I recently got very mixed reactions to a piece I did for workshop. The class was very divided (almost in half) on what they thought of my story. This has never happened to me before, and I'm not sure which side to listen to. I thought I was in agreement with the half of the class that was actually more critical of my work. They brought up the same things I was worried about when I turned the piece in. The other side actually liked what I had done and the way it is written, and the professor was on that side. I know it would be much easier to just believe what the people who liked the story are saying, but how do you ignore half the class who feels differently? Also, maybe I'm a little nervous about believing that the story is close to where it should be. Does that make sense? Have you guys ever gotten mixed reviews like this? What do you make of it when people are saying exact opposite things about your work?
Workshop confusion
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Well, for one thing, they could all be right. The people who liked it might have liked the characterizations and pacing, while the critical ones might have been jumping on POV issues and use of adverbs (just as a ferinstance).
Do you think you could fix the stuff that was criticized without losing what was liked? Or are they directly contradicting each other?
Do you think you could fix the stuff that was criticized without losing what was liked? Or are they directly contradicting each other?
I call stories that get radically different opinions Marmite stories, after the yeasty product with a strong taste that people either tend to love or hate. My experience has been they have more chance of selling than other stories, after getting at least one rejection from someone who utterly hates it. Because the people who love it will love it as strongly as the hate it receives. It's a better place to be than the bland story that isn't bad, but isn't interesting enough to stand out of the pile.
That doesn't mean the story couldn't use more editing, as that's hard to say without seeing it. But don't damage what people liked about the story, in the hopes that you'll win over the people who hated it.
That doesn't mean the story couldn't use more editing, as that's hard to say without seeing it. But don't damage what people liked about the story, in the hopes that you'll win over the people who hated it.
The comments were absolutely contradicting. What was in question was my approach to writing the story and the structure of it. It would not be possible to listen to both sides.
What's interesting is my class was a bit divided last time, too. It wasn't as clear down the middle. However, the ones who liked my last one are the ones that were critical of this one for the most part. I don't see this really happening as much with other people's work, but my stuff tends to bring out a divide. I have one more shot to workshop this piece, but as I rewrite it, I'm feeling less like my writer self.
Interesting. I wouldn't mind selling this story or any story. People on both sides liked the story's plot. Again, it was mainly the structure that was called into question. I do have an earlier draft where the structure was more traditional. Now, I am writing another draft, going back to a more traditional form, but the more drafts I do of the piece, I worry that I am losing other elements.
Critiques are valuable, and it's good to have an open mind about them, but at the end of the day, different people like different things. Sometimes you will have people who just don't enjoy what you do. So, in cases like this where things are split, the best you can do is go with your gut and listen to the things that resonated most with you.
So, if it feels like you're losing something important, or that this isn't *your* story anymore, go back and do it the way that feels right to you. At the end of the day, yours is the name that's on the work, and you have to love it first before it matters if anyone else does.
So, if it feels like you're losing something important, or that this isn't *your* story anymore, go back and do it the way that feels right to you. At the end of the day, yours is the name that's on the work, and you have to love it first before it matters if anyone else does.
There sometimes is a problem with critiquer's religious, philosophical, or psychological stance. And there are people who simply don't catch on to subtlety; they expect that everything will be laid out in plain direct language.
Take what you can from critiques and forget about the rest.
Take what you can from critiques and forget about the rest.
I'm getting my MS critiqued a few chapters at a time on CC. Because each critique is isolated from the others, you get very much a single person's opinion from each one.
What's interesting is that in many cases I'm getting contradictory comments from different people. One person thinks a section is boring, another loves it. One likes a phrase, another hates it.
What I'm learning, more than anything else, is how much variation there is in opinion. The trick is to figure out which critters are actually part of your target market and cater to them.
What's interesting is that in many cases I'm getting contradictory comments from different people. One person thinks a section is boring, another loves it. One likes a phrase, another hates it.
What I'm learning, more than anything else, is how much variation there is in opinion. The trick is to figure out which critters are actually part of your target market and cater to them.
My class is pretty small, and I think they are all my target audience. Having the class divided is not something that usually happens with my work or that I see with others' works.
