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Mundania Press / PhazE / New Classics Press

victoriastrauss

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As I've noted farther upstream in this thread, I have received complaints from Mundania authors. Anyone who wants to know the substance of the complaints is welcome to contact me: [email protected]

The award is the SFWA Service Award. It's a real honor, and I'm thrilled!

- Victoria
 

herdon

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No, these are far from a writer's only options. The idea that there are major publishers and vanity/POD is false, false, false. There is a huge mid-size group called independent trade publishers. We're the little, independent spuds who have national distribution, sales teams, print runs, reviews in the trade magazines and quality product - far more than any POD can accomplish.

Unfortunately, I think the small-to-mid-sized publishers with real distribution, marketing, etc, can be quite a bit more difficult to find. It's not hard to figure out which large publishers to send your stuff to based on your genre, but figuring out which of the smaller publishers have real distribution and actually know what they are doing can be more difficult.
 

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Unfortunately, I think the small-to-mid-sized publishers with real distribution, marketing, etc, can be quite a bit more difficult to find. It's not hard to figure out which large publishers to send your stuff to based on your genre, but figuring out which of the smaller publishers have real distribution and actually know what they are doing can be more difficult.
I disagree, Havlen. If authors can bump into Mundania or any of the other POD presses, they certainly can bump into good indie trades just as easily. It's not like we're hiding under rocks. We populate all the same publisher databases as everyone else, and people inquire about small indie trades all the time. The information is out there if you're willing to do the research.

Ostensibly authors research anyone they query, so they're going to figure out pretty fast what kind of company they are. Most POD websites pretty much give themselves away.Others, like Mundania, have very good websites that give few clues that they're POD, so authors have to get in touch with the publisher and ask questions. And they also have to ask around, which brings us to the Water Cooler. Yes, this takes time, but it were easy, it wouldn't be worth doing.

I'm of the opinion that anyone who commits to cranking out a manuscript owes it to themselves to place it in the best hands. Isn't it far more rewarding to have your book placed with an excellent indie trade publisher that will get your book into all the right places rather than a POD who doesn't even print ARCs or do any real promotion and zip distribution?
 

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Priceless.

Once again you’ve talked about all the small independent presses “out there.” I gotta tell you that after a year of searching, I find the pickings in the Sci-fi, fantasy realm are slim indeed. Your small press doesn’t do fantasy, and neither do most of the others. There are good, logical, financial reasons for this. (The gist of another thread perhaps.) The authors that gravitate to mundania really don’t have that many choices. The few non-pod doors that open say they publish maybe five books in a good year. Even non-literary authors would like to be published, and that’s why Mundiana, even with their poor reputation, still gets attention. That said, I was more relived than upset at my rejection from them--I didn’t need to be the one to make a no-win decision.
 

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I agree with Priceless1 that the mid-size indies would be the perfect solution, but as other posters have noted, there are only a handful at best in the spec fic world.
 

priceless1

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The authors that gravitate to mundania really don’t have that many choices. The few non-pod doors that open say they publish maybe five books in a good year. Even non-literary authors would like to be published, and that’s why Mundiana, even with their poor reputation, still gets attention. That said, I was more relived than upset at my rejection from them--I didn’t need to be the one to make a no-win decision.
Having few choices justifies a poor choice? I'm not seeing the logic here, John. Not all manuscripts should be published, and that's my main problem with vanity and POD; they create an air of entitlement, that everyone deserves to see their work in print. Well, no they don't, and it's called the marketplace. It's called quality. It's called competition.

Vanity and PODs create products where there is no demand, and this is why their overall reputation is less than desirable. Do authors want their hard work to be associated with that kind reputation?

I don't know the SF/Fantasy realm and have no idea about good indie trade publishers, but this is where research comes in. If, at the end of the day, no one wants the manuscript, then maybe it's better off in a desk rather than being published poorly.
 

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Yeowch! A new first for me--rejected and shot down by a publisher I didn’t even query!

By-now and good luck with that Karma thingy.
 

Phoenix Fury

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Having few choices justifies a poor choice? I'm not seeing the logic here, John. Not all manuscripts should be published, and that's my main problem with vanity and POD; they create an air of entitlement, that everyone deserves to see their work in print. Well, no they don't, and it's called the marketplace. It's called quality. It's called competition.

