Ask-a-Poet

William Haskins

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so here's an idea. if it takes off, super. if not, let it sink.

i was thinking that we could establish an organic and open-invitation panel of poets to whom specific questions about their views on the craft could be asked.

it would in no way imply that any of the panelists have a monopoly on poetic wisdom or talent (especially as any poet who has posted original work in the critique section can join), but it could serve as a nice central location for the thoughts and opinions of a variety of AW poets.

so here's how it'll work: at the bottom of this post will be a list of panelists. it'll start with just me (and that will be awkward), so please feel free to join me.

TO JOIN THE PANEL:


shoot me a PM, or even click the reputation icon on this post and simply as to be included. i'll add you to the list of panelists below and other poets/visitors to the forum can begin asking questions of you.

TO ASK A PANELIST A QUESTION:


in order to catch the scanning eye, please write "a question for" followed by your chosen panelist(s)' names in the title line above the post field.

TO ANSWER A QUESTION:

panelists should reference the person who asked the question in their response, along with the post #, e.g. "to poetinahat (re: post 27)"

anyway, that's it. maybe it can stimulate some debate, or just some nice compare/contrast viewpoints.

======================================

THE PANEL SO FAR:

william haskins
poetinahat
Magdalen
kborsden
kdnxdr

Ambrosia
dobiwon
Brandt
Sarita
Norman D Gutter
 
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poetinahat

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A question for William

Excellent idea. I hope that, now it's up the flagpole, there will be salutes aplenty.

Now then, my question, one which I accept is often asked and more often answered:

Is a string of text a poem simply because the author says it is?

or, in simpler terms:

I wrote this, and I say it's a poem. Am I right by definition?

And the corollary:

If not, what [in your view] distinguishes a poem from prose?
 
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William Haskins

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to poetinahat (re post 2)

Excellent idea. I hope that, now it's up the flagpole, there will be salutes aplenty.

i just saw your rep point. thank you for joining the panel.

Now then, my question, one which I accept is often asked and more often answered:

Is a string of text a poem simply because the author says it is?

no.

or, in simpler terms:

I wrote this, and I say it's a poem. Am I right by definition?

yes. because the mona lisa and the finger painting my 2 year old created are both, by definition, paintings.

but anyone discussing painting with any real level of seriousness will implicitly accept a sharp distinction.


And the corollary:

If not, what distinguishes a poem from, well, anything else?

different things for different people, but i would submit that there is finite pool of characteristics from which the poet can draw: metaphor, rhyme, assonance and alliteration and any number of formal structures, etc

some combination of these elements employed as a vehicle for some desire for conceptual transcendence, for me, makes a poem a poem.
 
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Perks

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And can we pose a general question to all the panelists for a variety of answers, or would that dork up the format?
 

William Haskins

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happy to announce that poetinahat has now been added to the panel.

thanks, rob.
 

William Haskins

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a question (technically two) for poetinahat

do you have a general idea of the eventual length of a poem when you put pen to paper?

what do you believe should dictate length?
 

poetinahat

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to william (re post 7)

do you have a general idea of the eventual length of a poem when you put pen to paper?

Yes. Sometimes it's discrete, say if I've set out to write a sestina.

Other times, it's a range. I might imagine a pantoum to be four or six stanzas. In those cases, the final length is determined by the poem itself. When I think it's complete, it's done.

When I'm not writing to a form, my image of length is more general, and may be within a broader range (10-20 lines, 20-50 lines, etc.). But in those cases, I don't set a line target anyway; it's just what I expect I'll finish with. I don't set line counts as a target.

I know my answer presupposes another issue: which comes first, form or content? I'll hold my fire on that one.

what do you believe should dictate length?

This question reminds me of an exchange from an old film about Michaelangelo. In this scene, Michaelangelo is up on the scaffolding, painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling:

"Michaelangelo! When will you make an end of it?"

"When I'm finished!"

I have a great appreciation for well-framed poems: they are complete unto themselves, they are coherent, and they stop when they're done. If there are loose ends, they are intended and well laid out.

The poem and the reader should finish together.
 

Magdalen

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"The poem and the reader should finish together." PNHT

Sounds like a love affair.

this is worth its weight in gold.

thanks.

Yes. Sometimes it's discrete, say if I've set out to write a sestina.

. . .snip. . . Michaelangelo is up on the scaffolding, painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling:

"Michaelangelo! When will you make an end of it?"

"When I'm finished!"

I have a great appreciation for well-framed poems: they are complete unto themselves, they are coherent, and they stop when they're done. If there are loose ends, they are intended and well laid out.

The poem and the reader should finish together.

Will post again later! Very interesting thread I'm glad I found!
 

poetinahat

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different things for different people, but i would submit that there is finite pool of characteristics from which the poet can draw: metaphor, rhyme, assonance and alliteration and any number of formal structures, etc

some combination of these elements employed as a vehicle for some desire for conceptual transcendence, for me, makes a poem a poem.

That's a wonderfully concise and clear definition. Precise, yet inclusive. Thank you, William.
 

