Upper case or lower case?

efreysson

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I'm an Icelander currently translating one of my fantasy novels into English. I do plan on having it proof-read by a professional before I epub, but I would still like advice on something:

When capitalizing the first letter in a noun, should that also apply to "the" in front?

I'm in particular thinking of two important things in my story: A harsh, untamed land simply known as The Outskirts, and a mystical urge to destiny which dominates those who get it, known as The Call.

Should it be "the Outskirts" and "the Call"?
 

NRoach

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Generally, the "The" is capitalised; that's the general usage. I suppose some publishers might prefer it not to be, but it's such a minor change that it doesn't really matter.
 

Bufty

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I wouldn't capitalise the 'the' in the Nevada Desert or the River Thames or the Houses of Parliament etc., unless it was the opening of a sentence.

Whether you capitalise any preceding 'the' or not in the fictional instances quoted is up to you. It's not desperate and I doubt a reader would be concerned one way or the other although using 'The' every time these two things are mentioned may become a bit irritating and unnecessary.

I'm an Icelander currently translating one of my fantasy novels into English. I do plan on having it proof-read by a professional before I epub, but I would still like advice on something:

When capitalizing the first letter in a noun, should that also apply to "the" in front?

I'm in particular thinking of two important things in my story: A harsh, untamed land simply known as The Outskirts, and a mystical urge to destiny which dominates those who get it, known as The Call.

Should it be "the Outskirts" and "the Call"?
 
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Jamesaritchie

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"The" should only be capitalized if it's the first word of a sentence, or of it's actually part of the official name of something.
 

blacbird

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Generally, the "The" is capitalised; that's the general usage.

No, it's not. You would not capitalize the "the" in "the Prime Minister of Great Britain" or "the President of the United States" or "the River Thames", as typical examples. Aside, of course, at the beginning of a sentence, as JAR has noted.

caw
 

NRoach

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No, it's not. You would not capitalize the "the" in "the Prime Minister of Great Britain" or "the President of the United States" or "the River Thames", as typical examples. Aside, of course, at the beginning of a sentence, as JAR has noted.

caw

Unless the "The" is part of the name, as it appears to be in the given examples. JAR notes that as well.
 

blacbird

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Unless the "The" is part of the name, as it appears to be in the given examples. JAR notes that as well.

Yeah, but you did say "generally" that was the case. Which is "generally" not. You would only do that when the "the" is specifically part of the title of something, which it isn't, "generally."

the Mississippi River
the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court
the Dark Lord of the Sith
the French Riviera

etc.

caw
 

Chase

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Yeah, but you did say "generally" that was the case. Which is "generally" not. You would only do that when the "the" is specifically part of the title of something, which it isn't, "generally."

the Mississippi River
the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court
the Dark Lord of the Sith
the French Riviera

Exactly. JAR correctly refers to special cases, such as The Chase, a book title I enjoy for the obvious reason, and The Kid when referring to Jackie Coogan by his popular nickname.
 

thedark

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I've often wondered this very same thing... great thread.

Can I piggy-back with a similar question?

My MCs are based in New York City, and often in conversation they'll refer to the City. I don't capitalize the "the" (see, learned that part!), but I have been capitalizing City when they are referencing New York City specifically. Thoughts on doing so in general narrative or dialogue? And, just to spice up the question a bit, there are also newspaper article excerpts in the novel where the same question arises. Would the New York Times capitalize City when referred to in the same way? I suspect not, but it seems awfully sad in all lowercase.

Suggestions?
 

Roxxsmom

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I always thought it would be capitalized if "The" was part of the actual name, rather than an article that simply precedes the name.

But hmm, I suppose it can be one of those style things that varies.

I don't know about New York, but people do capitalize The City when they use the term to refer to SF out here in CA. I'm guessing that's done to differentiate it from other cities in the area.
 
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blacbird

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An example, in English, where the article would be properly capitalized, is in reference to the Dutch city "The Hague". We have a similar situation in city "The Dalles" in the state of Washington. But, unless the article is formally part of the name, as in the title of a book, you capitalize only the proper noun (and relevant modifiers), not the article.

caw
 

Chase

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The Dalles is in Oregon.

Doesn't close count? The city's only across the river from Washington state, and the The Dalles themselves are the treacherous rapids touching the shores of both states. :D
 

Nymtoc

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We have an interesting situation here in New York City. One of the city's five boroughs is called the Bronx. "The" is an essential part of the borough's name (analagous to The Hague or The Dalles). Nobody talks about living in or visiting "Bronx." It's always "the Bronx," but "the" is almost never capitalized. I can't explain it. :cool:
 

Jamesaritchie

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We have an interesting situation here in New York City. One of the city's five boroughs is called the Bronx. "The" is an essential part of the borough's name (analagous to The Hague or The Dalles). Nobody talks about living in or visiting "Bronx." It's always "the Bronx," but "the" is almost never capitalized. I can't explain it. :cool:

"The" should be capitalized in The Bronx. Unlike all the other boroughs, "The" is part of the name because The Bronx got it's name because The Bronx River runs through it, so "The" is an official part of the name, which means you're supposed to capitalize "The".

The reason many don't capitalize "The" is simple. They don't know the rules, or even know that "The" actually I part of the name. Oddly, I just watched a TV program about the Bronx last night, and they actually thought this subject was important enough to devote about five minutes of the show to the name.
 

Nymtoc

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"The" should be capitalized in The Bronx. Unlike all the other boroughs, "The" is part of the name because The Bronx got it's name because The Bronx River runs through it, so "The" is an official part of the name, which means you're supposed to capitalize "The".

The reason many don't capitalize "The" is simple. They don't know the rules, or even know that "The" actually I part of the name. Oddly, I just watched a TV program about the Bronx last night, and they actually thought this subject was important enough to devote about five minutes of the show to the name.

Even the Old Gray Lady can't make up her mind:

"Martin Kleinman grew up in the Bronx...." The New York Times, 9/18/14

“It’s hard to get people to come to the Bronx,” said Charles Feit, the founder and chief executive of OnForce Solar...." The New York Times, 9/25/14

"Mayor de Blasio skipped a Columbus Day parade in The Bronx at his own peril Sunday, as residents chided him for showing off his ethnic pride only when it suits his political ends...." The New York Times, 10/12/14

:roll:
 

Jamesaritchie

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Even the Old Gray Lady can't make up her mind:

"Martin Kleinman grew up in the Bronx...." The New York Times, 9/18/14

“It’s hard to get people to come to the Bronx,” said Charles Feit, the founder and chief executive of OnForce Solar...." The New York Times, 9/25/14

"Mayor de Blasio skipped a Columbus Day parade in The Bronx at his own peril Sunday, as residents chided him for showing off his ethnic pride only when it suits his political ends...." The New York Times, 10/12/14

:roll:

Yeah, I see it both ways in the strangest places, but sometimes you just need to look in a dictionary, or an encyclopedia, or a map, rather than guessing.
 

blacbird

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"The" should be capitalized in The Bronx. Unlike all the other boroughs, "The" is part of the name because The Bronx got it's name because The Bronx River runs through it, so "The" is an official part of the name, which means you're supposed to capitalize "The".

The reason many don't capitalize "The" is simple. They don't know the rules, or even know that "The" actually I part of the name. Oddly, I just watched a TV program about the Bronx last night, and they actually thought this subject was important enough to devote about five minutes of the show to the name.

And you just got it wrong. Along with that other thing bolded above.

And we don't capitalize "the" in "the Mississippi River", so why should we capitalize "the" in "The Bronx River"? I'm not actually arguing one way or the other, but I fergit who said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

caw
 
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