American Millennials are among the world's least skilled

At least around here, the local schools purchase various curriculum packages from private companies, which can become Very Expensive.

I was talking to another parent yesterday - our kids are in class together and their second grade 'science' curriculum includes worksheets in which they fill in the blanks about what happens when ice gets warm. She teaches in the next town over, where they purchased a $12,000 package (for 100 kids, I think she said) which comes with a hands-on kit. The lesson on friction, for example, has cars and ramps, suggestions on putting rubber bands on the wheels, etc. Do I think that's worth $120/kid? Oh hell no. Do I think her class is going to get a better intro to science than our kids' class? Yep. And somebody's making out like a bandit on the difference.

Don said:

Perhaps it would have been more clear if I had said "Just what are the schools teaching these days?" Read the rest of the OP and you'll note I'm not blaming millennials. On the contrary, I think those of my generation in positions of power have failed their constituency miserably. I think Ari covered it perfectly.

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It's not very hard to figure out what they're teaching. Just go to your state's Department of Education website (or whatever your state calls that agency), and look up the state standards. That will tell you what they're teaching. They're going to look different from state to state (although all the states that adopted Common Core should have pretty similar Math and English Language Arts standards - you have to remember, though, that those have just been implemented, and the millenials have primarily been taught the old standards).

LittlePinto said:

Easy stuff, right? Just like balancing a checkbook.

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If someone has literally never had to write a paper cheque in their entire life, of course they won't know how to balance a chequebook.

I'm off to figure out what balancing a chequebook is.

edit: Oh, it's just checking your income and spending against your bank balance. I do that with a spreadsheet.

Xelebes said:

LP, i am taking accounting courses and if you said "balancing a chequebook", I would have to admit being clueless. But to say to me do a cash flow statement or a bank reconciliation, I would know what to do right there. The analogy of the chequebook may become a relic of the past.

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True. But still, the math that applies to the task should be something that everyone (certainly every college student) can do, barring a learning disability.

As I just said in a rep to someone, tons of people can't calculate a simple tip in their heads anymore, either. That's just insane to me.

I once patiently explained it to a young'n in my running club after a group brunch. She's a freaking graduate student, and no dummy, but she couldn't look at a $15 check and calculate what a 20% tip would be without pulling out her phone calculator. She was way too impressed that we oldsters could look at the check and instantly say what the tip should be.

I showed her the easy trick of chopping the last digit off to get ten percent, and then doubling the number to get 20% Abracadabra! $1.50 + $1.50 = $3! or if you only want to leave 15%, you cut the second number in half -- $1.50 + .75 = $2.25. Her mind was officially blown!

But I learned that trick when I was a wee little kid. I couldn't believe no one had ever shown it to her, but they hadn't.

Xelebes said:

LP, i am taking accounting courses and if you said "balancing a chequebook", I would have to admit being clueless. But to say to me do a cash flow statement or a bank reconciliation, I would know what to do right there. The analogy of the chequebook may become a relic of the past.

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I'm pretty sure you would have been able to work out the problem just on the basis of the numbers you were given and the question you were asked. The prof only used the checkbook example when it was clear some of the students didn't know how to convert a word problem into basic arithmetic. But, yeah, definitely a generational communication barrier.

For reasons like the above, I say that particular university turned out people who were technically skilled but couldn't think. If you gave them a problem identical to one they had been taught to solve then they could solve it. If you gave them a novel problem which used the same skills then they were lost because they had never learned to think flexibly. It was the same "memorize and regurgitate" that we see in the K12 programs.

I was looking at the article you referenced that drew a parallel between NCLB and defense/economic concerns and it really is an interesting idea. Quite frankly, I'm not surprised that the US might not consider education as valuable in its own right but only in terms of what it produces in economic (or military) value. It's like how people mock the liberal arts majors for not learning something marketable like computer science. If it can't be quantified or economized, the thinking goes, it must be pointless.

This thread is downright depressing, but so true.

I'm a teacher and it's very scary in the education field right now.

There is some awful mix of socioeconomic issues and devaluing of education going on, along with some questionable educational paradigms, to name a few. Many of my students hate reading and struggle to read and write a complete sentence. I try my best to teach critical thinking skills, but they push back because why can't you just give us the answer?

