Mainstream views of beauty

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backslashbaby

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I just got a great pic in my e-mail from one of those bubbly workout magazines. I do get workout and recipe ideas from them, but I hate how similar their models tend to be.

But look at this!

http://www.self.com/images/fitness/2012/02/metabolism-01-fi186.jpg

I never thought I'd see this magazine promoting anything approaching thick. It's a small thing, but it made me happy :)

Please feel free to discuss more than this pic. I thought I'd share it, but the issue is huge.
 

FoamyRules

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I just got a great pic in my e-mail from one of those bubbly workout magazines. I do get workout and recipe ideas from them, but I hate how similar their models tend to be.

But look at this!

http://www.self.com/images/fitness/2012/02/metabolism-01-fi186.jpg

I never thought I'd see this magazine promoting anything approaching thick. It's a small thing, but it made me happy :)

Please feel free to discuss more than this pic. I thought I'd share it, but the issue is huge.
Here in the US the Mainstream view of Beauty are Eurocentric features. The more European you look the more beautiful you are. Everything tends to be white washed but slowly things are starting to change. There are still minorities who get completely ignored and are stereotyped. I think the pic is great I definitely would love to see more of them :)
 

AKyber36

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Curves instead of sticks for me as well. The whole trend towards unhealthily skinny really boggles the mind when you think back to the Renaissance, when a rounder woman was considered desirable. I believe there was even a time in ancient China when one of the four most beautiful Chinese women in legend was actually rather plump (she was a concubine of the emperor's).
 

crunchyblanket

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I have no problem with different shapes, shades and sizes being lauded as beautiful. What does bother me is the 'real women have curves' school of thought - the one that seems to think it's okay to disparage skinny women. Body fascism is body fascism no matter who's in favour.

*deep breath*

That said, all three of those women look really slim to me.
 

Lavern08

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Am I missing something? They all look pretty thin to me.

I'm thinking they all look rather thin too - The girl in the middle has a little bit of a pooch tummy - Maybe that's what BSBaby is talking about? :Shrug:
 

kuwisdelu

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does bother me is the 'real women have curves' school of thought - the one that seems to think it's okay to disparage skinny women. Body fascism is body fascism no matter who's in favour.

Agreed. No one can win.

If you're not too fat, you're too thin.
 

Sheila Muirenn

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Here in the US the Mainstream view of Beauty are Eurocentric features. The more European you look the more beautiful you are. Everything tends to be white washed but slowly things are starting to change. There are still minorities who get completely ignored and are stereotyped. I think the pic is great I definitely would love to see more of them :)

When I was a child in the 1970's, everything was definitely very Eurocentric. I did live in the midwest in a small town, so my exposure may have been further skewed by that.

Now? The media feels very, very, different. Many more different types and colors are featured as 'beautiful,' or just as everyday people. Back then, I don't think I ever (or rarely) saw it happen.
 

missesdash

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Here in the US the Mainstream view of Beauty are Eurocentric features. The more European you look the more beautiful you are. Everything tends to be white washed but slowly things are starting to change. There are still minorities who get completely ignored and are stereotyped. I think the pic is great I definitely would love to see more of them :)

This actually isn't as true as it used to be. If you look at very popular famous women you'll see ethnic features sprinkled throughout. Scarlett Johansson's body shape, Angelina Jolie's lips. Sophia Vergara is insanely popular as well. Outside of high fashion, the trend really is towards an attractive ethnic mix. Full lips, big eyes, dark hair, tanned skin. The waif blond, to me, is the eurocentric ideal and she's not as popular as she used to be.

Oh and second the whole "real women have curves" being nonsense. So annoying. Real women identify as women.
 

FoamyRules

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This actually isn't as true as it used to be. If you look at very popular famous women you'll see ethnic features sprinkled throughout. Scarlett Johansson's body shape, Angelina Jolie's lips. Sophia Vergara is insanely popular as well. Outside of high fashion, the trend really is towards an attractive ethnic mix. Full lips, big eyes, dark hair, tanned skin. The waif blond, to me, is the eurocentric ideal and she's not as popular as she used to be.

