mean the author put it in on purpose. To the author, or another reader, it may well be non existent

Subjective things are subjective
 
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Lillith1991

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It's not non existent to your reading

That doesn't mean the author put it in on purpose. To the author, or another reader, it may well be non existent

Subjective things are subjective

Well, this subjective thing has academic papers in which some of the subjective subtext can't be explained away despite the person not being a fan of the pairing. Intentional? Maybe not, we don't know one way or another. Either way I'm still waiting for a non-M/M way to explain to the damn backrub scene which doesn't amount to, "I give my friends back rubs all the time and it doesn't mean anything." Something that uses the logic of someone who supports the pairing to discount it, because otherwise it's apples and oranges.
 

Mr Flibble

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Well, this subjective thing has academic papers in which some of the subjective subtext can't be explained away despite the person not being a fan of the pairing.

I've seen many discussions (academic or otherwose) that explain it very well without seeing what you see. I do not claim their opinions are fact

I've also seen academic papers declaring things that have been disproved a short order


Opinion is not fact, even if an academic writes a paper on a subjective topic

Academics are people too

And subjective is still subjective and not fact
 

Lillith1991

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I've seen many discussions (academic or otherwose) that explain it very well without seeing what you see. I do not claim their opinions are fact

I've also seen academic papers declaring things that have been disproved a short order


Opinion is not fact, even if an academic writes a paper on a subjective topic

Academics are people too

And subjective is still subjective and not fact

And I've likely read the same discussions. But and this is a really big but, they tend to be apples and oranges. What they think is being said by K/S fans is what is discussed instead of what is actually being said. I've never run into a fan of the ship no matter how rabid, who denied friends can give each other back rubs without it meaning anything. The question for shippers isn't, "Do friend's give each other back rubs?" It is, "Does one completely heterosexual friend fake back pain to obtain said back rub from his male friend?" Which is why I'm still waiting for a non-queer explanation that doesn't focus on how it can't be subtext because they're friends and guys, but instead how they aren't attracked to each other. It's the they got to either be straight or gay mentality commom even to fans on the opposite side of the spectrum, which I don't subscribe to.
 

CrastersBabies

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Doesn't matter if there's a non-queer explanation. As long as the person making X_claim has believable proof to back it up. I imagine both sides do.
 

Lillith1991

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Doesn't matter if there's a non-queer explanation. As long as the person making X_claim has believable proof to back it up. I imagine both sides do.

Very true, which is why I don't accept "I give my friends back rubs and I'm not gay" as a valid answer. It's not a believable reason to dismiss it. There's an inherent doublestandard in that type of stuff.
 

CrastersBabies

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I give my gal pals backrubs all the time, but males maybe not? There seems to be some thing between hetero men and not doing that.

I don't know how far back fanfiction of "subtexting" of Star Trek goes (was the show airing at the time?). Because I almost would wonder if they were fan-servicing a bit.
 

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I give my gal pals backrubs all the time, but males maybe not? There seems to be some thing between hetero men and not doing that.

I don't know how far back fanfiction of "subtexting" of Star Trek goes (was the show airing at the time?). Because I almost would wonder if they were fan-servicing a bit.

There's been Kirk/Spock fans since the show first aired in the 60s. I give all my friends back rubs, male or female. A lot of them are also LGBT and some are straight, but that doesn't mean I'm Bi. I don't fake back pain to get backrubs nor do they fake pain for backrubs from me however.
 
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VeryBigBeard

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Any subtext in my stories occurs only at the micro level, and only in dialogue (or in anything that could be considered dialogue). The desire to convey a theme or message doesn't exist in me.

I used to think this about myself for awhile, then I took an English class. It's not that I entirely disagree--I like to think I'm in control of my subtext if there is any; I know most of what I'm saying, but not always all of it. I dread the day I have to explain something I've written to a class and someone goes, "but in chapter 34...." Uh... yeah. Yeah, that.

It's the reader's right to do that, I think. It's my right to laugh at what they come up with when I'm in private.

This really is a literary criticism argument here. To be blunt, art does not exist in a vacuum. You might create what you consider a multidimensional piece with strong themes and religious subtext, but once you have published a piece, once it's out in the world, on the shelves, you have ZERO control over how someone interprets it.

Someone may pick up on all of your hard work. Others will see something else. It really is the beauty of literature. Author's intention doesn't matter when it comes to theme and subtext. Unless that author plans on going to every single reader's house to make sure they understand what the subtext is and how it was meant to be taken, then, feh... You just have to accept the notion that people will see in your work what they want to see.

And Sometimes, a red wheelbarrow is just a red wheelbarrow.

This is a really good post.

