write chronologically or all over the place?

graven29 said:

I spent most of the morning planning my nanowrimo novel and I decided that I will write it chronologically, but edit into the order that will create the biggest hook.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a decent plan. That's kinda what I'm doing for that project, as well. Seems like a generally solid approach, especially when trying to write quickly.

Except in this case, because I need my MC to unravel what other characters neither they nor the reader will see in action, this means writing a whole buncha scenes that will never be in the actual book way before I need them to be relevant because otherwise i won't have the slightest clue how my characters got to the places they were supposed to and I'll get stuck.

But I think the biggest problem I've realized with trying to write strictly chronologically is that I end up letting scenes run too long or start too early because as I'm writing them I'm trying to figure out how everyone got to where they're supposed to be. Whereas having a strict idea of what needs to be accomplished in the scene and a good end point/beginning point is fairly useful. Sometimes I only know that if I go out of order. My usual process is, mostly write in the order the story will ultimately go in, and sometimes write an important scene I need to be building up to, then go back and fill in only what's necessary/damn good scenes. Over explaining is a my biggest problem. Oye.

Australian River said:

I try to write in order, but sometimes if I am stuck, or if I have scenes which are super clear in my mind and just have to be written, I'll write those and then connect the dots in between, as it were.

Writing chronologically though usually works better at keeping me focused, because it forces me to push on through the 'boring' bits until I reach the exciting scenes I cannot wait to write.

Click to expand...

I do have a question though, because it's one I've started asking myself, so I'm just wondering what your answer is.

If it's boring/you're writing it because you feel it's necessary, why are you writing it? Because if you don't wanna write it or don't find it interesting, isn't it more likely that the audience will feel the same? What do you do about it in that case?

Because I had the same attitude but lately I've been reconsidering it, because, as I said, my biggest problem is over-explaining. Just wondering if I'm gonna screw up my process for no reason or something.

Makai_Lightning said:

I do have a question though, because it's one I've started asking myself, so I'm just wondering what your answer is.

If it's boring/you're writing it because you feel it's necessary, why are you writing it? Because if you don't wanna write it or don't find it interesting, isn't it more likely that the audience will feel the same? What do you do about it in that case?

Click to expand...

For me, it's not so much that they're boring to write, they're just not what I want to write at the moment. Maybe there's something that isn't quite falling together yet, or I just plain don't feel like it.

There are some scenes I just don't enjoy writing in general. Car chase scenes, for one. And sometimes, whether I like it or not, the book needs a car chase scene. And I find sex scenes difficult to write (they take me 2-3 times longer to write than other scenes), but they're necessary since, well, I write erotic romance. LOL The scenes will still be exciting and engaging for the reader once they've been written/edited...they're just not as fun for me to write as others.

Makai_Lightning said:

I do have a question though, because it's one I've started asking myself, so I'm just wondering what your answer is.

If it's boring/you're writing it because you feel it's necessary, why are you writing it? Because if you don't wanna write it or don't find it interesting, isn't it more likely that the audience will feel the same? What do you do about it in that case?

.

Click to expand...

How the writer feels when writing has nothing at all to do with how the reader feels when reading. That's like saying I have to be clinically depressed to write about clinical depression and make the reader feel it. I don't have to laugh at something the reader laughs at, or cry at something the reader thinks is sad, or be excited every time someone in a scene has sex.

I can be bored to death by a scene, and readers can find it the most exciting thing they've ever read.

A sad scene is a sad scene, a happy scene is a happy scene, and an exciting scene is an exciting scene, whether written by an emotional writer, or by a computer. Words mean what they mean, regardless of how or why they're written, and certianly regardless of how the writer feels emotionally.

Look at it this way. If you receiver a death threat in the mail, if it simply says "You will be murdered the first time you leave your home", are you going to feel one way if the writer of the note is a serial killer, another way if the writer was a bored college kid, another way if the writer was sad, or happy, or bored, or depressed when he wrote the threat?

You have no clue how the writer felt, and you aren't going to care. The emotional impact on you comes from the words you read, not the emotional state of the person who wrote it.

Makai_Lightning said:

I do have a question though, because it's one I've started asking myself, so I'm just wondering what your answer is.

