The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

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Marian Perera

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Dick posted on another forum about this, expecting to be attacked. He obviously came here partly to bait us.

I think people who expect to be attacked will often behave in ways intended to provoke said attacks, so they can be proven right.

And coming to this forum and suggesting that people discuss something else (not the first time a PA supporter has tried that) is like going to an AA meeting and saying, "You know, I was a social drinker and it was never a problem for me. Now can't you people talk about the environment or something?"
 

tlblack

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Hmmm, imagine that - PA deleting a post.

Welcome aboard Dick. I'm sure the folks over on the mystery and freelance forums would enjoy having someone with experience in those areas. Yes, this place does tend to grow on you, and since I joined up, I've had the luck to get out of my PA contract because these threads exist and because they aided me in figuring out the best way to approach PA on the subject. I see you're happy with what PA provided you and that's great. I would hazard a guess that most PA authors don't fall into that same category.

OALN, my Grandfather was also at Normandy, and served with General Patton during the war as well. He's 87 years young and still acts his shoe size. I'd love to hear all of the stories I'm sure he could share with me about WWII if we weren't on different sides of the country. I'd also love to have him here and get some photos of the five generations that now exist in our family.

As for my opinion of PA; it's not a nice one. I'll just leave it at that. Now back to my cleaning so I can get back to writing.
 

Dick Stodghill

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Darn it, I don't think Queen likes me.
Narcher, you sneaked one in on me when I was posting. As you have found me guilty, I guess the jury has gone home. Even so I will make a partial confession. For ten years of writing a daily newspaper column I made a living from getting a rise out of people. However, I did not come here to bait you. At least I don't think so, but I admit to being devious even with myself.
As for educating people, I tried that for a while on the PA board. I'm a slow learner but eventually came to realize that most people do not want to be educated. Someone with a "book" of six or seven poems would go into detail explaining why I was a complete idiot. The general feeling seemed to be "kill the messenger."
You mentioned WWII. To prove the above point you should hear the comments when I say war is not good. "Unpatriotic swine!" "No good commie!" I won't mention the bad ones.
 

Marian Perera

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Darn it, I don't think Queen likes me.

Well, Queen is weird that way. She doesn't like people who behave disingenuously and attempt to blame others for the misinformation they hand out.

It's OK, though. I'm sure PA still holds you close to its heart, and counts the days until you return.
 

Jersey Chick

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Welcome, Mr. Stodghill - and I mean that honestly. I hope you decide to stick around here and by here I mean AW in general, not just the PA threads. There's a ton more to AW than just these PA forums.

Oh, and let me second that the nicknames are not done out of spite or to be snarky. It is basically to prevent Googling of a name - for better or for worse.
 

JulieB

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Dick posted on another forum about this, expecting to be attacked. He obviously came here partly to bait us.

I'm not surprised he expected to be attacked. It's happened here before. A PA author shows up and posts something that most folks here disagree with, and people pile on.

I'm not a fan of PA. I don't like their business practices. And yet, when we start picking apart the posts of a PA author who joins us, I can understand how it gives the impression that we're attacking.

All I'm asking is for people to think before they post. Put yourself in the place of someone who has heard those tales of how we at AW are a pit of lions, hungry to tear apart the poor souls who dare disagree with them.

I've seen how people talk about AW on other forums. I don't know if we deserve the negative reputation that we have in some places, but we sure as heck do our best to show the world that we're not the lion pit.

<<---Not lion in avatar. Honest.
 

CatSlave

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I forgot to mention one point raised. I was banned from the PA board for being cranky. Me? Can you believe that? Then they asked me to come back and I said, "So long, it's been good to know ya." That post, sad to say, was quickly deleted.


:welcome: Cranky is permitted.
Even we regulars, on rare occasions, get cranky. :D
Welcome to the AW forum, and thanks for sharing your story here.
In the strange universe that is PA, you are indeed the exception to the rule.
 

CatSlave

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I'm not surprised he expected to be attacked. It's happened here before. A PA author shows up and posts something that most folks here disagree with, and people pile on.

I'm not a fan of PA. I don't like their business practices. And yet, when we start picking apart the posts of a PA author who joins us, I can understand how it gives the impression that we're attacking.

All I'm asking is for people to think before they post. Put yourself in the place of someone who has heard those tales of how we at AW are a pit of lions, hungry to tear apart the poor souls who dare disagree with them.

