Negotiating advances

I don't know if this publisher is allowing itself some negotiating room or not: some do, some don't. But there's a lot more to a good contract than the amount of the advance, and if they won't negotiate on the advance then they probably won't negotiate on other points either.

What do you think of the contract as a whole? Does it have a good reversion clause? Does it offer a reasonable royalty, and timely payments? What about any reserve against returns? Is there a commitment to any marketing plans?

If the contract is good and you're happy with the publisher, then do you think that the advance is good enough for the books? If not, are you prepared to walk away from the deal if they balk at your attempts to negotiate?

To be honest, I don't think the amount of the advance is the only issue here. I'd be wary of any publisher offering a five-book deal for a writer who isn't already a household name. Have you checked the publisher out in our BR&BC room?

Subawthor said:

Should I decline and ask for a larger advance?

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This is among the many questions that your own agent might be very well-placed to answer for you. And already having an offer from a publisher, depending on various other issues, it might be relatively easy for you to find an agent willing to advise you. (I think it's generally considered acceptable to email agents with something like "Have publisher's offer already, need an agent" in the subject-line, which may get you some fast attention).

It's perhaps not a formality that an agent will want to put in all the negotiations and advice needed, here, for their 15% of something less than $2,000 in total, but you never know. Especially if they're interested in your future potential, too, it might just be possible to net an agent quickly, in these circumstances? Just a suggestion.

Most often your advance is closely linked to the amount of money the publisher expects to make out of the book in the foreseeable future (the first hardback, paperback and ebook editions, say.) In a very simplistic manner (with largely bogus numbers), if they think they'll sell 10,000 books at £10, that means they'll take in about £45K, and your royalty cut is say 10% or £4.5K. So they will want to pay you an advance in that region.

That means they will probably offer you a little bit less than that initially? Your instinct about leaving a little room for negotiation is usually going to be right. But do bear in mind that with a £2K advance you're not going to be able to beat them up to, say, £4K. (Whereas with a £20K offer an increase of £2K is going to be easier to achieve.)

It's also worth pointing out that a trade publishing contract has many, many other provisions and clauses and subrights. The advance is just one number among many.

Subawthor said:

Mr. Hack,
Thank you for your timely and valuable response. The publishing house has a good reputation and is recommended by P&E. I think the company (which specializes in sci-fi, fantasy, and horror) is making a push toward publishing books in a series. I appreciate your point about publishing multiple novels from a relatively unknown author, however. That thought crossed my mind as well. The contract looks good and I honestly am more interested in promotion/marketing than advances. I have a great job and writing is a second income. I just wasn't sure if it was standard for a writer to try negotiating for as lucrative an advance as possible. I'm sure agents do this for the authors they represent, but they have more clout in the situation. Again, your insight is much appreciated, sir.

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Is there a reason you don't have an agent? If not, now would be a good time to get one.

Quite honestly, I've never known a publisher not to offer the lowest advance they can get away with, when dealing with a writer who doesn't have an agent. Anyone good at business does exactly this. It's dumb not to.

I've also never had an agent who didn't ask for a larger advance, and who didn't get it. The publisher has said yes every time. The basic increase has been twenty-five percent. This is significant.

My guess is they like your writing, and want to sew up five books for a relatively small lump advance. This, too, is common.

The advance isn't everything, but it's still important. Here's the big thing, the worst that can possibly happen if you ask for more money is that they'll say no.

You also have firm bargaining ground. The fact that this is less per book than you received for your first book in good ammunition.

But, really, you have absolutely nothing to lost by pointing out that you aren't getting as much for these books, and asking for more. I agree with my agent. Twenty-five percent is a nice number.

Subawthor said:

Mr. Hack,
Thank you for your timely and valuable response. The publishing house has a good reputation and is recommended by P&E.

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From what I remember, P&E doesn't exactly recommend publishers: that's their default position if they haven't been told anything that would mean they marked the publisher as "not recommended". All it means, therefore, is that they've not heard of anything bad about the publisher. Which doesn't mean that nothing bad about that publisher exists.

I'm being pedantic, I know. And I might be wrong about how P&E worked. But I've seen so many writers get involved with publishers that they did check out and they thought were ok, only to realise they'd made a mistake.

I think the company (which specializes in sci-fi, fantasy, and horror) is making a push toward publishing books in a series. I appreciate your point about publishing multiple novels from a relatively unknown author, however. That thought crossed my mind as well. The contract looks good and I honestly am more interested in promotion/marketing than advances.

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But the advance that they offer is a direct indication of their interest in the books, and their willingness to invest in the books. If they're not paying much of an advance, chances are they're not going to make much of an effort to market or promote the book for you either. And if that's the case, what benefit is there to you in signing with them?

I have a great job and writing is a second income.

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That's nice for you, but it's not relevant to your question here. The publisher should treat you fairly no matter what your financial state.

Subawthor said:

Old Hack--please exchange "Ms." for "Mr." and "ma'am" for "sir". Not the first time I've stuck my tattered Nike shoe in my gaping craw!

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And you're not the first person to mistake me for a man.

*swaggers in a blokey way*

Don't worry about it. I really don't mind at all.

Subawthor said:

James,
Thank you for your words of wisdom. I've been playing the writing game for 15 years, and have come very close to securing an agent, but it just hasn't happened yet. I use all the online resources to find the best agent (as well as researching agents for popular authors with similar books), but thus far have been unsuccessful. I query pretty much every agent who represents science fiction when I've completed a novel. Do you think the chances of securing representation would be better now that I have an offer? Would it be wise to query some agents and see if they're interested? Any advice is wonderful. Thank you for your time!

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If you do want an agent, you have to consider why you've not got one yet and then work on correcting that.