Vanity and PODs create products where there is no demand, and this is why their overall reputation is less than desirable. Do authors want their hard work to be associated with that kind reputation?

I don't know the SF/Fantasy realm and have no idea about good indie trade publishers, but this is where research comes in. If, at the end of the day, no one wants the manuscript, then maybe it's better off in a desk rather than being published poorly.

But to be fair--people have done their research, and there are very, VERY few of these "indie trade publishers" doing spec fiction. I don't think it's enough to say "look at the smaller houses," and then when people--who in many cases have spent years looking--ask you which ones you might recommend, respond with "I don't know" and "do your research." Behler is truly an excellent press. Really. You guys do great work. But you don't do spec fiction work, and again, there are very, very few Behlers who do.

This isn't at all an endorsement or rejection of Mundania, btw. It's just a plea to understand where these authors, who have every right to be frustrated at being told to look at small presses which don't exist in their field, are coming from.
 

priceless1

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Yeowch! A new first for me--rejected and shot down by a publisher I didn’t even query!

By-now and good luck with that Karma thingy.
John, this is hardly a shoot down or a rejection. It's reality. Perhaps I'm telling you things you don't want to hear, but I don't see this is a karmic issue. It's about educating authors so they can make the best decisions for their writing future.

Phoenix, believe it or not, I do understand the frustration. I hear it every day in emails and at writer's conferences. I guess I would rather put my ms in the desk, write a newer, better book and try to find representation rather than tossing my writing to the fates of a POD where they don't print ARCs, promote, do print runs, have quality editing or any distribution. I want the very best for all authors.
 
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IceCreamEmpress

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I agree with Priceless1 that the mid-size indies would be the perfect solution, but as other posters have noted, there are only a handful at best in the spec fic world.

Yes.

In general, the best way to go about getting fiction published is to start with the most commercial outlets and work down to the less commercial outlets, though.

Saying "I couldn't get a New York agent so I'm just going to go with Micropress X" leaves out some of the steps.

But, as you point out, not every genre has as many outlets at each step, which is why people have to research their own markets.

James Macdonald's point--that you should start looking for publishers by looking at the people who publish the books you buy and read--is a really good one.
 

Phoenix Fury

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Phoenix, believe it or not, I do understand the frustration. I hear it every day in emails and at writer's conferences. I guess I would rather put my ms in the desk, write a newer, better book and try to find representation rather than tossing my writing to the fates of a POD where they don't print ARCs, promote, do print runs, have quality editing or any distribution. I want the very best for all authors.

Sure, but to be honest, I think it's up to the authors to decide what is "best" for them. And many of them would rather not have their manuscripts unpublished just so they could say at the end of their lives that they fought the good fight. I also think you're making a bit of a leap--even from your own previous logic, where you said that a lot of books which are good enough to be published aren't by major houses because of potential lack of major sales--to suggest that the books just aren't good enough. Why? Because the genre of speculative fiction has different standards than every other one? Maybe they just need a good indie trade press to get the ball rolling, as you said before. Now, if you'd be so good as to suggest one... ;)

Also, I know that Victoria will sometimes make recommendations based on the lists and information that she has, though I certainly don't want to add to her workload (like writing her acceptance speech for the award...congratulations, Victoria)!
 
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herdon

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I disagree, Havlen. If authors can bump into Mundania or any of the other POD presses, they certainly can bump into good indie trades just as easily. It's not like we're hiding under rocks. We populate all the same publisher databases as everyone else, and people inquire about small indie trades all the time. The information is out there if you're willing to do the research.

I disagree. It doesn't take an author much research to figure out the large publishers that might be interested in their work. Generally speaking, authors write what they read, so they just need to consult their bookshelves for a good list of publishers to start researching.

The same isn't true with the small-to-mid publishers. They are mixed in with a bunch of publishers that don't have sound distribution or marketing. The author probably doesn't have a lot of books from that publisher sitting on their bookshelf -- if any at all -- so they likely came across the publisher in a list along with dozens and dozens of self-styled publishers that may or may not know what they are doing.