I've seen how people talk about AW on other forums. I don't know if we deserve the negative reputation that we have in some places, but we sure as heck do our best to show the world that we're not the lion pit.

<<---Not lion in avatar. Honest.
In other words, respect your fellow writers.
Sometimes we need to be reminded. :)
 

Cyia

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Nice to meet you Mr. Stodghill. (So you're the pipe. I didn't know that, most of the nicknames started before my time. But that's the point, they don't want to embarrass people.)

Cranky's fine in here. So is snarky (or else I'd be in trouble).

Questions get answered, responses are given, discussions take place. Proof is usually cited. It's a nice place to settle in.
 

smsarber

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I forgot to mention one point raised. I was banned from the PA board for being cranky. Me? Can you believe that? Then they asked me to come back and I said, "So long, it's been good to know ya." That post, sad to say, was quickly deleted.
Dick, I humbly apologize. You're right, I didn't do my research. I don't travel back to the PAMB anymore. We had chatted a bit back then, and got along fine. I hope you don't take my previous statements and lack of foundation as a generalization of how everyone here acts. If you read my signature you'll see I know I tend to go off half-cocked, so I post my apology and welcome you to AW.
 

Christine N.

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I failed to mention one thing in that original post. The June issue of AHMM in which my story "Jack the Tripper" can be found actually appears in early April. Now why do you suppose they do that? By June, the July and August issues will be out. It's a strange business.

I have no idea. The latest issue of Realms of Fantasy, which had a review of one of my newer books (and which I thought would be the last issue, but thankfully not), also comes out a month or two (maybe even three, I can't remember) before the date on the cover. <shrug> I never understood that either.

I think I mentioned a few pages back (was it this thread? I lose track) that I wasn't sure if you still held to your previous belief about blogs.

Personally I'm all for the informed decision. If you know everything (or most) about something and you still decide to do it, then that's your right. It's your right to make an uninformed decision too. But if you'd research car insurance companies or doctors or even which mp3 player to buy, WHY wouldn't you research a publisher you were considering?

Without AW, the only information about PA on the internet would be all provided BY THEM. And we know how forthcoming THEY are.
 

ResearchGuy

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. . .The June issue of AHMM in which my story "Jack the Tripper" can be found actually appears in early April. Now why do you suppose they do that? By June, the July and August issues will be out. It's a strange business.
That seems to be normal practice for those sorts of magazines. I used to subscribe to AH. Now I subscribe to EQ instead. It always shows up way ahead of the pub. date (ditto for F&SF and Analog). I'll look for the June issue of AH on a newsstand, and might subscribe again. Nice to have you here. I've never had the imagination (or something . . .) to write fiction, and am always wowed by those who do. I think I am just too literal minded.

Cranky is good. I grok cranky.

:-0

--Ken
 

Christine N.

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And I'll add my welcomes too, in case I've forgotten. Please DO check out the other forums. There really is more than just PA or even B&BC.

There are plenty of writing parts here. Of course lots of questions about submitting and agenting, but lots of writing parts. You'll be welcomed, I'm sure.
 
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JimmyD1318

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Come away Dick…There is a bad smell in here. Like someone’s mama never washed their mouth out with soap.

2Ti 3:3


<SNIFF! SNIFF!> Hmmm...the only thing I smell is this fresh batch of POPCORN I popped up for Dick. Here you go sir. :popcorn: My father fought in WWII also. He earned the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star. As the son of a WWII vet I salute you. Welcome to AW, sir.
 

Afinerosesheis

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I feel we have turned a corner here...

Though things have been a bit uh...let's say spirited, I am glad to see two sides come together as one. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Being a PA author (unfortunately), I have gotten to know several PA authors, Dick being one of them. I don't regret that part of it. Whether they are pleased with their contract, that's up to them to decide. I have fallen out with some of them over my beliefs, yet there are others who I do not wish to lose contact with. Then I came here and got to know others who were helpful and kind, and did not judge me. They taught me that there is much better out there than what vanity publishers provide. I know that my manuscript was worth more than a stinkin' dollar!

I belong to both groups, and at times I feel I belong to neither. It's kind of weird.

I hope with this latest turn of events, writers will benefit from both sides of this publishing issue. Not PA, but people like Dick who do have vast knowledge to help other writers. And also veterans here at the AW. Hell, there is so much knowledge here, maybe they can even put their heads together to figure out the economic crisis!