I still get a little uncomfortable creatively in discussions of literary criticism because it very, very often goes beyond what I thought and what I thought the author thought. Betas of mine who tend more towards the analytical or academic side pick up stuff I didn't intend all the time. I use those betas to do an extra check to see what I've missed. I also tend to not be aware of my subtext until I revise, at which point I spend 3-5 drafts on that alone just to get the theme, motivation, symbolism, etc. I think giving nuance to theme and tone is a huge part of why stories get people invested. Obviously to each writer his or her own. When I do engage in literary discussions (which are so much fun) I try to stay away from "the author intended X or Y" because it's often not true. On the flipside, I think in order to write effectively you have to be a little wobbly on your own work and part of the reason we have academic criticism is to show us how works of art and entertainment fit into the social consciousness.

Yay for this discussion. It makes me happy.
 

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You can't control readers. I once had a reader assume instantly that my novel was about gay males simply because I started with an interaction and conversation between two young men. She got really upset when the rest of the story didn't go that way. She had inserted her own subtest; nothing I could do about that.

caw
 

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The existence of subtext does not equal the author intending that subtext (It may, it may not. you cannot say for sure unless the author says so)

And I would add that if the author didn't intend a subtext or acknowledge it, then any perceived subtext exists purely in the mind of the reader, rather than objectively in the story.

As I said upthread, readers carry their own baggage and perceptions into the story. That's their right and privilege. The author can't control it or prevent it. But as you said upthread, subjective is subjective.
 
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Cathy C

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Something I've always wondered is whether subtext can exist when it's not intended. As stated above about backrubs, if in a story neither the backrub giver or recipient (and therefore the author writing it) intend subtext but a third party reader observes what they believe to be subtext, does it exist? A woman with an eyelash making her blink doesn't intend to wink at a man on the street and the man doesn't notice it or think it's a wink, is it subtext if only an observer thinks so?
 

VeryBigBeard

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I would say yes, subtext can exist even if not intended. It exists in the reading of a work and if it can be backed up with evidence then it's a legit reading. The trickier part is if an author comes out and says it wasn't intended. How far does authorial control extend?

I may be biased here. I'm the son of two English professors, so I understand and engage in criticism and debate of this kind daily with family. Like I said above, I find it awkward sometimes. That said, I've also read some fine essays discussing works subtextually where it's obvious the author wasn't aware of an issue but it really does need to be discussed. This is especially common with issues of privilege, where an author might be blind to tropes that are exploitative. Happens all the time in games, where writers and designers indulge in Male Gaze without even really realizing how offensive that is to their players. FILMCRITHULK also has some great deconstructions of Hollywood films and how they're created. One of my favourite poets, John Donne, can be debated in terms of when he's satirizing the sex and when he's just indulging in it. Analysis doesn't have to be done from an assumptive position. If it's based in evidence it can lend a lot of information and valuable discussion to a culture. My view has always been that if I can contribute to that by writing an awesome story, all the better, even if I don't always agree.
 

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Something I've always wondered is whether subtext can exist when it's not intended. As stated above about backrubs, if in a story neither the backrub giver or recipient (and therefore the author writing it) intend subtext but a third party reader observes what they believe to be subtext, does it exist?

Only in the eyes of that reader. If the author didn't intend it or allow it, it's not actually there.

I would say yes, subtext can exist even if not intended. It exists in the reading of a work and if it can be backed up with evidence then it's a legit reading. The trickier part is if an author comes out and says it wasn't intended. How far does authorial control extend?

Authors can't control what readers take away from the text (or add to it), but just because readers think they see a subtext, it doesn't mean that subtext exists in the original material. It's a construct laid on the book by its reader(s). It may appear to be a very sound construct, but if the author says it's not there, then that's the final word, so far as I'm concerned.
 
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CrastersBabies

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Something I've always wondered is whether subtext can exist when it's not intended. As stated above about backrubs, if in a story neither the backrub giver or recipient (and therefore the author writing it) intend subtext but a third party reader observes what they believe to be subtext, does it exist? A woman with an eyelash making her blink doesn't intend to wink at a man on the street and the man doesn't notice it or think it's a wink, is it subtext if only an observer thinks so?

I think it's possible, yes. But I'm a Jungian at heart, so in my opinion, the subconscious will always come through in your writing. :)
 

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I wish I could do subtext. People like Kubrick & Lean do it so effortlessly, it's almost annoying. It would honestly help a lot of scenes. Like, one in particular where I attempted to cover up addressing the cause of a situation by abruptly switching point of view to a person with less information on what was happening...