The thing that I like about workshop more than having a one-on-one reader is that you get to sit in on a conversation about your work. People don't just say what they like or don't like. They talk it out. I'm a little confused right now, but the discussion piece of the workshop definitely was beneficial and I would have felt more lost without that piece.
Yeah, I get that. I'd love to try a workshop, but have never been able to find one in my area.
In any workshop, you are assessing your critters as much as they are assessing your work. Who tries to see what you are doing and helps you make it better? Who wants you to change things based on what THEY want? Who half-asses it? Who helps you the most? During my MFA program, there were 4-6 fellow students who really gave good critique and helped me the most as a writer. The rest I would put in the category of "noise." Every once in a blue moon one of those types might say something helpful, but rarely were they constructive or helpful.
If one "side" possesses more of the types who historically help you the most, I say consider them. If it's split among helpful and not helpful, then that's something else.
If one "side" possesses more of the types who historically help you the most, I say consider them. If it's split among helpful and not helpful, then that's something else.
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Yet another reason I don't like beta readers. If the professor is worthy of teaching a workshop, if he has good publishing credits, then if you have to listen to anyone, listen to him. If he lacks such credits, you're just screwed.
Unless a story is horrendously bad, you almost always receive widely conflicting opinions, and all of them are meaningless.
The trick is to find that one person who actually has a clue.
I look at feedback as a tool to get deeper into my story. I hardly ever do what people tell me to do. If something rings true, I try to go that direction and see if I like it.
I agree that one good, quality reader that gets you is like gold. I think other random readers, feedback in workshops, even one-off feedback from great teachers is really hit or miss and sometimes (oftentimes) what someone tells you, how they think you might "fix" something, is actually the opposite of where you might end up, but that, in a way, is also a great tool as a writer.
When I give feedback on a piece of writing, I always pray the writer is as hardheaded as I am.
I agree that one good, quality reader that gets you is like gold. I think other random readers, feedback in workshops, even one-off feedback from great teachers is really hit or miss and sometimes (oftentimes) what someone tells you, how they think you might "fix" something, is actually the opposite of where you might end up, but that, in a way, is also a great tool as a writer.
When I give feedback on a piece of writing, I always pray the writer is as hardheaded as I am.
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I often find if something deeply divides people, it must be art because art polarizes.
So give yourself time to stew on things and then look at it again and see what you, the artist, want the piece to be and where it is with their voices there, but not dominating.
And, like Polenth said, those are the pieces that do well because you aren't trying to please someone but rather create.
So give yourself time to stew on things and then look at it again and see what you, the artist, want the piece to be and where it is with their voices there, but not dominating.
And, like Polenth said, those are the pieces that do well because you aren't trying to please someone but rather create.
I don't know whether I have mixed emotions about this or not. The only person I ever try to please is myself. I think the entire secret of selling well is probably something we can't control. We have to write reasonably well, of course, and we have to have a good story and good characters, but for the story to appeal to a lot of people, we need teh same taste in reading the majority of the reading public shares.
So I write solely to please myself, trusting that my taste in reading is common, that I like what most people like, and most people like what I like.
This means I also trust that agents and editors share this taste, as well.
So, for the most part, I completely agree that trying to please other, trying just to create, probably works best. But only if you happen to share the same taste as a sizable percentage of the reading public. Maybe not enough of them to sell ten million copies, but enough to make and agent and editor says yes, and to sell some copies. I don't know that it's possible to fake this shared taste, tough I could be wrong.
At the same time, however, I know I have to make some concessions in which story I tell, in what the story has to say, and in format and structure.
But the creativity still needs to be there, and while I think sharing the same taste as the reading public is crucial, my experience is that originality is crucial, and group beta readers kill this. Dead, dead, dead. Slush piles are truly horrible, and even the well-written stories are same old, same old, same old, even though every darned one seems to have gone through a dozen or more beta readers. I think this is largely because so many beta readers try to turn a story into something they've read before. Writer X does this, writer y does that, and you should, too. Even if they don't say this, it's behind every comment.
But if you can find that one beta reader who knows what publishable means, and who knows that originality is necessary, and who knows how to let you create, you have someone you need to lock in your basement.
My professor is widely published in literary journals and has a few books under his belt. He said the story was "close." Still, it's hard to ignore the people who didn't see my story the way way he did. I do respect their opinions, too. I am in a program with some great writers and I want to say all their comments are valid. But you are write to point out the weight of my professors opinion since he has accomplished quite a lot in his own writing.