Oh and second the whole "real women have curves" being nonsense. So annoying. Real women identify as women.
That's what I meant when I said things are starting to change. But you gave better details than I did. What you said is true. And I definitely agree with the statement in bold.
 

crunchyblanket

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This actually isn't as true as it used to be. If you look at very popular famous women you'll see ethnic features sprinkled throughout. Scarlett Johansson's body shape, Angelina Jolie's lips. Sophia Vergara is insanely popular as well. Outside of high fashion, the trend really is towards an attractive ethnic mix. Full lips, big eyes, dark hair, tanned skin. The waif blond, to me, is the eurocentric ideal and she's not as popular as she used to be.

Oh and second the whole "real women have curves" being nonsense. So annoying. Real women identify as women.

While the ideal is now encompassing of a greater variety of features, it's still limited in that it is an ideal. There's no room in there for me, for example - a pale-skinned, pear-shaped redhead - or for a short, muscular black woman, or a waiflike Asian woman, or any other combination of features that don't fit the 'ideal'.

I look forward to the day when there is no one singular beauty ideal, regardless of how inclusive that ideal is.

(eurocentric as a term is somewhat confusing to me - europeans can be a diverse looking bunch. Italians, Spaniards, Germans, Finns, Turks, Irish, Russians - there's a variety of features, skin tones and other features in there.)
 

backslashbaby

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Oh, she's still thin, no doubt. Y'all'll have to click around on that site to see what I mean. She is muscular and has a bit of bodyfat. Highly unusual there. Her race is pretty darned unusual on that site, too. Click around. It's awful.

Oh, she's not thick like thick can be, no!

But this is what mainstream* young American women have available to buy (if they haven't yet thought to consider the Black or Latino culture alternatives.) This is the ideal, from a magazine that is about fitness. She looks very different from the usual body type they pick.

The usual body type seems like a serious runner's body type with amazingly low bodyfat, imho. I don't mean to disparage it. It is completely unrealistic for me to try to achieve healthily, however.

Fortunately for me, I went to a Black university fairly soon after high school, and I came to learn what is appreciated outside of my very whitebread culture. I'm so thankful for that. My brother would make fun of my figure and I could honestly tell him that I got no complaints! :D

eta: * I really can't think of a better word than mainstream, but it has its problems, too. Tell me if y'all can think of the perfect word I'm looking for, please.
 

missesdash

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While the ideal is now encompassing of a greater variety of features, it's still limited in that it is an ideal. There's no room in there for me, for example - a pale-skinned, pear-shaped redhead - or for a short, muscular black woman, or a waiflike Asian woman, or any other combination of features that don't fit the 'ideal'.

I look forward to the day when there is no one singular beauty ideal, regardless of how inclusive that ideal is.

(eurocentric as a term is somewhat confusing to me - europeans can be a diverse looking bunch. Italians, Spaniards, Germans, Finns, Turks, Irish, Russians - there's a variety of features, skin tones and other features in there.)

Hmm. Is that something that can ever really happen? Even within smaller communities there's an ideal. Hell even other species have "beauty ideals." I'm trying to conceptualize a society without that. I guess the idea would be that everyone is beautiful. But from a practical POV, saying everyone is beautiful strips the word of any meaning. Beauty is about the exception, not the standard.

The concept of a beauty ideal is as old as our species and I do think it'll be here as long as we are.

ETA: I think what needs to happen is we need to stop thinking of beauty as a thing of worth. Everyone wouldn't want "to be beautiful" if we didn't put such a premium on it.
 

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Very true, missesdash, and I agree. However, body image and health have an overlap as folks have to decide whether they are eating too much (the exercise component is easier to figure out).