I don't think finding the good from the bad in that list is nearly as easy as you seem to think it is. Heck, just finding a comprehensive list of both is a minor feat in and of itself. Then weeding the good ones out of it is difficult -- especially if the author doesn't have a resource like AbsoluteWrite.

As someone else mentioned, its not like there are a huge amount of small to medium-sized publishing houses that take sci-fi/fantasy and have real distrubtion, real marketing, and a real chance to get it in brick-and-mortar stores. But you can throw a rock and hit three publishing houses who don't meet those requirements.
 

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Not to get off topic, but I WISH someone would provide a list of small and indies that put out spec fiction print books and have solid distribution. After four years of research, I'm not seeing it. I have a list of 78 potentials, and I can pick about three that have a sales force, distribution, offset, and bookstore placement. I've never seen the industry glutted with so many POD publishers in my life, as I restarted the sub process.

My agent considers about 16--19 large houses worthy of submission. After he throws a pitch at all of them, we're damn lucky to get requested fulls from 10 of them. Maybe 12 on a good day, downhill with the wind.
After that, we're done, and so is the book. From there on, it's my job to attack what's left. And 98% of what I'm seeing out there for SF, Fantasy, and Horror is POD. Mainstream/literary could be a totally different ball game, I don't know. I just know that I'm extremely hobbled in my genre.

Re Mundania (on topic): They have a pretty site, lots of links, lots of books, and lots of authors. Too many. For me, at least. They are seriously, IMO, brushing dangerously close to author mill status, if not there already. We've heard it before, and you know where it comes from: if you get enough authors to buy their own books from a HUGE stable of authors, you've got yourself quite a lucrative business plan in place. That's provided you are POD, do little editing, and print fast.

I would have thought, that by now, Mundania would have made some strides toward obtaining solid distribution and offset runs. No way, Jose. I don't see that. Just curious, has anyone seen a Mundania book in any book store, other than one where the author might have put it?

Tri
 
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Sure, but to be honest, I think it's up to the authors to decide what is "best" for them.
No argument there. But authors need to have all the information in order to make those decisions, don't you think? I'm only trying to present information that enhances that endeavor.

And many of them would rather not have their manuscripts unpublished just so they could say at the end of their lives that they fought the good fight.
This isn't about fighting the "good fight," but considering the idea that rejection after rejection may indicate the work isn't publishable. And if it isn't publishable by trade standards, then is it wise to publish it through less than ideal means?

I also think you're making a bit of a leap--even from your own previous logic, where you said that a lot of books which are good enough to be published aren't by major houses because of potential lack of major sales--to suggest that the books just aren't good enough. Why? Because the genre of speculative fiction has different standards than every other one?
No, I'm not making a leap, I'm presenting two sides of the same coin; there are many great manuscripts that are rejected by the large houses because they need a much bigger sell through. Then you have manuscripts that are rejected because they aren't publishable or have no market.
 

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I would have thought, that by now, Mundania would have made some strides toward obtaining solid distribution and offset runs.
Tri, to do what you propose vastly increases their risk. It's expensive to be a trade publisher. You're talking about distribution and print runs - that all has to be paid for up front, and that's risk. You have lots of books going out to the bookstore shelves that may or may not sell. You end up still paying for a print run of books that are now gathering dust on your warehouse shelves and paying for the print run.That's risk. If those books come tumbling back to you, you incur all the shipping charges and whatever fees the distributor may charge. That's a huge financial bite. Promotion is expensive, which adds to your risk. Now you suddenly have to be mindful of the authors you sign in order to make sure they and their books are marketable. Since there are no guarantees, that equals big risk.

PODs are all about minimizing their risk and putting it all on the shoulders of the author. Mundania would be insane to do anything other than what they're doing. And yes, my tongue is in my cheek.
 

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I don't think finding the good from the bad in that list is nearly as easy as you seem to think it is.
All I know is that many seem to find us without much trouble. They go to Publisher's Marketplace and scan the current sales in their genre, they talk to agents at the writer's conferences, they are in constant networking mode. I don't have all the answers for you, Havlen, I wish I did, but I don't. This is a tough business, but I just refuse to believe that going with a POD is preferable to continuing the search for a solid house.
 

