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How terrible where you when you first started writing? (Or rather practice vs. natural talent?)

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ash.y

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Well when I wrote my first book in the first grade I was brilliant. It's been a slow creative decline ever since. ;P

In all seriousness, I think I had two things naturally going for me--being obsessive and having a strong sense of taste. But there was very little natural writing talent involved.

It took me: filling up notebooks, writing tens of thousands of words on a dozen forum rpgs with friends, getting a degree in professional writing, editing for a job, reading almost three decades' worth of books, and starting and failing many projects...just to reach the painful squirrelly years of "not being completely sucky, but still fumbling along untested and unpublished."

Honestly I feel like I shouldn't even bother responding to this thread until there are Goodreads reviews of my books saying I'm the next literary Messiah. What if I'm actually a deeply sucky writer who will never be good at this? What if lots of hard work doesn't pay off for everyone? What if some people should never write and never be published, and I'm one of them?! Ahhh!
 

Scribesage

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I wrote my first (attempt) at a book around fifth grade. All my friends read it and thought it was amazing, but I look back on it now and the characters are all over the place, there's barely anything connecting the scenes. I wrote short stories before that which were also not great. At the very least, I had a decent grasp on how to form sentences.

I wouldn't go so far as to say my writing is fabulous now, but it's improved. Every time I write something new, it improves a bit more. Reading helps, too.

IMO writing can't really be called entirely an innate talent or something you learn. Like some others have said, sure there are people who are better starting out than others - but we all get better with practice.

Learning is the important part. With writing, I don't think you can ever stop learning it and practicing and changing. If you do, you stagnate. Whether you started out great or you worked your way to great, it's useless if you stay at great and don't aim for amazing.
 

Jamesaritchie

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but we all get better with practice.



No, not everyone does, at least not to any measurable degree. There are all sorts of areas, professions, etc., where you can practice for decades, and really be no better than when you started, at least if you judge by those who really are good.
 

Jrpharoah

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Art is all about practice, I believe. As long as you have the motivation to practice for years and years you will get better. No doubt about that. Plus, it's all about revising the work you have in front of you.

I am such a better writer. I've been writing on and off 9 or 10 years (only a 4 year hiatus in high school). I mean just in the past 2 or 3 years I've improved massively. But that's because I try and write at least 4 to 5 times a week.
I started when I was a kid, before middle school, and now i'm 4 years out of high school. So I think its practice, not talent, that makes good writers.
 

C.bronco

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Genius has been defined as making connections that others don't make. I think there is something in that. Literature and poetry are both a study of the human experience. Nothing good comes if your gifts sit back in storage, but I also think there is something that makes us read some writers and gasp in recognition of something said in a way that reaches us.
 

J.S.F.

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No, not everyone does, at least not to any measurable degree. There are all sorts of areas, professions, etc., where you can practice for decades, and really be no better than when you started, at least if you judge by those who really are good.
---

If you're talking about athletics, I'd agree with that. Being a prime athlete is largely genetic although willpower and desire are key components. As for other professions--lawyer, doctor as examples)--you have to consider who is really "good". Of course there are those who set the bar impossibly high, but there are quite a few middle-of-the-roaders who are very, very good but not quite at the top. The question arises did they improve over a number of years from what they started out as, and by whose criteria was that improvement demonstrated?

With writing, while I do believe that some are naturally better than others, it's my contention that with practice you can get light years ahead of what you were when you started out.

As an example, I remember Robert McCammon's early works. Stinger, Swan Song and others were, to me, sort of schlocky. I know they did well in the horror genre and sold well--bestsellers, in fact--but I found them sort of generic. He was really great at setting up the horror/ripping apart scenes, though.

When he came out with Gone South (which I consider his masterpiece, even more so than Speaks the Night Bird) I changed my mind about him completely. In his works I saw great progression and accomplishment. To me, it indicates that while he had talent to start with, he improved upon what he had and optimized it.

Just my take on all this.
 

Scribesage

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No, not everyone does, at least not to any measurable degree. There are all sorts of areas, professions, etc., where you can practice for decades, and really be no better than when you started, at least if you judge by those who really are good.

I think J.S.F. pretty much said it much better than I could have, but I'll throw in my two cents since you were responding to me...

If we're going from the get-go, right when you've started something, there's always room for improvement. Maybe you find a better way to do it or it just becomes more second nature than it was before, but you're still improving. Maybe there are fields where you reach a point where there's no room for improvement, but there's usually more you can do.

Sure, someone without a good grasp on something probably won't be as good as someone who comes to it naturally, but with practice they can at least grow to be decent at it and possibly even good at it. The person who it does come to naturally doesn't automatically start out with all the knowledge, either. Even someone who is good with cars wouldn't be able to fix one as fast as an experienced mechanic would if they'd never seen the inside of a car before.