If it's boring/you're writing it because you feel it's necessary, why are you writing it? Because if you don't wanna write it or don't find it interesting, isn't it more likely that the audience will feel the same? What do you do about it in that case?

Because I had the same attitude but lately I've been reconsidering it, because, as I said, my biggest problem is over-explaining. Just wondering if I'm gonna screw up my process for no reason or something.

Click to expand...

Happy to answer that question!

When I say 'boring' I don't mean really 'boring' but just less interesting than the big plot twists etc. My University English professor always told me that I needed to make sure I didn't ignore 'padding' the story. 'Padding' means all those less important things that connect one awesome scene to another.

'Padding' has to be beautifully-written and add to the story, and it can also be the hardest to write. With the big scenes, we always see them very clearly and they're therefore easy to write, but the mundane bits of a story can be harder to put into words.

graven29 said:

I spent most of the morning planning my nanowrimo novel and I decided that I will write it chronologically, but edit into the order that will create the biggest hook.

Click to expand...

What is a "biggest hook", and how does editing create one?

I'm not great about writing chronologically. The first version of FATE'S PAST was truly "all over the place," but the published version will be mostly chronological with a section of flashbacks.

Jamesaritchie said:

How the writer feels when writing has nothing at all to do with how the reader feels when reading. That's like saying I have to be clinically depressed to write about clinical depression and make the reader feel it. I don't have to laugh at something the reader laughs at, or cry at something the reader thinks is sad, or be excited every time someone in a scene has sex.

I can be bored to death by a scene, and readers can find it the most exciting thing they've ever read.

A sad scene is a sad scene, a happy scene is a happy scene, and an exciting scene is an exciting scene, whether written by an emotional writer, or by a computer. Words mean what they mean, regardless of how or why they're written, and certianly regardless of how the writer feels emotionally.

Look at it this way. If you receiver a death threat in the mail, if it simply says "You will be murdered the first time you leave your home", are you going to feel one way if the writer of the note is a serial killer, another way if the writer was a bored college kid, another way if the writer was sad, or happy, or bored, or depressed when he wrote the threat?

You have no clue how the writer felt, and you aren't going to care. The emotional impact on you comes from the words you read, not the emotional state of the person who wrote it.

Click to expand...

I was thinking more indirectly than directly. More like, usually when you enjoy doing something, you--without really thinking about it--put more effort and emotion into it. When it comes to creating art you don't have to actually feel hot to write a sexy love scene, but if you as a writer find something engaging about what's going on, you have to try less hard to portray that, and with MUCH less effort it probably comes out better. Empathy, y'know? Like I can be REALLY connected to my characters even though I'm not maybe, a 25 year old prince, or whatever. I'm thinking more emotional integrity than literally. It's like, have you ever tried writing a sex scene before you had sex or ever felt horny? Or more to the point, read anyone else's (a la fanfiction, perhaps!). The emotional beats might be wrong or need much more reconstruction than if you were writing it thinking to yourself like, "damn, Esmeralda is going through SO much right now and ecstatically thinking of ways to portray that.

And I feel like, if I love all my characters to death and even I don't find a scene engaging somehow on an emotional level or something, how on earth do you gauge how much a reader will like it?

Or if I'm not liking a scene as a story-teller, is it because part of me is recognizing, as the reader in me, that it doesn't need to be there or doesn't have as much weight as what else I have in the book?

thethinker42 said:

For me, it's not so much that they're boring to write, they're just not what I want to write at the moment. Maybe there's something that isn't quite falling together yet, or I just plain don't feel like it.

There are some scenes I just don't enjoy writing in general. Car chase scenes, for one. And sometimes, whether I like it or not, the book needs a car chase scene. And I find sex scenes difficult to write (they take me 2-3 times longer to write than other scenes), but they're necessary since, well, I write erotic romance. LOL The scenes will still be exciting and engaging for the reader once they've been written/edited...they're just not as fun for me to write as others.

Click to expand...

Wait... so you write erotica but sex is the least interesting part for you (or one of them)? How did you get into writing erotica? Was it for the challenge or you like reading it back to yourself afterwards or something? To be extremely fair, kudos, because sex is hard to write. And action. (For me, I have trouble writing certain scenes, but I either try just to widen my skill set or experience, or I know it's what I would find exciting to happen and I just haven't figured out how to write it yet. But forcing myself to do something without some kinda passion or drive behind it, well, it's a stark difference in quality.)