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Not to get off topic, but I WISH someone would provide a list of small and indies that put out spec fiction print books and have solid distribution. After four years of research, I'm not seeing it. I have a list of 78 potentials, and I can pick about three that have a sales force, distribution, offset, and bookstore placement. I've never seen the industry glutted with so many POD publishers in my life, as I restarted the sub process.
If folks are unable to walk into a bookstore to determine which pubs have the distribution to get onto shelves, the next logical step would be to find out what the professional organization(s) for the genre consider to be qualifying markets. E.g. SFWA http://www.sfwa.org/org/qualify.htm#Q3
 

Phoenix Fury

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If folks are unable to walk into a bookstore to determine which pubs have the distribution to get onto shelves, the next logical step would be to find out what the professional organization(s) for the genre consider to be qualifying markets. E.g. SFWA http://www.sfwa.org/org/qualify.htm#Q3

And if folks have already walked into that bookstore many, many times and continued to find the same six or seven major houses on the shelves--and a lot of them have--then this list is indeed a good next step. Keep in mind that the vast majority of publishers on this list are either big houses (which we've already discussed) or places which require agented submissions, including well respected indies like Night Shade. And this is also missing well-respected small presses like Five Star because of the unusual arrangement it has with Tekno (although FS is getting out of the spec fiction business anyway, so that's probably not too relevant any more).

I promise you, a lot of the people to whom you're speaking have done a lot of research already. This isn't just a matter of authors not trying hard enough to find the best place for their work; it's sometimes a matter of not having enough places.
 
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Phoenix Fury

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No argument there. But authors need to have all the information in order to make those decisions, don't you think? I'm only trying to present information that enhances that endeavor.

But you're doing it without specific reference to this particular genre, and by stubbornly "refusing," as you put it, to believe that spec fiction authors don't have lots of options if only they would look for them. They don't, and they have.

This isn't about fighting the "good fight," but considering the idea that rejection after rejection may indicate the work isn't publishable. And if it isn't publishable by trade standards, then is it wise to publish it through less than ideal means?
I suppose that depends on the author in question, but I certainly agree with you that enough rejections may indicate the work isn't publishable, and that authors should shoot as high as possible. I certainly wouldn't take my work to POD unless I had absolutely no other options. But I think you're misunderstanding or unintentionally misrepresenting the market in speculative fiction by making it appear as if there is this huge middle ground between Mundania and Tor, and that's just not accurate.

No, I'm not making a leap, I'm presenting two sides of the same coin; there are many great manuscripts that are rejected by the large houses because they need a much bigger sell through. Then you have manuscripts that are rejected because they aren't publishable or have no market.
Yes. And both those situations apply in the speculative fiction market as well. When an author has the first side of the coin in many literary genres, he/she can go to a solid indie trade press like Behler. When that author has the first side of the coin in the fantasy/science fiction genre, he/she can go to...not much. That's the situation we're discussing, not the latter one in which the book simply isn't good enough to get published, period.
 
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There's also the question of niche fiction. For example, paranormal romance might be quite popular, but if the romance is between a lesbian couple, it's certainly not going to have a large enough readership to be considered "publishable by trade standards", just as fifty years ago a romance featuring a non-Caucasian couple would not have been "publishable by trade standards". The author may have no choice but to go with a small POD-type press or e-press. The question of "is it wise to publish it through less than ideal means?" in these circumstances would get a "yes" answer, IMHO.
 

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Tor, DAW, and Baen, I think are all still considered, 'small, indie' trade publishers that do SF/F/H. They're damn hard to get into. I have the extra added whammie of writing YA spec fic. And my current publisher has decided to stop publishing YA. Once my series with them is done, I'll be on the hunt again myself.
 

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And this is also missing well-respected small presses like Five Star because of the unusual arrangement it has with Tekno (although FS is getting out of the spec fiction business anyway, so that's probably not too relevant any more).

Haven't Five Star pulled out of SF/F fairly recently?
 

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Sure, I would consider Banot Press an indy. It was a one person press, that person was the author, and all other staff functions were contracted (editing, art, PR).