This story in question is absurdist fiction. I don't know if that makes a difference. This is also the second draft of the story. When I workshopped the first draft (with the same people) I also got a little bit of a mixed reaction, but the divide wasn't as clear. This round half the people said the first draft was better and half liked the new draft (professor included). I think the first draft was more absurd and funnier. This also makes me wonder if it has something to do with the reactions I got.
Maybe part of me has a hard time accepting or believing that my work is getting close. I have been writing short stories for a long time now (or it feels that way). But the longer I do this and get rejections, the more I get discouraged. I used to send off stories soon after I wrote them. That hasn't worked so I'm trying to put more time into them and seek outside opinions before submitting. I just didn't count on conflicting opinions. Maybe I should talk to my professor for a little help deciphering the mixed reviews.
My average is 10 drafts before sending something out, fwiw. About 3-5 circulations with various readers I trust to vet the bigger changes.
From what I've read on this thread, it does sound like it needs more work in whichever direction you decide to take it. I am not sure how a story can be close after two drafts, but everyone writes a bit differently. Some of the stuff I care less about, like flash stories, obviously don't go through that much work before being submitted, but my "good" stories do.
There is a lot of interesting advice on editing in this thread. Thanks for starting it.
From what I've read on this thread, it does sound like it needs more work in whichever direction you decide to take it. I am not sure how a story can be close after two drafts, but everyone writes a bit differently. Some of the stuff I care less about, like flash stories, obviously don't go through that much work before being submitted, but my "good" stories do.
There is a lot of interesting advice on editing in this thread. Thanks for starting it.
My first drafts are pretty clean. I don't think I could or would ever do 10 drafts of anything. I edit as I go and then usually polish the story when I am done. In the class I'm taking we have to do complete rewrites of the same story. This is not normal for me. But being told my work is "close" is something professors and editors have told me before.
I once did a complete rewrite of a story, but it was two years after I originally wrote it. In that case, it worked. My writing had greatly improved, and I wanted that story to match my current skills.
However, the story that I am working on now already matches my skill set.
Well, I hear you. Sometimes a lot of work goes on before you put the words into the sentences. Clean writing should be a given. (My drafts are clean, too.) The only thing I can tell from what you've shared is that this story may be close, but it isn't ready yet, so either it needs another revision if you still feel strongly about it, or it needs to be abandoned. If you really don't know which direction to take, write a few versions. Maybe three versions: one in the direction one group is telling you to take, one in the other direction, and one in the direction nobody is telling you to take. Whichever excites you most, take that one all the way.
This is a short story, so it's not like it takes a huge effort to try revisions until you know what you want. The worst thing, I have found, is writing by committee. Writing is best when the writer is writing for the writer alone, letting the reader in on whatever is intimate to the them. At least that is my experience and opinion-- if you put yourself into your work, not everybody is going to like you, but you've succeeded in expressing your imagination/art, and, in a distanced way (after you've finished with it), people connect best with what is genuine and personal.
This is a short story, so it's not like it takes a huge effort to try revisions until you know what you want. The worst thing, I have found, is writing by committee. Writing is best when the writer is writing for the writer alone, letting the reader in on whatever is intimate to the them. At least that is my experience and opinion-- if you put yourself into your work, not everybody is going to like you, but you've succeeded in expressing your imagination/art, and, in a distanced way (after you've finished with it), people connect best with what is genuine and personal.
This has happened to me a lot. Assuming that I respect the opinion of the people who love what I did, and assuming they really do love it (and aren't just being polite), then I don't worry about the people who dislike it. If half my readers love it, there must be an editor out there who will love it too.
That's not exactly what I meant. You need to please someone if you want to sell it, so you do need to listen when everyone is saying your work isn't ready. What you don't need to do is please everyone, and trying to do so tends to mean making a story bland and lifeless. Getting outside advice can be useful, but you can also over-workshop stories and remove everything that makes your work distinctive.
You can watch this happen sometimes in SYW here. The first draft has promise and needs some work. A couple of drafts later, it's there. But the writer keeps on editing because not everyone is happy, and the drafts get worse from then on.
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