KTC

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What a great idea! ;-)
 

William Haskins

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New Panelists

very pleased to announce the additions of Magdalen and kborsden to the panel.
 

KTC

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Mighty awesome panel! (-:
 

kborsden

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Question for Poetinahat:

In discussing what constitutes a poem, do you believe the purpose of the poem, or of poetry in general outweighs any other description of individual elements such as imagery, form, figurative/linguistic devices and phonology?

And, if so (for both William and Rob), what do you see as being the true purpose of poetry?

(for Mag, Rob and William). Is that purpose what we see poetry doing today? Or can the role of poetry evolve/devolve?
 

William Haskins

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to kborsden, re: post 17

And, if so (for both William and Rob), what do you see as being the true purpose of poetry?

i see the purpose of poetry simply as human communication that transcends the banal. in a world increasingly consumed with small-talk, logistical planning of modern life and the struggles of daily tedium, poetry offers a glimpse into our deeper selves, whether it takes the form of exaltation or anguish.

(for Mag, Rob and William). Is that purpose what we see poetry doing today? Or can the role of poetry evolve/devolve?

poetry can only inhabit the being of those who invite it into their lives. and that is an ever-shrinking population.

it's been increasingly superceded, and co-opted, by other media that has watered down its meaning and its value, from greeting cards to commercial jingles to popular music.

it is an ever-dimming light and will probably one day be fully extinguished, smothered by less challenging pursuits, but i like to think there's a quiet nobility in keeping the torch burning for as long as possible.
 
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Perks

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Question for the entire panel

As someone who writes mostly prose, with its longer word-leash and inherent allowance for explanation, I'm often frustrated by my poetic results. I write a poem and many-to-most readers don't get it.

Now there's no way around the fact that this is almost entirely my fault. I'm simply not a very good poet. But beyond that, for everyone, there's often the risk in poetry that the reader will lose his way in a metaphor or miss an implied connection. Because poetry is not laid out in workaday speech patterns, it requires more participation from the reader than does most prose.

So my question is: is this something you worry about when writing poetry? On a scale from one to ten, how attached are you to the idea of the reader having the intended experience? Or is it more about crafting the thing, and the reader's interpretation being viewed as an entirely separate exercise?
 

William Haskins

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to perks (re: post #19)

On a scale from one to ten, how attached are you to the idea of the reader having the intended experience? Or is it more about crafting the thing, and the reader's interpretation being viewed as an entirely separate exercise?

i'm attached to it on the level of a 10, but with eyes wide open that it is the ideal, and may not (probably won't) be achieved.

i think a poet should strive to convey the full range of his or her intentions, in all their simplicity or complexity, but i also think that a proficient poet can operate at multiple levels of meaning/significance, so that there exist different strata of "getting it."

because, just as in conversation when one asks "you know what i mean?", any answer in the affirmative is delivered through the prism of the respondent's life experience and intellectual grasp. no one ever "gets it" 100%, and that is the beauty (and perhaps the curse) of human individuality.

all we can do is build bridges as solidly as we can between ourselves and our readers, and then hope they can cross them, but it has to be with the realization that them not doing so can be a result of a lack of will (or capacity) to do so on the reader's part—or shoddy construction on our part.
 
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ajc

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I have no questions. Just wanted to say this is a cool thread.
 

William Haskins

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a question for kborsden

you are a vocal advocate, and a regular practitioner, of formal verse.

is this because you view it as an indicator of the discipline/education-level/pedigree of the poet?

or

do you feel that formal poetry better serves the reader (whether or not they consciously/intellectually recognize the form)?

or

do you feel that it is beneficial to the bloodline of poetry to keep various forms alive in the interests of cultural preservation?

or

all, some or none of these?
 

kborsden

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RE: William (post#22)

Excellent question.

To be honest, it’s a smidgen of all those answers you offer, bud, but more completely:

Unlike many other poets who adhere to formal theory, I don’t think free verse is simplistic or easy or that it requires less skill or poetic ability. I can state with conviction that free verse requires much more skill than just thrusting words at a sheet of paper with total disregard for metre. I also recognise the purpose or reasons why I at times choose it above formal structure – but I make those choices based on my personal knowledge of formality. I can appreciate well-written free verse because of my understanding of formal theory, but I gained my knowledge of such theory because of my love for poetry on the whole.

Verse forms have declined over the last years with steadily fewer large or well known publications accepting or publishing. I believe this is the result of a misconception; a false belief that structured, metric poetry is stale or forceful, somehow imposing regulation and rigidity on the poet. This is far from true, however much the academics and scholars drum their ‘rules’. When writing formal verse, I bend and break the rules, I play with form and twist theory – I experiment and seek out the liberties in formal verse, because writing to form is no guarantee for quality or poetic prowess. It’s true that free verse can allow the poet to hide a lack of skill behind the absence of structured metric nuance, but equally true that metrical structure can be used to curtain a lack of imagination behind convention.

