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How Much is Too Much Vernacular?

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Jhaewyrmend

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Every once in a while, you've got that character that is either from the sticks, from Ireland, from Mars, from the hood, from the 80's and everywhere else in-between where people 'jes talk a might bit funny'.

How much do you use it? Are there any hard and fast rules for using it? When does it become too much? Always in quotes?

I've got a character in my upcoming NanoWrimo attempt who has a bit of a drawl.

Just and example: "You got to get. " is it acceptable to go with this "You gotta git."

And as always, thanks in advance for your thoughts.
 

threetoedsloth

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Do you stumble over it trying to figure out what the character is saying? If not, then you're fine.

Compare:
“Ain’t but a-our o’ two leff in the day. Dat walk take lease three hours, dere and back.”

To:
"Ain't but an hour or two leff in the day. That walk take least three hours, dere and back."

Sprinkle, don't pour.
 

Jamesaritchie

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is it acceptable to go with this "You gotta git."

And as always, thanks in advance for your thoughts.

I hear people talk like this on a regular basis. I've pretty sure I've used that exact phrase more than once.

"Common" vernacular is usually fine. You run into trouble more with accent, than with vernacular.
 

Locke

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Do you stumble over it trying to figure out what the character is saying? If not, then you're fine

Unless the perspective character is having problems figuring it out as well, then putting the reader in the same situation is fine. Just don't do it too much since you'll frustrate the reader.

Also, I find that using the grammar of a particular dialect, sprinkled with the occasional accent, is usually enough once you've established where a character is from. So, if you're MC is the deep south and asking for directions to Country Road 42 South, then "Welp, you just take this road straight down yonder past Granny's Oil Can and hang a right. That'll get you where you oughtta be."
 

Reziac

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How much do you use it? Are there any hard and fast rules for using it? When does it become too much? Always in quotes?

What someone said about sprinkle, don't pour. It's like salt. Some enhances; too much makes it inedible.

I've got a character in my upcoming NanoWrimo attempt who has a bit of a drawl.

Just and example: "You got to get. " is it acceptable to go with this "You gotta git."

I have a bit character who talks like that -- I swear she sounds like John Wayne! For her dialog, I do stuff exactly like "You gotta git." But what makes her voice is not just the occasional blurry words like "gotta"; it's more her choice of language. Instead of "Are you going to eat all that?" she might say "You fixin' to eat this?"
 

Roxxsmom

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I agree with the others who say to use a light touch. There are some writers who have a talent for reproducing colloquial speech, but I suspect it comes from a genuine familiarity with the dialect in question. There's a fine line between accurately portraying the way someone actually sounds to a person who is unfamiliar with their dialect, and creating a caricature of their speech patterns that comes off as mocking or disrespectful.

Also, readers vary greatly in their tolerance for such things.

One thing to consider is that if a character appears frequently in the story, it can start to grate. But I know personally that if I interact with someone who has a speech manner or accent that's different from what I'm used to, I stop noticing it after a while. This could be reflected in the pov character noticing or reflecting on another character's accent early on, but after a while, it fades to a few words they may use differently.

And if I have a story set in (say) the UK, another thing to remember is that they spell most of their words the same way we do. As far as they're concerned, we're the ones mangling pronunciation.
 
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Albedo

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And if I have a story set in (say) the UK, another thing to remember is that they spell most of their words the same way we do. As far as they're concerned, we're the ones mangling pronunciation.

This. A thousand times this. For the love of God, don't try and render other people's accents fuhnetuhklee! It won't make sense to anyone who doesn't share your accent, because all of us read standard English spelling in our heads in our own accents.
 

flapperphilosopher

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This. A thousand times this. For the love of God, don't try and render other people's accents fuhnetuhklee! It won't make sense to anyone who doesn't share your accent, because all of us read standard English spelling in our heads in our own accents.

Make it a thousand and one. As an example: my first name is Anna, but not pronounced the usual way--rhyming with piranha, like the main character in Frozen. Phoenetically I would write it Ahna or maybe Onna. I had an English boyfriend (from South Yorkshire specifically) who considered "Arna" a phonetic spelling of it. I was baffled. There is clearly no R in my name! In return he was baffled that I thought he was putting an R in my name, and I was baffled he was baffled, because clearly "Arna" has an R. Eventually we realized no, he really wasn't putting an R in my name, it's just that to him the letter combination "ar" is always pronounced the way I would pronounce "ah"!
 

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Eventually we realized no, he really wasn't putting an R in my name, it's just that to him the letter combination "ar" is always pronounced the way I would pronounce "ah"!

Sort of like that "ar" sound some mid westerners put in the word "wash"? It would be annoying to read a novel where a character was from one of those regions, and every time that person said "wash" it was spelled "warsh."

One of the most interesting different pronunciations I can recall was a Canadian colleague of mine. He pronounced most words the same way as west-coast USers would (we both taught at the same college here in CA). But he pronounced the word "skeleton" as (to my ears) "skel ee ton" instead of "skel uh ton." (long e instead of short e for the middle syllable).

