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YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

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I'm discomitted by the links to purchase e-books.

If you follow through one of the "professional critiques" you're offered an opportunity to buy the book as an e-book.

The references to "professional author" are troubling.
 

YouWriteOn

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Keep your chins up

Hi Medievalist

Our authors who provide critiques include Martyn Bedford, he's a great writer.

Our editors also include literary professionals from agents and publishers such as Curtis Brown, Orion and Bloomsbury, who publish writers such as Rowling and Ian Rankin.

We're essentially a critique site.

Editors for Bloomsbury, Orion and Curtis Brown Each month the Top Five Opening Chapters in our peer review charts receive a free critique from editors for leading agents and publishers including Orion, Curtis Brown and Bloomsbury, who collectively represent authors like Rowling, Rankin, etc


The Random House House Group, publisher of writers such as John Grisham, currently read and comment on the YouWriteOn Top Ten each month between April and September 2008


We have just started, after over 2 years, to offer a publishing service with Legend Press, shortlisted for the UK Young Publisher of the Year, and whose story Salt & Honey by Candi Miller featured as one of the Top Ten books to talk about on World Book Day. A very good read I understand. As on Absolute Write, members make up their own informed minds about whether POD is for them






We hope you may pop in some time!
 
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JennaGlatzer

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Hi Ted, I'm glad you did decide to come over and engage in the discussion.

I haven't spent enough time on your site to get into much of a talk about it yet. What I think you'll find here is this:

-We're in favor of critique groups. Nearly all the writers here will agree that it's valuable to give and get critiques. I used to be very active on Zoetrope.com, where I went for screenwriting critiques. It was a superb learning experience, and very humbling. (I had no idea how many talented screenwriters were lurking about.) If that were the only purpose of your site, I don't think a single person here would say anything but, "You go, Ted."

-We don't think POD is a dirty word, but we think it's generally a bad idea for writers who want to sell books to strangers. It's a fine idea for writers who genuinely just want to see a book in print and have something to give to their friends and family, or perhaps for writers who have their own built-in audiences (because they do speaking engagements or the like). What I did see on your site seemed to encourage self-publishing and vanity publishing. Many, MANY writers get into this without having any idea how many obstacles are against them. In general, bookstores WILL NOT STOCK self-published/vanity-published books because (a) there's no market for them, (b) they're overpriced, (c) there's no returns policy, (d) there's no quality control, (e) the covers are not professional, (f) there's no publisher backing them with a publicity campaign, etc.

People who see headings like "YouWriteOn Bestseller to Bookshop" and lines like "your book will be available to order through Amazon, Barnes and Noble, W.H.Smith, Waterstones and over 25,000 other booksellers in the U.S. and UK" can easily get stars in their eyes and not realize what that ACTUALLY means is that someone can walk up to a desk and place a special order for the book and come back 2 weeks later and pick it up, but that the book will *not* be on bookstore shelves, no matter how well-written it is. The only people who do place special orders of POD books are generally the writer's Aunt Gertrude and best friend from high school.

Which is all fine-- IF that's what the writer understands and expects. It just feels to me like the last thing the writing world needs is another vanity POD press.

And it seems to run counter to the whole idea of critiquing and getting reviewed by agents; presumably, it's the goal of most writers on your site to get better and whip their work into publishable shape so they can get picked up by a real publisher. Encouraging them to self-publish is like telling them to settle before they've reached their goals.

I know that there are rumors floated about that it's harder than ever for newbies to break into publishing. I suspect that rumor has been around since the printing press was invented. But it was only five years ago that I broke in. We see success stories here frequently. I don't feel like it helps new writers to make it sound like the walls are any higher than they actually are, because that only encourages them to give in and self-publish-- a move that many of them regret once they realize they've just consigned their hard work to a sad fate. Writers want readers. You're helping them with the first step toward that goal-- getting feedback so they can improve their work-- but I hope you'll consider that it seems a waste of effort to have them work to be publishable, only to sell the same 75 copies they would have sold if they'd sent their first draft to Xlibris, iUniverse, Lulu, etc.
 

HJW

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JennaGlatzer said:
.

Which is all fine-- IF that's what the writer understands and expects. It just feels to me like the last thing the writing world needs is another vanity POD press.

