Middle Grade for a Newbie Writer...Could use some advice!

There are definitely gay characters in MG. Certainly don't worry about that.

I am also interested in answers on how gory MGs can get. There's no actual violence in my book, but a lot of scenes taking place after violent situations. Brains, blood and guts splattered all over the place.

Prodigy said:

Could you give me some books that have gay characters in MG?

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Stitches by Glen Huser is one, but a simple Google search should turn up several.

Prodigy said:

1. A story about a coven of witches but it is meant to have a gay character, a lot of action and violence and romance but nothing to heavy.

Sounds more YA to me.

2. A story about a forbidden romance between two princes at war...This probably couldn't be turned into YA simply because in my head a lot of violence occurs including an assault and torture etc.

?? Why does the violence make it more suited to MG than YA? You seem to be backwards here.

3. A story about Angels & Demons being trapped inside a town fighting a demon who is after their souls by trying to force them to commit suicide.

Could be anything, depends on the tone. Though picture book is probably out of the question.

4. A story about a group of friends in High School who are going through life and their issues(Coming out/falling in love, Abusive parents, Drug issues, etc etc) and how they are coming of age.

This is the most YA of them all.

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Why do you want to write middle grade? Why not just write the story you want to write and see where it falls? I don't understand why you're pigeonholing yourself at such an early stage.

Welcome, Prodigy!

It sounds like you have been doing a lot of reading and have a solid grasp of YA fiction. When compared to YA, MG fiction spans a range. Some MG books are shorter and simpler than most YA ones. Classic examples would be The Chronicles of Narnia, Charlotte's Web, or the Taran Wanderer series. A more recent one would be Three Good Deeds, a short and sweet story about a boy who turns into a goose and has to do three good deeds to turn back. It's just 17,000 words. Some MG is right up there next to YA in length and complexity, but without the same amount of "edgy" content that YA can have. Think of stuff that would interest an older or more confident reader, but which doesn't have anything specifically objectionable for younger ones. A recent example would be Wonder. It runs 73,000 words and is about a boy with severe facial abnormalities entering school for the first time.

Most of your questions fall in the realm of judgment calls rather than hard-and-fast rules. MG goes light on the romance, MG can include a surprising amount of violence as long as it is not described in overly graphic terms, and MG fiction can handle a broad range of mature themes if those themes are approached in kid-appropriate ways. The more MG fic you read, the more you will get a sense of where the lines are drawn. (Read recent books as well as classics.)

Check out Five, Six, Seven, Nate for a probably-gay MC. I think that just came up in another thread, too.

It does sound to me like most of your ideas will naturally tend toward YA. But that's not really something to stress too hard over early on. You may be able to assess that more clearly as your stories unfold.

Happy writing!

Based on what you've written in your post, I'd say your ideas are either YA or upper MG (where you'll usually see characters somewhere from 12 to 14). Upper MG can hit on a lot of the same themes as YA, but usually in a more parent-approved manner. At that age, many parents are still choosing what their kids read.

In upper MG, I wouldn't have an issue with some making out. Violence and character deaths are also completely okay. By that age, kids can usually handle those things.

For cursing, you could probably get away with hell and damn in upper MG, but not in lower MG. That, of course, is ultimately up to the publisher.

If I'm thinking of MG in terms of movie ratings, lower MG would be G or PG. Upper MG could be PG and some PG-13 (no nudity, though). If you go into R territory, you're not writing MG anymore.

So if your work is upper PG-13, it's not longer MG? I don't encourage violence, but I don't exactly drop the curtain before the land mine blows. That just takes away from the experience to me.

JustSarah said:

So if your work is upper PG-13, it's not longer MG? I don't encourage violence, but I don't exactly drop the curtain before the land mine blows. That just takes away from the experience to me.

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It all really depends on how you describe the violence. You have to remember that many upper MG readers are not yet buying their own books.

I wouldn't drop the curtain either. It's probably just a matter of how graphic you make the violence.

As an example, I like to use the Cruciatus Curse in Harry Potter. I believe that Goblet of Fire is still upper MG, but it features torture. However, the Cruciatus Curse is a rather non-graphic type of torture. There is also an on-screen character death.

You probably just don't want to go all gore-fest.

Oh right I agree with that. Truth be told I'm getting more squeamish about outright gore myself. Not sure why. I would also say develop characters first, then add gore if it needs it.

I used to make it gory, but the characters might as well have been walking planks. Adding gore in the situation isn't necessarily going to make a more horrific.

Prodigy said:

You're right...i got it confused. The torture/violence is suitable for a YA or possibly NA type of story since it has torture, violence and a possible rape within it.

By nature i am a person who HAS to know what my end result is...i can easily go with the flow but i need a clear beginning and an end and i let everything else fall in between.

So I like to have a general idea...Am i writing the book as a story for Middle Grade(Upper) for Middle School and younger high school or Edgy YA(high School/College aged).