Since we're talking more about writing in this thread, I'll just point over to J.S.F.'s Robert McCammon reference. While I haven't read those books specifically, I've seen a similar thing happen with other authors. I don't mean to make an all or nothing statement, this is just what I've experienced and seen others experience in their own writing. Practice has continued to make them better and they learn what works and what doesn't with each story.

Sorry if it seems like I'm dragging this out, I didn't mean to make such a long post!
 

The Package

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I lost a lot of my old work after switching computers, and two computer crashes in a decade.

Miraculously, one story survived all that. I wrote it six years ago, and it is hilariously bad. The first sentence is present tense, and the rest is past. When I read it, I'm half ashamed that it's only six years old.

I may still suck, but I've come a long way.

In regards to your question. I think writing itself (knowing how to put words in a particular order to render the greatest effect) is learned, but knowing how to tell a story is inherent. I know lots of people who, around a camp fire, can tell a mean story, but given a pen and paper, they couldn't write something I'd want to read.
 
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Ken

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No, not everyone does, at least not to any measurable degree. There are all sorts of areas, professions, etc., where you can practice for decades, and really be no better than when you started, at least if you judge by those who really are good.

Am in agreement with this. A quick visit to the bookstore shows it's so.

Few writers make it onto the shelves. Fewer still who actually sell well. And this despite the fact that millions and millions struggle for years to do just that.

Conclusion? All the practise in the world will only get one so far. You either have what it takes or you don't.

NOT to say that if you do, you still don't have to practise and that there isn't plenty of room for improvement.

NOT to say that if you don't, there is anything at all wrong with writing for some small press with a dozen or so readers consisting of friends, etc. (I aspire to this aim myself.)
 

BookmarkUnicorn

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I've always wondered: If a writer is bad to most, but they still sell really well, are they really a bad writer after all, or is it just a matter of point of view? Is selling the true mark of good writing from a writers hard work, or just right time, right readers, right word of month? Sorry, just this topic got me wondering with the all this talk about being doomed to be unsellable in some cases..
 
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wampuscat

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I pretty much agree with every word BethS has said in this thread.

I also think developing the ability to tell when your own writing needs help is key to becoming a better writer. I think that comes through reading, being critiqued/critiquing others, etc.
 
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rwm4768

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Yes, natural talent plays a role, but in authors who do possess that natural talent (which includes more authors than you might think), practice will definitely lead to improvement. Perhaps some authors start out writing well, but they're exceptions, not rules.

And if you start out writing seriously when you're in your teens, you damn well better improve. If you don't, something's wrong.

I've read many authors where I've seen drastic improvement over the course of their careers. To think that practice doesn't matter is just ridiculous. For people who are simply brilliant, maybe it doesn't. For people who just plain suck, maybe it doesn't. But for most of us, practice is the difference between the crap we write as teens and the publishable-quality material we write later on in life.
 

endearing

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I wrote my first "book" (a picture book with my own illustrations, made of construction paper) in first grade, and was prolific even then. I wish I still had those books, just to know exactly what I wrote about (something about a unicorn), but I lost them in between a few moves, unfortunately.

For me, as someone who grew up bilingual and loves languages, grammar and construction came very naturally. The general structure of a story also came somewhat naturally, by diffusion, because I just read so many all the time.

That being said, though, I have a LOT of weaknesses as a writer, not the least of which includes brainstorming plots. And though I've written several first draft novels, there was a time when I wondered if I'm really just not cut out to be a novelist--for some reason, short stories were always easier.

So I think I started to like writing because it was something I could do, but I know I have a long way to go, and firmly believe practice makes a difference. And while not all authors improve over time and across their oeuvre, I have read some who definitely, definitely do.

I've always wondered: If a writer is bad to most, but they still sell really well, are they really a bad writer after all, or is it just a matter of point of view? Is selling the true mark of good writing from a writers hard work, or just right time, right readers, right word of month? Sorry, just this topic got me wondering with the all this talk about being doomed to be unsellable in some cases..

I think there are different benchmarks for good writing, and it is possible for an author to be good at some, but not all, of them. For example: writing a plot so engaging that readers don't want to put it down and need to know what happens next is definitely part of being a good writer. But choosing the words with the right nuances and writing prose so lyrical it's almost poetry, without overdoing it, is also part of being a good writer.

So I've noticed that there are some huge bestsellers that do the first component well, but noticeably fail in the second; and I've noticed others that do both well. My goal is to try for both, but I still have a lot to learn.
 