If you've queried widely but haven't got any interest then your queries need work. If you've queried widely, have had numerous requests for partials and fulls but haven't got any further, then your writing needs work.

If you're in the former camp, it could be that both your queries and your writing need work but you won't know until you move into the latter camp.

If you're in the latter camp, then have you received any feedback from the rejecting agents?

You might well benefit from taking a stroll through our Share Your Work sections.

Subawthor said:

James,
Thank you for your words of wisdom. I've been playing the writing game for 15 years, and have come very close to securing an agent, but it just hasn't happened yet. I use all the online resources to find the best agent (as well as researching agents for popular authors with similar books), but thus far have been unsuccessful. I query pretty much every agent who represents science fiction when I've completed a novel. Do you think the chances of securing representation would be better now that I have an offer? Would it be wise to query some agents and see if they're interested? Any advice is wonderful. Thank you for your time!

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Your chances of securing an agent are always better after you have an offer. Only a relatively few years ago, the majority of writers got an offer first, and an agent second. The ONLY reason this changed was because so many publishers stopped looking at queries and manuscripts from writers without agents. If publishers won't look at your queries or manuscripts, you can't get an offer, so you usually have to go after the agent first.

But having an offer means an agent can earn a percentage without having to shop the book around. She just has to negotiate the contract, and she has 15% in her pocket. This is always an incentive.

You will also find out more about this publisher by letting a couple of agents know about your offer than you would doing months of research.

I disagree with Old Hack about advances. For most writers, the advance is tied to what they expect a book to earn. Period. This is based on what similar books by other new writers have earned.

Each publisher has a standard advance for a given type of book. Even the Big 6. And as huge as they are, even the Big 6 does not often offer huge advance to new writers. They use the same model. How much have similar books by new writers eared? They're big enough that one of their books will earn more than a similar book from a smaller publisher, but they still won't make you rich with the advance.

But the advance is also tied to a pure business decision which is called How Little Will the Writer Settle For? It just is.

With extremely rare exceptions, marketing for new writers comes AFTER a book starts making a splash, not before. This is even true for big 6 publishers. All a new writer can expect is to have his book in the publisher's catalog, and to have it available to the distributor. For a good book, this is enough.

If the book starts selling better than expected, you'll get more marketing dollars.

The size of the advance you're getting isn't huge, but it's not tiny, either. I'd be surprised if a bad or unscrupulous publisher would put this much advance money into books. On a comparison basis, publisher size for publisher size, a $2,000 advance from a small, or even a midsize publisher, is pretty much equal to the typical advance from one of the big 6. Maybe even a little better.

Total? Not per book?

Oh, my... You definitely need an agent for this one. Even the smaller independent presses would offer more than that for a five-book series. If you want to PM me the name of the publisher, I'd be happy to tell you if that's a standard deal for them. I know quite a few of the large and medium SF/F presses.

Jamesaritchie said:

I disagree with Old Hack about advances. For most writers, the advance is tied to what they expect a book to earn. Period. This is based on what similar books by other new writers have earned.

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James, I've been the person making the calculations on which an offer of advance is made on more than one occasion, and I don't think we're in disagreement here.

Of course an advance is based on the amount a book is expected to earn. But that doesn't mean that my previous comment is wrong; and the calculations aren't based on what similar books by other new writers have earned, they're based on what we think this particular book will earn, when considered alongside the amount of marketing we feel able to invest in that title.

Each publisher has a standard advance for a given type of book. Even the Big 6. And as huge as they are, even the Big 6 does not often offer huge advance to new writers. They use the same model. How much have similar books by new writers eared? They're big enough that one of their books will earn more than a similar book from a smaller publisher, but they still won't make you rich with the advance.

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I guess much depends on how you define "type of book". I've worked on books which have been offered low advances, and I've worked on books which have been offered astronomical advances. The types were defined by the sorts of sales we thought they'd make, which in turn was defined by all sorts of things: the efforts we put into marketing them, their place on the shelves, the time of year they were being published, and so on and so forth.

And yes, I've worked on several books which paid advances which made their debut authors rich. It does happen.

With extremely rare exceptions, marketing for new writers comes AFTER a book starts making a splash, not before. This is even true for big 6 publishers.

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No.

Publishers market all the books they publish. It doesn't matter who wrote them: they all get marketing attention. It might be marketing attention which isn't obvious to you, the writer, or to you, the reader, but those books are still marketed by their publishers. And if the publishers were to wait until after the books made a splash there'd be no point in marketing the book as it would already have made that splash, and it would be too late for the marketing machine to swing into action and have any affect at all.

All a new writer can expect is to have his book in the publisher's catalog, and to have it available to the distributor. For a good book, this is enough.

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You also need the sales team to actively sell it into bookshops and so on. This all happens. It's all marketing. And it's very effective at selling books.

The size of the advance you're getting isn't huge, but it's not tiny, either. I'd be surprised if a bad or unscrupulous publisher would put this much advance money into books. On a comparison basis, publisher size for publisher size, a $2,000 advance from a small, or even a midsize publisher, is pretty much equal to the typical advance from one of the big 6. Maybe even a little better.

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Less than $2k divided by five or six books is nowhere near the average advance paid by the Big Five.

A publisher doesn't need to be unscrupulous to be a poor choice for a writer.

I wonder if you need to read this thread a little more closely, James.

Subawthor said:

What most surprised me was that I received a $2,000 advance as a brand-new author back in 2000, yet the publishing company wants me to sign a five-book deal for around $1,300. I've done research and know the press is legitimate. They get books stocked in B&N and have a great reputation.

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That's not a reasonable offer. It just isn't. For one book, sure, I'd consider it. Not for more than one.