I've been using YWO for about eight months now and the POD/self publishing side of things hasn't been 'pushed' in any way. So far, the site has been all about exchanging feedback and getting in contact with like minded people. I don't think anyone using YWO has any illusions about getting 'discovered' via the site.

Personally, I have found the site invaluable. Although I am now worried that Ted is channelling Dave Allen. Hope you've still got all your digits Ted, otherwise you might have trouble getting your wallet out to pay us all like you promised...oops, I wasn't supposed to mention that, was I?
:e2zipped:
 

JennaGlatzer

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Hi HJW,

That's because their POD division hasn't been launched yet, but it's linked on the main page and says it's in development: http://www.youwriteon.com/info/publishing/publish-your-book.aspx .

Like I said, using it as a critique site sounds great to me. But dooming the very best-rated book of the year out of thousands to a POD publication sounds like a punishment instead of an honor.

As far as negativity goes, I guess that's in how you see it-- I see it as the opposite, because I see that Ted is negative about the publishing industry (he's looking for stories to prove that publishers aren't reading, or that it's harder for new writers to break in), whereas many of the people here are advocating the opposite: don't get cynical about the real publishing world. It's still hungry for new talent. Major publishers buy the work of new writers EVERY DAY!

With talent, practice, and persistence, you have a good shot of being published legitimately. So I feel like those who encourage self-publishing and tell stories about the cold, cruel publishing world are the ones who are being needlessly negative. (Or just don't have a good handle on how publishing actually works.)
 

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Hi Jenna

Well, we'll just have to wait and see what develops with YWO. I still think it is a good site and I don't doubt their intentions are genuine.

I do agree with you, though, re mainstream publishing. I think if you have the talent and the persistence and just keep at it, someone somewhere will eventually take a chance on you.

You have an interesting site here - must be a lot of work running it!

HJW
 

Popeyesays

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I meant this to go HERE, not in announcements

My bad, if anyone wants to delete this post in Announcements, feel free. I meant for it to go here


I just spent the last hour visiting YouWriteOn.com and enjoyed myself. I reviewed two sets of sample chapters. One was really readable. I would part with good money to buy it, and my wife would love it, an historical romance about Edinburgh and London Medical schools in 1829 and the injustice of acquiring the corpses of the poor to be dissected without permission of individuals or families.

The other was a near contemporary humor piece about manipulating people's consumer habits through advertisements in one's dreams. The premise was nice, but I read four chapters of the book and it still hadn't reached the narrative point where the synopsis begins. Very heavy on "TELL" and way insufficient "SHOW."

Anyway, as a critique service, I think it's pretty good. I don't think I'd want them to publish my book as a POD willy-nilly because I submitted something rated high, but other than that I liked the site.

Regards,
Scott
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Bartholomew

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I might actually use this. School isn't leaving me a lot of time to go over things, and my beta readers keep dropping off the face of the planet.
 

RJLeahy

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Youwriteon

A few months ago I saw some discussion concerning this site and thought I'd add my opinions and observations, now that I've gone through the process.

First, for those who haven't heard of it yet, youwriteon.com is in essense a peer-review site for budding writers. The basic premise is that you upload the first few chapters of your work (up to 8,000 words, I believe), and in exchange for critiquing the work of others, you get your work critiqued, in a one-to-one ratio.

The critiquing form is a bit more elaborate than most of these things, including a short test at the end of each piece to ensure that you did, in fact, read said piece. You rate the work in several catagories on a 1 to 5 scale. The higher your average, the higher you move up the field, with the goal to be rated in the top 10 for one month. At that time you are moved into the "top sellers" list and given a professional critique (top seller is just a name, you don't really sell anything).

So, after reading a bit about it, I decided to see what all the fuss was about. I uploaded the first five chapters of a new novel (One Big Love, which some of you have helped critique here on absolutewrite--thanks to all), and recieved 28 critiques (which yes, means I had to do 28) and managed to get into the whole top ten thing after which the work was given a very detailed critique again by Melissa Weatherill, a woman with significant experience as both an agent and editor (it was very positive).

I went into this with no greater expectation than a chance to get a new work looked at and commented on, and hopefully get it critiqued by someone "in the business", and to that end I was very pleased. I know they also have some sort of "book of the year" award coming up, with a promise of publication, but truthfully, that isn't what brought me to the site and this novel won't be complete until after the first of the year anyway.

