Like Liosse, I think those are both tropes. I can't say whether one is fantastic or not because the whole story, at least to me, is what determines that.
...throwing a whole jeep high enough to catch a fighter jet?
So IYO is there any point at which unrealism passes the border of the fantastic?
But I'm not asking anyone to set points and limits for all readers though. I think this thread might have been interpreted to have a higher concept than it does, and maybe I phrased the question poorly... my basic questions are:
1) For you, as a reader, is there some point when sheer unrealism qualifies a story as fantastic?
and
2) If yes, what is that point? For example, is 'teenage girl rips apart bear jaws and sews her shredded guts back in' fantastic? And if not, then is 'army guy works out and gets so strong he takes out an enemy fighter jet by throwing a jeep at it' fantastic?
I'm just looking for people's personal opinions on what the limits are and not a universal definition.
...throwing a whole jeep high enough to catch a fighter jet?
So IYO is there any point at which unrealism passes the border of the fantastic?
Depends on the mechanism behind throwing the jeep. If the person throwing it is superstrong because of genetics or mumbo-jumbo scientific advancements, it's science fiction.
If the person throwing it is superstrong because of magic (or blessed by god/gods, etc.), then it's fantasy.
Unreality can equal speculative fiction, if there's an underlying cause. If there is no underlying cause, then it's bad storytelling (IMNSHO).
Personal opinions are easier.
1) You're looking for the point known as 'Jumping the Shark'. I can accept a certain amount of coincidence, I can accept a certain amount of toughness and so on; I can't accept blatant violations of the laws of physics/biology/probability. Meeting your next door neighbour halfway across the world on holiday at random seems to happen; but if it happens every time you go on holiday for ten years, to different parts of the world, there needs to be a reason.
2) Teenage girl ripping apart bear jaws? Give her a big enough lever and a weak enough bear, maybe. Sews her own guts back in? She'd better have been portrayed as a tough, cool, calm and collected customer before that, and it had better take hours, hurt like hell and cost her dearly, but I could buy it.
However, someone throwing a jeep at a fighter jet and downing it? That would be the laws of physics again. Besides, a decent-sized stone could do the job if you could get it high enough at the right time, you wouldn't need more than a ton of vehicle. The problems are with an unaugmented human a) lifting the jeep, b) throwing the jeep, c) judging the relative speed of the jet, d) judging the angle of approach, e) timing everything precisely right and f) getting the pilot to fly low enough that anything someone threw could hit in the first place. There are so many variables to keep track of, including the one that says the pilot has to be an idiot to start with, that you could give the chap a rifle - or even a crossbow - and because I know what foreign objects can do to jet engines I'd still find it more believable than a man throwing a jeep and bringing down a fast jet. To me, that's not even fantasy, that's just ludicrous.
It's the kind of unrealism, not the degree, that decides whether something is fantasy or not. You could throw that jeep into space, and it still wouldn't be fantasy to me.
Despite the fact Rose was more like Superman than Conan
What if the underlying cause is that the laws of biology in that universe allow for such things to happen, would that make it a 'fantasy' universe?
I'd probably label it science fiction, if that was the only change from our world.
Kind of like faster-than-light travel. As far as we know, our universe doesn't allow for such things, so books that do are really set in another universe that does allow for FTL travel.
Throwing a jeep wouldn't bother me, if there was a reason for the ability.
If there's no hint that the world is different than ours, and someone picks up a jeep and throws it in a novel, yes, that would trip off my suspension of disbelief, unless everyone else in the novel is equally amazed and there's an explanation later that solves this puzzle for the readers and the characters. If there's not, then I'll get upset and chuck the book against the wall.
If there is a hint that the world is different than ours (i.e., superheros are real), then I have no issue with someone chucking a jeep.
The thing is, if you trip my suspension of disbelief, I do not slide over to, "Oh, it's fantasy." I slide to, "Oh, it's crappy writing." I'm quite willing to suspend my disbelief for fantasy novels. I do it all the time. But the world must be internally consistent. I can handle magical realism just fine, but then again, the world is set up so that the liminal is possible and normal. If the world is set up so that only normal is normal, and then the author throws in gratuitous weirdness, then: book-->wall.
So what would it be? Superhero fiction (which IMO is either sci-fi or fantasy, or both, unless the heroes are non super-powered)? What kind of unrealism is required for fantasy IYO?