Strangely enough, the last time I was in the UK, some people would ask my husband and myself if we were from Canada (I don't think skeletons were ever mentioned). Of course, just like the UK, there are many regional accents in the US, so to British ears, maybe a western US accent sounds Canadian.

Except Canada is a big country too, and I doubt people in Ottawa talk exactly the same way people do in Toronto or in Vancouver. I remember reading a novel once where one of the characters was from Newfoundland, and while the author didn't attempt to recreate his actual accent, she did have him say things like, "I'm after getting a beer" and so on.
 
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Thomas Vail

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Do you stumble over it trying to figure out what the character is saying? If not, then you're fine.

Compare:
“Ain’t but a-our o’ two leff in the day. Dat walk take lease three hours, dere and back.”

To:
"Ain't but an hour or two leff in the day. That walk take least three hours, dere and back."

Sprinkle, don't pour.
Both Iain Banks' Feersum Endjinn and Brian Jacques' Redwall series come to my mind as examples of stories where you have characters way of speaking get so heavy that it pulls you right out of the story trying to figure it out.
 

Reziac

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Sort of like that "ar" sound some mid westerners put in the word "wash"?

Some people in my family say wash, others (me too) say warsh. There's no consistency even tho the lot of us were all from North Dakota and all in close touch. I've speculated that it may have more to do with the shape of the individual's mouthparts, since those of us with a more-narrow jaw are more inclined to say warsh (and I've noticed that saying wash takes more physical effort).

Except Canada is a big country too, and I doubt people in Ottawa talk exactly the same way people do in Toronto or in Vancouver. I remember reading a novel once where one of the characters was from Newfoundland, and while the author didn't attempt to recreate his actual accent, she did have him say things like, "I'm after getting a beer" and so on.

Right -- if anything, per those I've heard, the various Canadian accents and manners of speech are more strongly regional than what we get in the U.S. 'Course, they're also more geographically isolated.

If you get a chance to see Winston Rekert's early work (before he took lessons to get rid of his accent), note his very strong B.C. accent -- rather more akin to an Appalachian accent than to anything most would think of as "Canadian".



(I hadn't heard that he'd died. Now I'm sad.)
 

rwm4768

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In my opinion, Huck Finn. It was a good story ruined for me by the way it was told. It was such a chore reading all the dialect. I think it could have been toned down without losing anything.

I don't know how many times I had to read "Shet de do" before I realized what it meant.

But some readers love that part of it, so it really depends on the reader. Everyone has different levels of tolerance.
 

blacbird

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I remember reading a novel once where one of the characters was from Newfoundland, and while the author didn't attempt to recreate his actual accent, she did have him say things like, "I'm after getting a beer" and so on.

Word choice goes a long way in conveying regionalism. I lived in New Orleans for several years, and there are lots of regionalisms down there, which you don't need to reproduce through faux-phonetic spelling. Among my favorites are two greetings, which are regional to individual neighborhoods within the city: "How y'all are?" is a cajun-inflected greeting, and "Where you at?" is more typically New Orleansian-centered, normally pronounced "Where y'at?". It has led to the appellation "Yats" being applied to people there.

Twain's use of vernacular spelling was very new, at the time he used it in Huck Finn, and he even provided a short explanation of the accents he was using at the beginning of that novel. Hard to fault him for doing that, at the time he did. And he still did it damn well.

Today, a little of such goes a long way, but that doesn't mean you can't dip into an odd-sounding pronunciation once in a while. But it's also very useful to remember that "standard" English, whatever that is, isn't spelled "phonetically" in any rigorous way.

And, yes, I know that Irvine Welsh got away with Trainspotting, and it was a best-seller. I tried reading it, got about three pages along, decided life was too short, and went to reading something else.

caw
 

Once!

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I think this is a risk and reward kind of thang.

Writing in heavy vernacular is high risk/ high reward. You might create the next Ulysses, Lady Chatterley's Lover, Trainspotting, Clockwork Orange. Fame, fortune and glory, awards and all the gold bullion you can eat. Or you might get it totally wrong. Your readers won't understand what you are saying and they stay away in droves.

It can be done well, but it can also be done very badly indeed.

Writing with a light dusting of vernacular is lower risk. You might not win style points for authenticity or innovation, but you have a higher chance that readers will understand what your characters are saying. It is more likely that you will be able to do it well enough.

There is also a risk if you make no attempt to hint at vernacular dialogue. Characters from Medieval England will not speak like modern day Californians. Readers can be jarred out of their willing suspension of disbelief if Sir Gawain starts over-using words like "cool" and "like".

The reader doesn't need you to go into the full Chaucerian mode to capture the mood - just enough vernacular to show where (and when)we are.
 

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I would say use phonetic variations as little as possible; sentence structure does more to deliver. It's also worth remembering that different readers will associate with speech patterns in different ways. By forcing them to pronounce things in specified ways, you are eroding some of the freedom of imagination that makes written work so endearing!
 