Anyway, that was my experience. Hope it answered some questions for those of you interested.
 

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I wondered how they made money and went to the webpage to find out 'the catch'... but it looks like it's sponsored by the Arts Council of England. It's hard to not be cynical, and it's good to be reminded that there are legit services for writers.

Thanks for sharing - I'm glad you had a good experience. You'd better get to work on those 28 critiques! (D'oh!)
 

PeeDee

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I've seen that site, and it's not a terrible idea. Of course, the opinions you get back aren't necessarily useful, but they're opinions and they're people reading, that's something.

There's the Critters group too. They're helpful and terribly intellligent.
 

aruna

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CrankItTo11 said:
I wondered how they made money and went to the webpage to find out 'the catch'... but it looks like it's sponsored by the Arts Council of England. It's hard to not be cynical, and it's good to be reminded that there are legit services for writers.

Thanks for sharing - I'm glad you had a good experience. You'd better get to work on those 28 critiques! (D'oh!)

Between the Arts Council and the Royal Literary Fund, wirters in England live in paradise! I believe the Arts Council also subsidises critiques from one of the leading professional critique agencies.
 

Bob

Youwriteon Book Of The Year Announced

Hi all,

It's been a while since I posted here, been busy writing, rewriting, rewriting and, oh... rewriting :)
However, thought I'd pass on the good news that Youwriteon has chosen its first Book Of The Year and the lucky author, or should I say, talented author, is Guy Saville for his story The Africa Reich, a WW2 thriller. The surprise for many writers was that YWO decided to award a BOTY to the best children's story too, which was entered by HJ Windsor, who you might have seen here on your forums under her initials HJW. Now the BOTY is being published (free of charge) and marketed by YWO and I think they'll be doing the same with HJW's children's book too. More info here on the BBC's pages:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6336701.stm

I was in hot contention for a while with my tale entitled Flames Of Herakleitos, (excuse pun) but it has been taken up by a Small Press Publisher and therefore had to be withdrawn from BOTY, but it was number one in the SF genre for most of 2006. Speaking of my book, it's having its official launch on 23rd March 2007 at 7pm in The Dylan Thomas Centre in Swansea, Wales, UK should any of you be in the area you will be more than welcome to attend. Entrance is free, wine is free, music is free, author's signature on the book is free! But you have to part with cash to get a copy of the book! :) Hey. I'm an impoverished author! :)

http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=15438

So, for a site that many of you seemed very skeptical about it has proven true to its word:-

The aim of YouWriteOn.com is to help new writers develop and to help talented writers get noticed and published.

And after more than a year of being a member I can still say that not once have I been asked to part with a penny, which can't be said about other sites of a similar nature...

Happy writing and regards from a Snowy Wales,
Bob
 

veinglory

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As a reality check, many things are funded by the Art's Council--some of them appalling bad ideas. It's isn't a royal seal of approval by people who know all about prose publishing. I have heard it mentioned, not enitrely in jest, that what you need to get Art's Council funding, is a pulse.

YWO is basically a critiquegroup with gimmicks that are far less than they appear to be. It may be a very fine critique group but it is one of many.
 
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FergieC

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I made it as far as the long-list of ten - as did a couple of other folk I've seen around AW :)

YWO is basically a critiquegroup with gimmicks that are far less than they appear to be. It may be a very fine critique group but it is one of many.

I think the main difference is the professional critiques. I managed to get two (from Michael Legat, who probably doesn't hang around too many critique groups).

In any case, when I very nervously put the one that made the long-list up around a year ago, it was with no real expectations. I figured at best I'd get some help polishing the chapters before sending it to an agent; at worst, I'd be told how terrible it was and saved the embarassment of sending it to agents. So it's been a great confidence boost, which you don't normally get from crit groups.

As to what happens with BOTY, that remains to be seen. For me, I don't think sales would necessarily by the key thing, but whether it gets the writers concerned noticed. The books that won look excellent, so it'll be a shame if it doesn't.

Congratulations again btw Bob!
 

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Hi Veinglory I heard about YouWriteOn through the BBC news item last week. I've had a nose and they've got really impressive leading publishers working with them that provide free critiques for their writer members including editors for Bloomsbury who publish JK Rowling and lit agency Curtis Brown. As most of the top UK agencies are on board you may want to revise your understanding of the word gimmick.