There are a few home-truths to consider when regarding free verse too. Free verse is not new. In fact, the younger of the two is arguably formal verse. We need to ask why poetry became formalised, what is the point of it – certainly not to restrict the poet or whittle out the less poetic minded, or bar certain individuals from writing. Standardisation should be seen as a guideline for tried and tested methods, no more, no less. No elitist bullshit. Forget the bullshit, embrace the verse, recognise the attention to detail, nothing more.

Beyond this, what is the reality in the difference between them? Free verse intends a method of poetic composition that embraces the freedom of language without the (supposed) restraints (such as metre) of its counterpart, but is identical in its purpose and ideology for the greater part; formal verse defines poetry as something separate from prose in how it establishes rhythm and cadence through its use of metre, but for all other aspects of expression such as imagery and figurative devices, is identical in its ideology to free verse.

Walt Whitman is often celebrated as the originator of English free verse poetry. However, as I stated earlier, free verse under many names has enjoyed a long history pre-dating formal verse. Such poetry can be traced back to Abraham Cowley (circa 1665) and even further, despite the 20th century being its true era of prevalence. That’s not to say that free verse before then was marginal or lacking influence. John Milton has several examples of metre-less poetry, and we can see the influence of non-syllabic accentuation in his turns of phrase. So, classical poets learnt from free verse (under whatever name) and applied the liberties won from it to structured verse – in the case of Elliot and Pound, the same is true of the process in reverse.

It’s also important to note that metre did not, could never have spontaneously appeared over night. It has to have developed over time in order to evolve the theory attached to it. We see this principle in ancient Anglo—Saxon poetry such as alliterated verse. While this poetry relies on accents and parallelisms, it does not confine its lines to a set number of syllables or overly regulated use of such metrics, nor does it demand the use of rhyme. We could argue that such poetic composition is in many ways the primordial formal verse; verse without recurrent metre or overly restrictive structure. Alliterated verse lived for a long time and through many centuries adapted to social, theological and economic climates. Add to this the decades of bastardisation from foreign influences until the ‘new poetry’ (what we consider formal verse) became fashion.

International trading and politics led to poets being exposed to foreign literature, poetry and mythology – it’s only natural that poets of their day (as equals to poets today) experimented with such influences and adapted classical meters to English. In this sense we see poetry as an expressive method of communication becoming a literary art form that has grown from free, more wildly sown roots to sophisticated linguistic maturity, still maintaining that expression; exploring language and remapping it to a melodic frame work, and then reverting to its roots for being lost and marred by haughty-taughty types. Poetry was stolen from the people when terminology and reference came to mean 'correct' (hence my prior mention of bullshit; terminology is good for analysis and learning how composition was done, but not an essential, not un-tweakable, not set in stone), the resurgence of poetry as free verse was its rebirth.

The current climate for a poet should be exploring and experimenting, liberating language and/or redefining it to convention, breaking said conventions and simply expressing oneself in whichever means necessary. Ever heard the saying ‘to forget the past is to destroy the future’? Why not apply that to poetry? The conventions and methodologies, the guidelines etc of formal verse have much to offer and can very easily be incorporated into contemporary poetry. I use metrics when composing free verse, consciously irregular and still fluid, still free. For me it’s always been a case of form meeting function. I can adhere to form; break away from coherent methodologies; fuse formal and free verse (think a free verse sonnet, free verse villanelle, what about an imagist's pantoum or twisted verse?). I can do whatever I want, whatever I need to do… but more importantly, I have that choice.

Whether presented with free verse of formal verse, poetry is what is in front of me, and to deny one is to deny the other. I can’t deny either and a finger in both pies is what serves the poet his filling best.
 
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kborsden

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re: Perks (post#19)

So my question is: is this something you worry about when writing poetry? On a scale from one to ten, how attached are you to the idea of the reader having the intended experience? Or is it more about crafting the thing, and the reader's interpretation being viewed as an entirely separate exercise?

I think it depends on what and why you're writing your poetry. If your intention is to absolutely emote something specific, the n that's what you should do, any less and the poem fails, regardless of how well written otherwise. If you simply intend too express an emotion, emotive state or mind-frame, experience etc, then you shouldn't worry. Whereas emotive poetry should immerse the reader and infect them with the poet's intention, leaning out to expression should be a gift to the reader.

I see my poetry as a gift to whoever reads it -- let them enjoy it and make from it what they will, make it their own. As long as my language is consistent, abstractions are anchored, the poem reads fluently and doesn't confuse I believe I can/do achieve this. I've written some pretty extreme surrealist poetry, but it is generally well accepted and pleasantly enough for me, everyone has heir own take on it...

So I worry on your scale at 2-3 on whether they get it as I do, but a 10 on whether they can make it their own.
 

kdnxdr

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"poetry can only inhabit the being of those who invite it into their lives. and that is an ever-shrinking population.

it's been increasingly superceded, and co-opted, by other media that has watered down its meaning and its value, from greeting cards to commercial jingles to popular music.

it is an ever-dimming light and will probably one day be fully extinguished, smothered by less challenging pursuits, but i like to think there's a quiet nobility in keeping the torch burning for as long as possible." WHaskins

I thinks that's the most tender thing I've ever "heard" you "say". It gave me goosebumps!

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