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Thuro

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Well I'm still Blegh.. But I think I'm less Blegh than I was than I started. So I'd say its practice.
 

Laer Carroll

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Every writer is different. Measuring yourself against others can be fun, but means nothing when it come to YOU. You may think you are ordinary, but you are unique.

As for me, from day one I was brilliant at wordsmithing. But at organizing a story I was terrible. At the first I needed little practice to improve, at the second, much.
 

TZScribbles

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I started writing to post a story on a free story site. Some of the authors there have 100-200 stories posted over a decade and the last is as bad as the first (from bad grammar and spelling to bad plot structure). One of the popular writers attempted to go professional with words on paper. He tried but couldn't change his writing style well enough to suit the people in the business so he decided to self publish ebooks. Other authors on that story site refuse to try changing, saying that there is a conspiracy against originality (and true talent like theirs) in the publishing business.


Me? After posting my first story, I wrote three or four novel-length piles of words back to back in the first year. I have been working on them in the years since so that they will at least resemble something you might buy off the shelf before I decide what to do with them. Other than names, there are very few words left from the original drafts. I now have conflict, character development, flawed characters, dead characters, maimed characters, plot structure, and even some dialogue.

Changing from your innate starting ability to what is needed for professional fiction is hard work. Some people do that work in school under the red pen lash of teachers, some of us came to 'creative' writing later in life and now have to teach ourselves, and rewriting is not as much fun as that first draft when you are dumping your imagination out onto the page. Proof reading is even worse.
 

Orianna2000

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(. . .) and rewriting is not as much fun as that first draft when you are dumping your imagination out onto the page. Proof reading is even worse.

I have to disagree. I love revisions! For me, the first draft is the hardest, because I don't know what's there yet. The story is just a series of unconnected flashes of inspiration floating around my head. But once that first draft is done, I can see the potential. The diamond is there, waiting for me to chip away the rough stone, cut it to size, and then polish it until it glimmers. Watching the story slowly evolve into something beautiful is what makes writing worthwhile.

Also, I don't proof-read. (Yikes! I can hear your protests of horror. . . .) Okay, I do proof-read, but I don't read the novel on its own, just for the sake of proof-reading. For me, that would be a waste of time. Instead, I keep an eye out for typos while I'm revising and editing. Sometimes I'll print a copy of my manuscript and go over it with a red pen, rearranging sentences, deleting dialogue, adding new descriptions, and so forth. If any typos catch my eye, I'll mark them for fixing. But I've never read a manuscript for the sole purpose of proof-reading. That would be horribly boring, and I wouldn't be able to help trying to rewrite things along the way. . . . :D
 

angeliz2k

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...bad. I was like seven!:D

Seriously, though, the writing part has always come pretty naturally to me (not to boast--I have good language skills, but poor coordination, for instance). The thing is, no matter how competent you are (and I've developed my skills so I am able to make the words work me), you can always, always get better.

I don't look back and cringe. I look back and say, hey, I had some nice bits in there and I'm glad I've improved.
 

elinor

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I started out TERRIBLE. But I kept writing, and writing and writing and writing. I loved writing. I loved making stories and the feeling of connecting with these characters I was writing about. And I think the important part was that I wanted to get better - I wanted to learn how to be better at telling stories, so I kept trying to improve, rather than believing that everything I wrote was solid gold.

Being a writer requires a certain amount of humility - an acceptance that you're a student for a lifetime, that you're always on the search for that perfect line.
 

Buffysquirrel

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If talent does exist, which I doubt, we have to ask ourselves why for most of Western history it has apparently resided only in privileged white males.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Technically I'm far superior to what I wrote at 14 or 15. But storywise? I think I was a more natural story teller then, writing some very fun O.Henryesque surprise ending stories. Somehow I've lost that and my stories all seem forced.
 
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RightHoJeeves

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Am in agreement with this. A quick visit to the bookstore shows it's so.

Few writers make it onto the shelves. Fewer still who actually sell well. And this despite the fact that millions and millions struggle for years to do just that.

Conclusion? All the practise in the world will only get one so far. You either have what it takes or you don't.

I know there are millions and millions who struggle and struggle, but how many of them actually do the necessary work? There are obvious many aspiring novelists out there in the world, but I wouldn't be surprised if most (as in like 95%) never actually finish writing one. And of that small percentage who do, how many actually edit and revise and accept criticism in the right way? Probably a similar percentage. (this is obviously just my guesstimations)

I met a young guy in a pub this week actually. He told me that he was an aspiring novelist, but after some probing he admitted he had never actually written anything. Everything was still in his head.

I think I do agree with your last point though, about having what it takes. I just think that "having what it takes" more refers to tenacity rather than some innate gift you have from birth.
 
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