Case in point my #4 idea above would not work in a Middle Grade setting....it's YA. No way about that since it features multiple gay characters dealing with their sexuality in different ways(including more physical ways), Characters involved with older characters, abuse, etc etc

The coven of witches could better fit YA but i could tone down the violence and romance and make it more suitable for Middle Grade.

Why do I want to write MG? Well for starters, I think young teens really could use strong Male influences, especially a Gay Character but also it is a new territory for me and a new challenge to face.

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I think your definitions are a little off. Your #4 doesn't work primarily because it's a high-school setting.

Similarly, MG audience isn't high school and YA audience isn't college. Kids read up, not down.

Don't get me wrong; I agree with the other posters that you'd probably be better off just writing your story and then figuring where it fits, but if you're trying to plan this way, don't plan for MG readers in h.s..

If you're a writer who prefers planning first - thinking through your characters' personalities and outlining a plot first - and it sounds as though you are, I think it's wise you're trying to discern the subtle differences between upper MG and YA before starting. My first attempt ran into trouble for not doing enough research.

I wrote what I thought was a young YA - suitable for ages 12-14 or so. The plot was tightly woven between the protagonist's external goal and her internal desire (emotional wound moving towards understanding and healing). Betrayal was a part of her journey, first love was a part of her growth. etc. I thought I knew enough about the differences between MG and YA when I started and I surmised mine was in the YA camp; thus I felt free to write it to about 90K words or so (I had to chop 13K just to get it to 90. It includes fantasy; otherwise I'd recommend keeping YA to 85K or less as a newbie. Anything higher and you risk agents auto-rejecting it on length alone).

But then after I'd written it and polished it, I sought beta feedback. While much of it was positive, a little trend showed up among some of my betas: the main story - the protagonist's external goal - seemed too juvenile for the rest of it, which bordered on heavy. I stepped back from it and considered the critique. I acknowledged to myself that my inspirations for the main story were MG, but the inspirations for the inner story were YA. I'd been a little too quick to launch into writing it; I should have read more current MG and YA and more articles on the difference. I had to decide which direction to take it in. It was far too long as an MG debut. I decided I'd rather keep the more juvenile story and soften the character's internal journey. By doing that, I've cut 10K words already and I'm shooting for 78K (high for MG but not without precedent; it's more in the upper MG camp anyway).

My point is: You can write a marvelous story first and figure it all out later, but if you weave a story that has elements that clearly belong in MG with elements that can only belong in YA, you may have a big rewrite to deal with. The best thing you can do is read a lot of both MG and YA. Along the way, visit AR Bookfinder as a way to see whether the books you're reading fall under MG, MG+, or YA as well as their word count. It's a great resource for learning this stuff, although you'll find other sites, such as Amazon, will list the target ages differently sometimes.

Also, Mary Kole was a highly-regarded agent of MG and YA not long ago before she shifted into a different career. I can recommend her book, Writing Irresistible Kidlit: The Ultimate Guide to Crafting Fiction for Young Adult and Middle Grade Readers. There are also numerous blog articles on the subject you can find through a web search.

When it comes time to query your work, assuming you'll seek publication, I've read in numerous places it's not necessary to classify the manuscript as anything but MG or YA - no need for 'upper' and 'lower.' The agent will decide. But still, you do yourself a favor to write it so that it's believably one or the other and have a suitable word count. Especially while you're just breaking in.

Good luck!

Prodigy, I understand your enthusiasm and welcome it, but slow down! You'll get more answers browsing the board and learning from others—even using the search function. More importantly, you'll get answers by reading the sort of books you like, and then writing.

There are no right answer for these questions (although all your themes seem to fall in the YA category), so the only way to find out is to write what you want. That said, you can get away with more of the things you seem to be interested in YA. Write, then decide.

I agree with those saying just write your story, and I want to add, don't target a certain age group because you think they need something. That smacks of having an agenda and agents (not to mention MG readers) can sense that a mile off.

I'd suggest you start reading MG - a ton of it. Read MG with witches and gay characters and kingdoms at war - and then read the same topics in YA and see where the feel of your writing fits. It sounds to me like your ideas are really YA, but you're pursuing MG because of what you think those readers need. But you and your readers would be best served if you write to the age level that really suits your stories.

I just wanted to add that there's a good article on this very subject in the May/June 2014 issue of Writer's Digest. It's written by a YA author/agent.

Prodigy said:

Alright thanks everyone

I will definitely be reading some more Middle grade books(I already read plenty of YA) to get a better understanding of the audience. I do learn well from essentially observing and analyzing

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That's very wise. We can talk about it from here to eternity, but nothing substitutes for reading a LOT of published middle grade to get a feel for the voice, language, level of complexity, etc. Plus, it's fun... you get to read awesome stories and call it research.

You will love it, I didn't realize I liked it so much before I read a few myself.

Just want to clarify that middle school kids read YA Books. Middle grade books are for readers ages 8-12, give or take. Upper may be more like 10-14.