Australian River said:

Happy to answer that question!

When I say 'boring' I don't mean really 'boring' but just less interesting than the big plot twists etc. My University English professor always told me that I needed to make sure I didn't ignore 'padding' the story. 'Padding' means all those less important things that connect one awesome scene to another.

'Padding' has to be beautifully-written and add to the story, and it can also be the hardest to write. With the big scenes, we always see them very clearly and they're therefore easy to write, but the mundane bits of a story can be harder to put into words.

Click to expand...

Ah. Of course. I think that's where you and I differ then, because I'm all about the littler moments I want to happen, and then they build until I have an idea for this exciting climactic moment or plot twist and go AHA! But I also rarely have a scene in mind where something exciting doesn't happen, even if it is mainly a connecting scene. But I guess my idea of "exciting" is probably very different.

Makai_Lightning said:

I was thinking more indirectly than directly. More like, usually when you enjoy doing something, you--without really thinking about it--put more effort and emotion into it. When it comes to creating art you don't have to actually feel hot to write a sexy love scene, but if you as a writer find something engaging about what's going on, you have to try less hard to portray that, and with MUCH less effort it probably comes out better. Empathy, y'know? Like I can be REALLY connected to my characters even though I'm not maybe, a 25 year old prince, or whatever. I'm thinking more emotional integrity than literally. It's like, have you ever tried writing a sex scene before you had sex or ever felt horny? Or more to the point, read anyone else's (a la fanfiction, perhaps!). The emotional beats might be wrong or need much more reconstruction than if you were writing it thinking to yourself like, "damn, Esmeralda is going through SO much right now and ecstatically thinking of ways to portray that.

And I feel like, if I love all my characters to death and even I don't find a scene engaging somehow on an emotional level or something, how on earth do you gauge how much a reader will like it?

Or if I'm not liking a scene as a story-teller, is it because part of me is recognizing, as the reader in me, that it doesn't need to be there or doesn't have as much weight as what else I have in the book?

Click to expand...

Yes, I understand it, put that way. I try to turn off all emotion when I write. It's more of an intellectual jigsaw puzzle, for me. It's a left brain activity.

But I may be fooling myself. I go into a zone when I write. Everything else just disappears, I'm concentrating so intently on the writing, so much in the zone, that maybe I don't even know how I do what I do.

I tend to doubt this, however, because I go into the same zone with a couple of other activities that have nothing to do with writing or emotions.

But you've given me something to think about, something I think I need to study.

Makai_Lightning said:

Ah. Of course. I think that's where you and I differ then, because I'm all about the littler moments I want to happen, and then they build until I have an idea for this exciting climactic moment or plot twist and go AHA! But I also rarely have a scene in mind where something exciting doesn't happen, even if it is mainly a connecting scene. But I guess my idea of "exciting" is probably very different.

Click to expand...

It isn't exactly the same thing, but I firmly believe that it's the small details that make the big moments believable. Whether it's a tiny bit of dialogue, a line or two of description at the right place, or some movement the character makes that seems inconsequential at the time, these things make the big story realistic.

So I'm not bored writing any scene. I'm not excited, either. I simply pay attention to everything, small or large.

Makai_Lightning said:

Wait... so you write erotica but sex is the least interesting part for you (or one of them)? How did you get into writing erotica?

Click to expand...

I should have been clearer...sex scenes are simply more difficult for me to write. Ditto with car chase scenes...they're just insanely difficult for me to write. It's not for lack of interest or anything, they're just...harder. So sometimes I'll put them off until after I've written some other scenes.

And scenes that don't interest me terribly are usually just not gripping me *in the moment*, but will pique my interest later after I've worked on something else. Hence writing out of sequence.

Sorry about the confusion.

I'm incapable of writing out of order I might note a dialogue or some element to do in scene X later on, but unless I've arrived at the place where it begins, I won't be able to just focus and write a whole, long, out-of-sequence scene. Might have to do with my mild OCD

Short stories, I'm usually straightforward, beginning to end. Longer stuff, I tend to assemble by the Tetris method.

caw

blacbird said:

Short stories, I'm usually straightforward, beginning to end. Longer stuff, I tend to assemble by the Tetris method.