I said maybe. =)
 
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narnia

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Hi Dick! I am so pleased to see you here! Please stick around and join us in the Mystery/Thriller/Suspense areas, it would be an honor to chat with you about writerly stuff! I have been a long-time subscriber to EQ and AH and love your stories. I think writing short stories is much harder than novels and would love to hear your thoughts.

AW is so much more than the PA section. And please understand those who seem vociferous to you in their warnings against PA, most if not all have a reason. I personally know two writers who were taken in (their words) by PA and feel as if their dreams were crushed. I realize that for some, as you yourself have stated, PA was/is okay. But I also know writers who thought their acceptance by PA meant that their hard work had resulted in being published along the likes of Random House, S&S, or Tor. That they would experience the thrill of seeing their book on a shelf in B&N or Borders or any other bookstore. That many readers would pick up their book, enjoy it and want more. None of that happened. My heart breaks when I read the PA stories of folks here, Mel, Merri, and most recently Sandyz. I know how they feel because I have seen it up close and personal in friends.

I know they could have done better research, or tried harder to get an agent, or any number of arguments. But I also know that PA does a very good job of making people feel special and then delivering the sucker punch when it is too late.

Anyway, I would like to welcome you to AW and I truly hope you stick around and hang with us in M/T/S!!!

:welcome:
 

Dick Stodghill

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Well, I've changed my mind again. After making the most recent post last evening I shut things down and went in to watch 60 Minutes. That's kind of a rule around here. Not 60 Minutes, but that I stumble into the living room by 7 p.m. Jackie is tolerant and serves as my proof reader, critic and gatekeeper so the hordes of adoring fans cannot disturb me at work - or play. But 12 hours is enough so knock it off and get in here, that's the rule.
Now, however, I'm in a quandary. Last night after hearing Andy Rooney discuss the problems facing newspapers I began thinking about the posts I made yesterday. My intention was to clarify a point or two, but it dawned on me that I was a disturbing factor here. Not because I'm a rabid defender of PA because I am far from that. It's just that I can't work up a real feeling of hate for any publisher although a couple have been less kindly than I would have liked. I understand those that do feel serious dislike for PA, however.
I've been on a couple of boards where a disturbing factor created havoc. On one, because I liked so many people there, I even defended PA against truly scurrilous attacks that were aimed not at the company but at the people who had used PA. He could have said anything he wanted to about the company and I would have paid no attention. When he went after individuals, that changed the picture. The hassle pretty much destroyed that board although it still exists in a ghostly fashion.
Recently another person tried the same tactics on a different board. I went after him like an out of control savage. He left.
I did not want to play that role here. A messageboard becomes a brotherhood and sisterhood. Most of the people never meet face to face, yet strong bonds develop. It's somewhat similar to the bond that exists among member of my own 4th Infantry Division Association. Age doesn't matter, the time when a man served doesn't matter. All that does is that at some point everyone wore the Ivy Division patch. Iraq, Viet Nam, World War II, it's all the same.
So the point is that I decided I'd write a goodbye note this morning and thank everyone for their consideration. Then when I turned on the computer this morning I found so many warm and welcoming messages that I now am not certain about that. Letting it ride for a little may be the best thing to do.
I'm not really surprised to find so many nice people here. In general that's what you find everywhere. Few things ever seem perfect so it's natural that one or two people disturb me because it seems their intent is not to point out the deficiencies in PA but to go after the people who have used it. I've seen too much hurt and too much suffering to think that is OK. Some folks are happy there so why try to burst their bubbles or tear them down? It doesn't hurt the company in any way, so what's the point? Fortunately the vast majority of members here are not that way. Inflicting pain would be foreign to them, or perhaps I should say to you.
So thanks for the many kind words. I appreciate them.
 
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narcher

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I hope you hang around, Dick. You are a talented writer.

Welcome!
 

narnia

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I, for one (and I am sure there are many others), would love to see you stay and hang out with us. I'd love to pick your brain re your mysteries. I just submitted my first ever short mystery for an anthology and am anxiously awaiting the outcome. In the meatime I am working on finishing up my novel in case the short story is rejected, which will kick those I-suck-syndrome feelings right back into high gear and temporarily derail my progress ..... :cry:

Again, welcome and please stay!

:Sun:

P.S. I too enjoyed Andy Rooney's segment. I found myself wishing he had named the newspapers he delivered as a child in his hometown of Albany, NY, which just so happens to be mine as well. Last year when gutting and fixing an old house I found local newspapers rolled up in the walls from the 1920s and 1930s in almost perfect condition. It was really cool!!!
 