It would be nice if we could get the models for health to match the studied recommendations for health. The percentage bodyfat and amount of musculature pictured too frequently is not healthy for a significant portion of the population.

In 'the Black community' girls are getting too big in unhealthy ways trying to achieve the perfect, large booty.

It is unrealistic to pretend that folks won't want visual references for what to do, imho. I dearly wish our fitness models modelled a greater variety of body shapes and that it were more often discussed how innate body shape makes some things too unhealthy to try to get.
 

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I like to think that Black culture had a lot to do with this. Curvy women are the ideal in our community and to be small is the kiss of death. I remember a thread awhile back where a poster said a size 6 was considered fat! Where I come from,that is unacceptably tiny.

I agree with missesdash. Ethnic features are present but it seems they are only given beauty status when attached to someone not POC. But then again,said features have top status within the various communities so that outside validation isn't required.

Very few want to be a size 6 or smaller,even though that is the coveted shape in the mainstream. I don't meant to say ALL Black women feel this way but from my experience, nobody wants to be Rihanna's size but want to be more like Ki Toy Johnson. Hell,Beyonce is barely thick according to certain standards. It's odd that Black women who are the sizes some white women covet do everything possible to become bigger! Everything from maca powder to chicken pills to thousands of squats a day to get the coveted video vixen body. My friend is a prime example of this. She's a size 2 but men give her NO play. She gets called everything from Skeletor to people asking if she's ill because she's so small. She spends so much money on the above mentioned things to become something she just doesn't have the body type to ever attain. Our White friends think she's perfect while Black friends kindly suggest some soul food to fatten her up!

It's funny how we think we are so different when it comes to beauty standards. Just as the slim blue eyed blond Victoria Secret model type is the top standard for Whites,the super thick and tiny waisted video vixen type is the top standard for Blacks. It seems that both communities struggle with an almost unattainable physicality.

I admit that I would likely die of shock of I lost my hips and butt. The loss would be too much to withstand! I think the influence of minority culture and the emphasis on thickness had helped women of other races accept their curves and realize their beauty.
 

missesdash

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I like to think that Black culture had a lot to do with this. Curvy women are the ideal in our community and to be small is the kiss of death. I remember a thread awhile back where a poster said a size 6 was considered fat! Where I come from,that is unacceptably tiny.

I agree with missesdash. Ethnic features are present but it seems they are only given beauty status when attached to someone not POC. But then again,said features have top status within the various communities so that outside validation isn't required.

Very few want to be a size 6 or smaller,even though that is the coveted shape in the mainstream. I don't meant to say ALL Black women feel this way but from my experience, nobody wants to be Rihanna's size but want to be more like Ki Toy Johnson. Hell,Beyonce is barely thick according to certain standards. It's odd that Black women who are the sizes some white women covet do everything possible to become bigger! Everything from maca powder to chicken pills to thousands of squats a day to get the coveted video vixen body. My friend is a prime example of this. She's a size 2 but men give her NO play. She gets called everything from Skeletor to people asking if she's ill because she's so small. She spends so much money on the above mentioned things to become something she just doesn't have the body type to ever attain. Our White friends think she's perfect while Black friends kindly suggest some soul food to fatten her up!

It's funny how we think we are so different when it comes to beauty standards. Just as the slim blue eyed blond Victoria Secret model type is the top standard for Whites,the super thick and tiny waisted video vixen type is the top standard for Blacks. It seems that both communities struggle with an almost unattainable physicality.

I admit that I would likely die of shock of I lost my hips and butt. The loss would be too much to withstand! I think the influence of minority culture and the emphasis on thickness had helped women of other races accept their curves and realize their beauty.


Ahhh this is all so fascinating for me. Because I'm black but I'm also (in conventional terms) a hipster. So within my group, which is a subcuture, I need to be skinny skinny skinny regardless of color. It doesn't help that I lived in Manhattan, where most people are thin and then moved to Paris where everyone is thin. SO image how skinny a Parisian hipster is supposed to be.