You may not know about the BBC but they are huge here in the UK where I come from. the story was on their main entertainment news page I don't know if there books will sell but I'm 18 years old and wish I had that publicity. It's got to be good for a writers confidence and career.

I read through this topic and was really surprised. As a new writer I thought writing sites would encourage new ones particularly when they seem to share many of the same writers. I'm just joining sites now I'm old enough and I thought writers would congratulate each other and admit when they got it wrong like some of the people here. I'm sure YouWriteOn would congratulate Absolute Write if you'd achieved what they have in a short time as they seem to have writers from everywhere.
 

RJLeahy

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I'll also put in a good word for YWO. Although I didn't win top honors, like Fergie I did manage to get to the long list top ten. The professional reviews of the book were well worth it.
 

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If the winning books are really publishable, YWO is not doing the authors any favors by consigning them to POD limbo.

I am guessing that "Highly rated chapters on YouWriteOn are considered by top literary agencies each month" means that the chapters are sent to these agencies each month, and someone there may or may not look at them. There is a caveat here: not all the highly-rated chapters are submitted--only those that "our literary professionals consider in their professional opinion are ready to be submitted." This could mean all, or it could mean none. This actually is a smart move by YWO, since it circumvents the shortcomings of peer review systems by imposing some quality control (if YWO were to consistently send inapproporiate or sub-par submissions, the cooperating agencies would probably cease to cooperate). However, writers shouldn't assume that just because their chapters are highly rated, they will automatically be referred to a literary agency.

Christopher Little and Curtis Brown are indeed prestigious agencies, but YWO also works with "new literary agent Angelus Associates," an agency that appears to represent a sculptor, but mentions no writing clients. There don't seem to be any sales, and Angelus's website provides no information on who's behind the agency, so it's impossible to check to see whether they're qualified. If not, once again, YWO is not doing its membership any favors.

The critiques, which appear to involve real professional editors and authors, are certainly a nice benefit for a few YWO members. And I'm sure that plenty of people benefit from the peer critiques and from being part of a critique community. If YWO would limit itself to this, I don't think anyone here would have any criticism. But it aspires to do more, and that's where the problems lie. At the very least, YWO is encouraging unrealistic expectations among its members. In the case of the contest winners, what it's doing may actually be damaging.

- Victoria
 

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I went into this with no greater expectation than a chance to get a new work looked at and commented on, and hopefully get it critiqued by someone "in the business", and to that end I was very pleased. I know they also have some sort of "book of the year" award coming up, with a promise of publication, but truthfully, that isn't what brought me to the site and this novel won't be complete until after the first of the year anyway.

Hello Richard,

Still a big fan of "One Big Love". I wish you much good fortune with that one.

To all,

I have also been participating on YWO and my opening chapters for "Pink Belly" made it to what they called the Short List of five. Did not get picked for publication, but the benefits have been tremendous. Not only is it the most positive, and most positively congenial critique site I have tried, the professional feedback I have gotten for my chapters has been invaluable, far beyond what I could have possibly expected.

I appreciate the work Absolute Writers does, but it really is time to stop taking pot shots at YWO. Anything that forms a community, fosters better writing, and actually puts deserving Not-Quite-There folks in touch with Been-There-Doing-That pros who are more than willing to help someone else grow and learn is a good thing.

And if any of you hail from the UK, do yourself a favor and check out "Freak of Nature" by Phil Whitaker, one of the YWO judges. I'm hoping it makes its way across the pond, but if not I'm checking out the exchange rate on Amazon before too long.

Alan
 

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Like Victoria, I'm very concerned by the fact that the winning books each year are published by YWO. From the YWO FAQ page:

"The completed book of the highest rated opening chapters of the year will be awarded our Book of The Year Publishing Award – the winner’s book will be published by YouWriteOn and available to order by customers as a paperback through booksellers such as Amazon, W.H. Smith, Barnes and Noble and Waterstones."

Note that--"available to order", not "available on the shelves". There's a vast difference between the two. And then later,

"To enter for the Book of The Year Publishing Award, simply join the site for free and upload your opening chapters. View The Simple Guide to Getting Started to learn how to get your opening chapters reviewed and rated."

So all books with chapters uploaded onto the YWO website are at risk of being published via POD. Wouldn't it be better to send them to commercial publishers, if they're good enough? The book would be read more widely, and the authors would see a far better return, editorially, criticially and financially.