Let's just say, that one may need some rewrites...:e2paperba
 

Lillith1991

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Something I've always wondered is whether subtext can exist when it's not intended. As stated above about backrubs, if in a story neither the backrub giver or recipient (and therefore the author writing it) intend subtext but a third party reader observes what they believe to be subtext, does it exist? A woman with an eyelash making her blink doesn't intend to wink at a man on the street and the man doesn't notice it or think it's a wink, is it subtext if only an observer thinks so?

I honestly think it that stories are made in part by who is observing them, they don't exist in a vaccum. The writer doesn't get to say theres only one way to view the material. Therefore subtext certainly can be there even if the writer didn't intentionally write it in. Like with the backpain/backrub example, people who are fans of the Kirk/Spock pairing percieve Kirk as having faked the backpain. The crux being the pain wasn't real because of the timing of it and Kirk's reaction to finding out it wasn't Spock giving the backrub. I suspect if we're to ever settle the backrub scene dispute completely, we'll need to find out if the pain was genuine in the context of the scene or not as that's where all the percieved subtext/lack of subtext comes from.
 
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Subtext is a literary term of art, and as concept, grew out of critical theories developed in the 1980s, specifically reader response criticism and early "close reading" theories.

It's a term that has increasingly moved to common parlance, but it is frequently not used in a universally agreed upon fashion. Here's the American Heritage Dictionary entry for subtext:

AHD said:
1. An implicit meaning or theme of a literary text.
2. The underlying personality of a dramatic character as implied or indicated by a script or text and interpreted by an actor in performance.

Subtext is something that happens between the text and the reader. It should not be confused with the intention of the writer (see Wimsatt and Beardley's the Intentional Fallacy), but that does not mean that the writer did not create the subtext, nor does the existence of subtext mean that the writer is writing about him or herself.

Subtext is derived or arises from the text itself.

All texts are constructs, and they are completed or freed when they are read. The reader engages with the text to create meaning, but the meaning is derived from the author's words. Subtext lies between the lines, and is derive from metaphor and implication created by the writer.

As an example of subtext here's John Donne's poem The Flea.

The poem sets up a scene wherein a man discusses a flea who bit first him, and then a woman:

Donne's The Flea said:
Mark but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deniest me is;
It sucked me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea our two bloods mingled be;
Thou know’st that this cannot be said
A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead,
Yet this enjoys before it woo,
And pampered swells with one blood made of two,
And this, alas, is more than we would do.

The flea sucked blood first from the man, and then the woman, and grew swollen from the blood.

The swollen flea is a metaphor or pregnancy, "swells with one blood made of two," a pregnancy which is not derived from sex or sin, or the loss of virginity. Yet becoming pregnant is "more" than the man and women wish to do (they don't want to conceive a child).

Yet Donne goes on:

Donne's The Flea said:
Oh stay, three lives in one flea spare,
Where we almost, nay more than married are.
This flea is you and I, and this
Our mariage bed, and marriage temple is;
Though parents grudge, and you, w'are met,
And cloistered in these living walls of jet.
Though use make you apt to kill me,
Let not to that, self-murder added be,
And sacrilege, three sins in killing three.

The pregnant flea becomes a metaphor for the man and the woman, joined in the flea by virtue of their blood mingling, so that they are "more than married." He elaborates the metaphor of them being joined in the flea to an image of them "cloistered in these living walls of jet."

"Use" means both custom and sexual intercourse; "use" was believed to shorten the lives of men. He then alludes to the holy trinity, saying that while use makes her "apt" to kill him, she should not kill the flea, and thereby kill him, herself and the flea.

In the final stanza Donne writes:

Donne's The Flea said:
Cruel and sudden, hast thou since
Purpled thy nail, in blood of innocence?
Wherein could this flea guilty be,
Except in that drop which it sucked from thee?
Yet thou triumph’st, and say'st that thou
Find’st not thy self, nor me the weaker now;
’Tis true; then learn how false, fears be:
Just so much honor, when thou yield’st to me,
Will waste, as this flea’s death took life from thee.

In the first two lines, Donne doesn't say she killed the flea, but he implies it quite clearly; her nail is purple with the blood of the flea. That's subtext.

The woman proclaims that the death of the flea has not harmed her or the speaker, and then, Donne agrees and counters with "Just so much honor, when thou yield’st to me, / Will waste, as this flea’s death took life from thee."

He never actually says "sleep with me. " Yet this entire poem is an attempt at seduction. The seduction is largely in the subtext, in the implications of the words, and it's largely born from metaphor.
 
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Neegh

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Yeah, but I don't think that's talking about subtext. It's talking about external events vs the emotional core of the story.

Writing subtext is not the same as writing subconsciously: and while reading how can any one person be sure that the subliminal message they just “received” was from the writer’s subconscious or in fact, from their own?
 
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