I'm a size four which is average here, but it would be "bad" for me to be any bigger. I can't ever imagine wanting to gain weight to be considered attractive. I've basically accepted that I'd be socially ostracized if I was any bigger than a 6.

Also, I wonder if blue eyes and blond hair is still the standard for whites? I'd say it was in the 80's. But most young white women I know (I mean those who are clearly trying to achieve a beauty ideal) want to be tan, they want hair that's light but not bleach blonde and they want full lips. The standard, for them, is "exotic" but still white.
 

missesdash

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OOooh and also, in case anyone is curious about the origin of big booty coveting:

I read a really interesting article about how it still comes back to that biologically important "hip to waist ratio" (an indicator in health and furtility in female humans). The theory was basically about how women closer to the equator more more likely to require a lot of squatting and lower body strength to "gather" and so when observing hip to waist ratio, men from these areas did so from a side view.

Women further away (europeans, etc) were observed from the front, so the emphasis is on hips wider than waist, but necessarily butt. They then showed the average preferential measurements from men of different ethnicity and it was interesting because although the measurements differed, the ratio was the same.

And as far as informal research goes, I think we've all done plenty of that :D
 

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Well, from where I'm from I've been told countless times that my round butt, small waist, hips, and bust are a good thing. I'm a size 4, but still considered curvy since I do have an hourglass shape. It's also interesting to note where the trend came from especially since it can be dated back to the 1800s. I mean, in my African studies class, which I'm glad I took, we did a study on a woman named Sarah Baartman. Her story is sad, but it also brought a lot in perspective for me in terms of what is considered beautiful. To me, size and shape shouldn't matter as long as you're healthy, but that's just me though.
 

Kitty27

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Ahhh this is all so fascinating for me. Because I'm black but I'm also (in conventional terms) a hipster. So within my group, which is a subcuture, I need to be skinny skinny skinny regardless of color. It doesn't help that I lived in Manhattan, where most people are thin and then moved to Paris where everyone is thin. SO image how skinny a Parisian hipster is supposed to be.

I'm a size four which is average here, but it would be "bad" for me to be any bigger. I can't ever imagine wanting to gain weight to be considered attractive. I've basically accepted that I'd be socially ostracized if I was any bigger than a 6.

Also, I wonder if blue eyes and blond hair is still the standard for whites? I'd say it was in the 80's. But most young white women I know (I mean those who are clearly trying to achieve a beauty ideal) want to be tan, they want hair that's light but not bleach blonde and they want full lips. The standard, for them, is "exotic" but still white.

Isn't it interesting? If my mother met you,she'd try to stuff you with soul food!

Thick will always be the gold standard in terms of Black body type beauty. Small waist,big thighs and a round behind are IT.

I agree about that standard but I don't think thickness will ever be solidified in mainstream society. I consider it to be a fad with the Kim K& CoCo types a passing fancy. Within Black culture,I don't think this standard will ever change. Slim Black girls catch hell and that's not right,as everyone has her own beauty. My friend wants to be thick so badly!

My mother is 64 and she is amused that features once considered bad aka full lips and a robust behind are now coveted. I think hip-hop and Rap also have a lot to do with changing beauty ideals in America.
 

missesdash

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Well, from where I'm from I've been told countless times that my round butt, small waist, hips, and bust are a good thing. I'm a size 4, but still considered curvy since I do have an hourglass shape. It's also interesting to note where the trend came from especially since it can be dated back to the 1800s. I mean, in my African studies class, which I'm glad I took, we did a study on a woman named Sarah Baartman. Her story is sad, but it also brought a lot in perspective for me in terms of what is considered beautiful. To me, size and shape shouldn't matter as long as you're healthy, but that's just me though.

Ah yes, hottentot Venus. There was a French film about her last year.
 
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