I like the idea of getting good feedback via an online writers' group but this outbalances all the benefits, as far as I can see.
 

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Hi Victoria I think you've got it wrong. I was reading the FAQ page and it looks like YouWriteOn are successfully using their leading publisher contacts like editors at Bloomsbury who provide free critiques for them - and also publicity like the BBC story about the winners as a launchpad to get their writers mainstream agents and publishers and they're succeeding!

"Book of the Year Update: The first YouWriteOn winners have had some excellent publicity, including on the BBC News site. All YouWriteOn members are free to be represented and published by whom they wish. Recently two of our top 5 members were referred for their free critique to an editor for leading agent Curtis Brown and also a senior editor at one of our affiliated leading publishers - who include Bloomsbury. They were very impressed by both writers and wish to see their completed books. One of the writers is one of the award winners this year, and one is a finalist. All writers are free to be represented by who they wish. Our critique system, book awards, publisher and agent affiliations, and the excellent publicity obtained for new writers is intended to be a springboard for writers to use to their best advantage, such as with the new writers mentioned above. The choice always remains with the writer "


Plus it says their writers get reviews of people who enjoy or want to buy the book below. Doesn't it make sense to give writers the choice to publish if they want like they say below? It's a bit presumptuous to baby writers like you suggest and not credit them with the intelligence to make their own choices. I don't know if I'd publish my book when its finished but I'd at least like the choice. I didn't know much about it being possible to publish your own book but the funny thing I found is that their are ads for publishing your own book on this site and members who seem to get a kick out of it and make some sales mentioned on this forum. It seems hypocritical to promote publishing here and then diss it and infer your members who publish don't know what they're doing. I don't know if its a good thing one way or other but if these people get a kick out of it why not?

Why can't anyone congratulate the writers here who won or who have published as this is undermining them and saying they don't know what they're doing. This is quite upsetting for a young writer as I thought writers would stick together.

"Many of the site's top rated writers receive reviews from readers who specify they'd like to read on and buy their completed book. We plan in the future to give writers the choice to publish they books: they can judge from their feedback and fans of their genre whether publishing their book is a valuable option for them or not. As so many of the site's top rated writers have been really enjoyed by their readers we think this is a valuable option. "
 
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KellyG, it seems that Victoria isn't around at present, so I hope you won't mind me jumping in.

I'm certainly not out to be rude or discouraging to new writers. I wish them all the luck and success in the world. However, I am equally keen to make sure that they don't end up stuck with a publishing deal that doesn't do them any favours or worse, takes advantage of them and prevents them from succeeding as best they could.

It seems that one of the conditions of uploading your work onto YWO is that it is then automatically entered into a competition, and the first prizewinner of that competition is then automatically published by YWO's POD publishing arm. This is highly unlikely to the best deal for that writer. The book won't get anything like the exposure or the sales that it would get with a commercial publisher; consequently, the writer won't get anything like the royalties they'd get with the same commercial publisher. Which is what worries me.

I'm going to carry on doing all I can to warn newcomers to the writing market of the scams that are out there. Even if that's at the risk of seeming to discourage them. I don't intend to upset anyone: it's just that, having seen at first-hand how heartbreaking it can be when writers are scammed, I think it's better to warn them off. It's trading in a little upset now for a lot of upset later.
 

Momento Mori

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YWO's FAQs are poorly worded (never a great sign) but having been through them all I don't think that it's correct to suggest that winning the competition obliges you to publish via their POD publishing arm. Their terms repeatedly say that users are free to publish with whoever they like and whilst I would like to see this explicitly clarified to include the competition winner, I think there's enough in there for any winning writer to say "thanks but no thanks" and walk away.

Personally, I've heard enough dark mutterings from people who have used YWO to not be interested in using the service. To my mind, it's far more useful to find a good 'physical' critique group that you can go along to and exchange ideas with (peer reviews of the kind YWO uses makes me suspicious of sock-puppets and other abuses). However, given some of the people YWO have hooked up with, I can see the attraction of the site and if you are one of the people lucky enough to get critiqued by a 'proper' professional (and not an outfit like Angelus which doesn't have a confidence-inducing website) then more power to you.

Regardless of my concerns, winning any competition like that is an achievement so best wishes to those who've done well out of it.

MM