WriteMinded

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Sort of like that "ar" sound some mid westerners put in the word "wash"? It would be annoying to read a novel where a character was from one of those regions, and every time that person said "wash" it was spelled "warsh."
I confess to saying warsh. I try, and I try, but that r just slips right in there. We live in California, but my family is from Oklahoma.

My husband says crick for creek and lish for leash. He's from Colorado.

We're victims. :)

But, I don't think I would use that kind of vernacular in a book, except maybe a few Oklahoma y'alls, or if I were writing a western, I might use crick. It's like everything else, isn't it? It just depends.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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I confess to saying warsh. I try, and I try, but that r just slips right in there. We live in California, but my family is from Oklahoma.

My husband says crick for creek and lish for leash. He's from Colorado.

We're victims. :)

But, I don't think I would use that kind of vernacular in a book, except maybe a few Oklahoma y'alls, or if I were writing a western, I might use crick. It's like everything else, isn't it? It just depends.

We use crick in my part of the country, and to us, a stream is one thin, and a creek is something else. Here say wash, but most of those who live south of us say warsh.

I think words like these are perfect for fiction. They stop it from being generic, from all sounding alike.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Word choice goes a long way in conveying regionalism. I lived in New Orleans for several years, and there are lots of regionalisms down there, which you don't need to reproduce through faux-phonetic spelling. Among my favorites are two greetings, which are regional to individual neighborhoods within the city: "How y'all are?" is a cajun-inflected greeting, and "Where you at?" is more typically New Orleansian-centered, normally pronounced "Where y'at?". It has led to the appellation "Yats" being applied to people there.
caw

New Orleans is a great city, maybe my favorite, and they do have a language all their own. Several, actually. Though I suspect we use "where y'at" as much here as they do down there.
 

TheWordsmith

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I actually grew up with an ear for language, including sound variations and accents. Wherever I happen to be, I readily assimilate the patois of the area. In New York, people accept that I am from their borough, or whichever borough I choose to mimic at the time. In the south of Ireland, I am accepted as a local and everyone wants to know whereabouts I live. In Toronto, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Vancouver the result is pretty much the same. In college, I had a Spanish teacher from Venezuela. He wondered why I was taking the class because he thought I was a native speaker. (3 yrs of Spanish in high school helped with the language section of his confusion as I spoke rather fluently (needed the foreign language credits for graduation) but my ear for mimicry was impeccable.) I used to tell people that, while other kids were collecting dolls and stamps and Matchbox racers and whatever, I was collecting accents. And it's true. Sorry for wandering there...
back on track:

Sort of like that "ar" sound some mid westerners put in the word "wash"? It would be annoying to read a novel where a character was from one of those regions, and every time that person said "wash" it was spelled "warsh."

And yet, in the southern US, that pronunciation would be "worsh". And they pronounce the word "I" in some strange variant where it would be extremely difficult to provide an accurate phonetic transliteration. "ah"? No. "eh"? Nope. "aey"? Well, getting closer but... nope. Imagine trying to say the word "I" with your mouth open wide but twisted in such a way that your upper teeth go one way and your lower mouth/jaw/mandible go in the other. THEN try to pronounce it without closing your mouth. THAT's sort of the way it is pronounced. But, you can't put all of that into your story just to get the regional dialect accurate.

"...he pronounced the word "skeleton" as... "skel ee ton" instead of "skel uh ton." (long e instead of short e for the middle syllable)."

And yet neither of those is the pronunciation I grew up with, which was more like, "skel eh ton" and/or "skel ih ton".

Except Canada is a big country too, and I doubt people in Ottawa talk exactly the same way people do in Toronto or in Vancouver.

All of which brings me to the purpose of my post. People have a different 'ear' for speech, based on where they grew up and how they learned to speak and, too, whether the language you are writing is a first language for your reader. As Roxxsmom noted, everyone has a different understanding of language and trying to create that same accent for people who would well be hearing it in a different way would be difficult.

So, the trick is to put enough of the local patois into the character's speech to provide the essence of that accent without so much as to make it hard for the reader to read. Sometimes, you can simply allude to the accent and just let it go at that.

The trick is to put enough of that accent in to give the character flavor but not so much that it is going to make the reader stumble over the reading and break the rhythm of the sentences.
 
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StephanieZie

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Just and example: "You got to get. " is it acceptable to go with this "You gotta git."

And as always, thanks in advance for your thoughts.

For this particular example, I don't think the first way works at all. It left me scratching my head, saying "Got to get what?" With the second, I knew exactly what you were trying to say.

My instinct tells me to use vernacular sparingly. A bit here and there and the reader will get the hint that a particular character speaks in a particular way. Too much and it's intrusive. Exactly where that cut-off point lies is probably best determined by neutral betas.
 

Dave Williams

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is it acceptable to go with this "You gotta git."

*Briefly*, when the character is introduced, to set the reader's inner voice for that character. After that, stick with plain English.

If I have to translate dialogue into something understandable, I'm going to be annoyed enough to bail out of that book and find something readable.
 
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