Click to expand...

That sounds about right, tho I'm more a fan of Welltris. Indeed, my third dimension is that every loose end becomes a sequel.

Good point about shorts vs longs, tho -- my handful of existing shorts were all written linearly. But right now I'm incubating a short that started with a first line and an ending, now I have to find the middle. Where oh where could it be??

I've been writing chronological order. Although, I did just write the last chapter to my novel because I've been trying to work on a portion of the story and I can't seem to get it going. I know exactly how the story is going to end, which is why I was able to get that chapter done.

But yes, I write in chronological order.

blacbird said:

Short stories, I'm usually straightforward, beginning to end. Longer stuff, I tend to assemble by the Tetris method.

caw

Click to expand...

Maybe that's my problem. I hate Tetris.

Jamesaritchie said:

Yes, I understand it, put that way. I try to turn off all emotion when I write. It's more of an intellectual jigsaw puzzle, for me. It's a left brain activity.

But I may be fooling myself. I go into a zone when I write. Everything else just disappears, I'm concentrating so intently on the writing, so much in the zone, that maybe I don't even know how I do what I do.

I tend to doubt this, however, because I go into the same zone with a couple of other activities that have nothing to do with writing or emotions.

But you've given me something to think about, something I think I need to study.

Click to expand...

So that's kinda the point I was thinking actually. Because say you get super passionate/"in the zone" about carpentry, most times you do something like fashion a cabinet. How you feel is still affecting the output, indirectly. When you aren't "in the zone," you would have a harder time coming up with a better product, potentially. Not always, but it does seem to be a factor. Writing is ultimately just like any other craft in that sense, it's just different skills. I'm not saying you can only write what you do feel, but what you feel/how you're currently able to interact with the world affects what you are personally capable of. If you've got pneumonia and feeling miserable, or mono and practically a zombie, or insanely frustrated, etc, it's going to affect the quality of your work, your focus, efficiency... etc. I know what you mean when you say you're in the zone, or it's a left brain activity, because I get that way about most things I get passionate about when I do them. I still have trouble with those things when I'm depressed, mopey, and just wanna eat nachos all day. Writing utilizes and manipulates emotions, so on that level, you have to be able to understand them, how to do that, and be in a frame of mind where you can access that knowledge. It's not just that, of course. It's structure. It's word choice/sentence construction. An intellectual jigsaw puzzle. But you have to be able to utilize your emotional intelligence, too.

Jamesaritchie said:

It isn't exactly the same thing, but I firmly believe that it's the small details that make the big moments believable. Whether it's a tiny bit of dialogue, a line or two of description at the right place, or some movement the character makes that seems inconsequential at the time, these things make the big story realistic.

So I'm not bored writing any scene. I'm not excited, either. I simply pay attention to everything, small or large.

Click to expand...

Excited in this case, I mean more engaged.

In any case, there's of course the question of who you're writing for/why you write. If it's for an audience you yourself are a part of, then you are in a sense your own first reader, albeit a bit too attached, perhaps. If you're audience varies from what you like most, that's also something to be aware of and why you wouldn't be as engaged with certain scenes over others.

thethinker42 said:

I should have been clearer...sex scenes are simply more difficult for me to write. Ditto with car chase scenes...they're just insanely difficult for me to write. It's not for lack of interest or anything, they're just...harder. So sometimes I'll put them off until after I've written some other scenes.

And scenes that don't interest me terribly are usually just not gripping me *in the moment*, but will pique my interest later after I've worked on something else. Hence writing out of sequence.

Sorry about the confusion.

Click to expand...

Nope, that pretty much makes sense, I can at times, be easily confused.

I generally start with a rough outline and skip forward through the points where I already know what's going to happen.

I then go back and fill in the intervening scenes. One reason why I do this is that sometimes I know what has to happen in two important scenes, but I need to know the details of the later scene in order to figure out what happened for the characters to get there.

It's just how my brain works; sometimes my writing is like solving a maze and you make far fewer mistakes when you're going backwards.