I'm surprised by the reactions to the jeep example. For me, if I saw somebody throw a jeep in a story (if they consistently display the strength to do so), it would seem so over-the-top unrealistic that I would instinctively consider it 'fantastic'.
It's not fantastic, just ridiculous. Someone throwing a jeep to hit a jet-plane is not going to targeted at a Fantasy audience. Unless there's a whole Urban Fantasy background setting. But you haven't implied that there is.
I'm not really asking about the audience... ridiculous or not, if you had to give a genre, what would it be?
I mean technically wouldn't you classify a Wonder Woman comic as basically fantasy, and a Superman comic basically sci-fi?
I'd classify them as speculative fiction, and be done with it.
It's hairs at that point.
I'm not really asking about the audience... ridiculous or not, if you had to give a genre, what would it be?
I mean technically wouldn't you classify a Wonder Woman comic as basically fantasy, and a Superman comic basically sci-fi?
I wouldn't put genres on a continuum of unrealism at all because the approach matters too much. You might be able to get a continuum of approaches, though that'd be hard to quantify. Your initial examples work fine for that.glutton said:So IYO is there any point at which unrealism passes the border of the fantastic?
There's a pretty big difference between "fantastic" and "fantasy."glutton said:I'm surprised by the reactions to the jeep example. For me, if I saw somebody throw a jeep in a story (if they consistently display the strength to do so), it would seem so over-the-top unrealistic that I would instinctively consider it 'fantastic'.
1) Yes.1) For you, as a reader, is there some point when sheer unrealism qualifies a story as fantastic?
2) It depends on the book.2) If yes, what is that point?
Here's where I start to feel tetchy about the discussion, because here's where it seems like you're asking us to give our opinions on your book, and we haven't read your book. We can't judge it. The only explanation you've given for why this stuff happens is, "Well, it just does."For example, is 'teenage girl rips apart bear jaws and sews her shredded guts back in' fantastic?
The thing is, if you trip my suspension of disbelief, I do not slide over to, "Oh, it's fantasy." I slide to, "Oh, it's crappy writing." I'm quite willing to suspend my disbelief for fantasy novels. I do it all the time. But the world must be internally consistent. I can handle magical realism just fine, but then again, the world is set up so that the liminal is possible and normal. If the world is set up so that only normal is normal, and then the author throws in gratuitous weirdness, then: book-->wall.
Alternatively, a different tone could take it into heroic myth. I expect reality to be relaxed if I'm reading about a character like Beowulf or Hercules.
The only explanation you've given for why this stuff happens is, "Well, it just does."
To me what you have described sounds like wish-fulfillment fantasy.
The explanation I've given is that the universe it happens in has different laws of biology than ours.
There's a massive difference between the fantasy genre and wish-fulfillment fantasy. One may echo through into the other and the edges may blur, but you're conflating them as though they're the same thing - and they aren't. In the process, you're insulting a lot of people who aren't writing wish-fulfillment fantasy, and even those who are who're taking care to keep it within the bounds of possibility in the worlds they've chosen to create - and you're getting a harsh reaction from us because of it. You'd probably get a similar reaction if you walked into Historical and asked them if you could have Romulus, Spartacus, Ben Hur, Jesus and Pope John Paul II meet the same ordinary bloke - I mean, they're all history and something to do with the Romans, right?
You're redefining the genre we love in order to make your point, and you're giving the impression that you perceive fantasy as 'lesser' than you because of the point you just made. Stop it. If you want a debate we can have one, but if you want to make a straw man to attack, go and do it somewhere else.
I didn't say all fantasy is wish-fulfillment fantasy, just that the latter should qualify as 'fantasy' of some type... why so defensive about it? How does my point insinuate that fantasy is 'lesser'... than ME? Insulting? What is even being 'attacked'? Refining the genre - so we're not allowed to have our own opinions of where the edges lie? I don't know how you can be riled up so easily by differing opinions by what should be included in a genre.
I could act all 'angry' that some don't feel superhuman warriors qualify as fantasy and objectively, it wouldn't be any less valid. I find it a little unimaginative that you define 'wish-fulfillment fantasy' as strictly inferior to other forms of fantasy (by saying it's an insult to even associate it with them) and so strongly oppose a not traditionally considered form (tall tales) being included in fantasy.