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Marian Perera

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Few things ever seem perfect so it's natural that one or two people disturb me because it seems their intent is not to point out the deficiencies in PA but to go after the people who have used it.

I have no problems with someone using PA and finding that it works for them. If they're happy with their experience then I'm happy for them.

I do, though, have a problem with those who defend PA to the point of making untrue statements about PA critics or being rude and patronizing to the PA authors who have been less than happy with their experiences (and who have spoken out).

If this doesn't describe you, Mr Stodghill, that's great. But I think that you should ask yourself if you've ever contributed to the "too much hurt and too much suffering" you mention before attempting to judge the intents of others.

And I'm on great terms with PA authors who treat others with honesty, respect and decency. :) The fact that they are or were PA authors isn't what's relevant. The way they behave towards others is.
 
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Christine N.

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I agree that there is no harm in using a place like PA, knowing how publishing is supposed to work and being able to live with what PA gives you. I know you could have done better, but you didn't WANT it. No biggie.

I disagree with giving people false hope that 'other publishers have similar problems' (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) and that PA isn't as bad as it seems. It's disingenuous and really not fair. If you were only trying to make people feel better, I get that too, but for a professional such as yourself to tell little white lies, well, that's not right. And I say that because you ARE a professional and people know it. So those little white lies you tell to make people feel better, they take as gospel and then go around spreading them.

It's a fine line. Personally I'm not here to bash people who use PA on purpose or by accident. I only take issue when someone leads others down the wrong path, especially when that someone is supposed to know better.

Kind of like Anti-Bookstore guy with his line about how only 10% of books are bought in stores. I don't know if he really believes that or not, but it's not true, and it must be pointed out how it's not true.

There ARE plenty of previous PA authors here, sure enough. Some have gone on to publish with REAL publishers, and we're darn proud of 'em.

Anyway, I do hope you stick around.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Hi, Dick. Welcome to AW!

As many others have said, AW is much, much larger than this one sub-forum.

The Short Fiction area is here.

The Mystery area is here.

As others have said the nickname thing we do here is out of respect, not derision.

I'm not 100% sure that Lulu was even around when Dick first published with PA. CreateSpace certainly wasn't. If all PA authors did as he does -- not buying their own books -- PA would be out of business.

The cover dates on mass market magazines: Don't think of those the date of publication. Think of those as the sell-by date.

No newsstand wants last month's issue on the racks; if they put September on the September issue the publisher would have just 30 days to sell it. But if they put October on the September issue, hello 61 selling days!
 

LexiCan

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Hey Dick, I am so pleased to see you here! You were always one of my favorites over at the PAMB. I believe one of your last posts was to me, over in "Bad Hair Day" on the "book price" thread. You and I agreed that the book prices PA established were ridiculous ...I believe your words were "shooting themselves in the proverbial foot" (afterwich the thread was promptly locked LOL). I've checked out your blog and the interesting posts you've made on that other forum. I always thought you would like it here at AW. Not just for these PA threads, but because there are so many interesting discussions going on in the other threads as well.
Welcome!
 

Christine N.

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And there it is, right there: Dick never WANTED to sell books. He wanted a copy for himself and that's it. So book pricing to him wasn't an issue. PA is only shooting itself in the foot if it's goal is to sell to the general public.

That's not their goal. They want to sell to the authors, and figure the authors will pay whatever price PA sets.

You've never bought books, Dick - good for you! You never wanted them, either, nor did it matter to you if the book was ever on a shelf or in the hands of those you didn't know. Your name, your talent, and your subject matter is what made that happen for your book, and it happened IN SPITE of PA, not because of them. It was all you, and, well, GO YOU!

Unfortunately, not everyone has your clout or experience to draw on, and that's where the problems start. Not only that, but because other people DO want their book on a shelf or people they don't know to buy it.

Most writers at most publishers don't have to rely soley on their name, talent, or experience either - their publisher is working to help them out.
 

Marian Perera

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Unfortunately, not everyone has your clout or experience to draw on, and that's where the problems start. Not only that, but because other people DO want their book on a shelf or people they don't know to buy it.

And when they express their confusion or frustration, it's not fair (or correct) to tell them, in effect, "This is what happens to all writers unless you're Stephen King. Don't blame PA, because PA always does what it says it will do in its contract. Anyone who criticizes PA is wrong."
 
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