Some parents really support and value education. Others don't understand why I can't just give an A because their child came to school that day.

I also get the whole history is not important because we aren't tested in it.

I don't blame all the students. I have many who have this passion to learn. There are so many factors to consider that solving the problem is going to need a massive supports.

CassandraW said:

But I learned that trick when I was a wee little kid. I couldn't believe no one had ever shown it to her, but they hadn't.

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Okay, so I'm pretty sure I am Gen X or whatever comes right after that, and I didn't know this. Then again, I always have had problems with math in my head.

And they smell funny too!

LittlePinto said:

If you gave them a problem identical to one they had been taught to solve then they could solve it. If you gave them a novel problem which used the same skills then they were lost because they had never learned to think flexibly. It was the same "memorize and regurgitate" that we see in the K12 programs.

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I'll bet that's at the bottom of the problem. The grad student in my running club initially assumed we oldsters had all memorized a tip table. She was blown away that there was a simple trick she could easily apply to every check of any size.

To me, that's the real problem with pushing for rote memorization. It's fine for some things (nice to have the multiplication table down, for example), but past a point, what you want is not a slew of memorized facts, but the ability to apply a way of thinking.

E.g., in law school, I didn't memorize laws (except for the bar exam, which is a miserable and IMO useless exercise in rote memorization -- I scored highly, and promptly forgot everything from the bar exam course.) What I learned in law school was how to think like a lawyer. I wouldn't dream of spinning off a legal opinion off the top of my head on a subject I don't know intimately, but I can generally come up with a pretty intuitive guess at what the answer is likely to look like.

Kweei said:

Okay, so I'm pretty sure I am Gen X or whatever comes right after that, and I didn't know this. Then again, I always have had problems with math in my head.

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I taught you something new! Hurray!

I hope you will now think of me every time you're in a restaurant.

LittlePinto said:

If you gave them a problem identical to one they had been taught to solve then they could solve it. If you gave them a novel problem which used the same skills then they were lost because they had never learned to think flexibly. It was the same "memorize and regurgitate" that we see in the K12 programs.

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That's one of the problems Common Core and Next Generation Science Standards are trying to address. Whether they will be successful is hard to say.

Flicka said:

We are having a major debate about how crap our education system is, but at least we did considerably better than the US (and most European countries). So it could be worse I guess. But it's all going to hell in handbasket here too...



Considering the US explicitly excluded "hard to reach groups" like "(s)some Hispanic and black males" I would assume it excluded illegal immigrants too though, even if it is not explicitly stated. But yes, neither Finland nor Japan has a significant degree of immigrants (compared to most other countries on that list) which ought to give them higher scores (and yes, I hate being bested by Finland ).

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Thank you for looking over the data!

Now questions It's explicitly stated when illegal immigrants are excluded for other countries, so why would you think the US would be different?

If you mean that some of the Hispanics we couldn't reach in the US might be illegal, then sure, but that's different than excluding the pool of illegal immigrants (or, like in Japan's case, non-nationals, too!).

Keep in mind that the response rates were really high in the US (and others), so they didn't miss ("couldn't reach") as many people as those with the poor percentage on that factor.

I'm not saying there aren't any trends there; it's just that I don't know how much any of it means for real comparison given the problems of the study.

I can't believe the US didn't at least offer the tests in Spanish, too, for instance. But I think we still do that for standardized testing here, where we don't even check to see who has proficiency in English when deciding that they rank as too illiterate for their grade level on a national basis, etc. I always do a head-desk when we throw it all together like that instead of designing studies better. The fact that this one is international doesn't make me feel any different, except that it truly must be harder to get that many countries on the same page with the design, data collection, etc.

clintl said:

That's one of the problems Common Core and Next Generation Science Standards are trying to address. Whether they will be successful is hard to say.

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I guess we'll find out in about twenty years.

I think we'll have to change our mindset regarding learning as well. One of the best ways to learn how to think flexibly is to challenge yourself and fail. Sometimes a lot. It's pretty hard to let students fail and try again if parents go after you because they think little Johnny deserves an "A" and the administrators are terrified of what will happen to the school's funding or reputation during the learning process.

I didn't know all the math I did on a regular basis was such a specialized skill. Then again, because I'm mostly using it to make costumes and cook, no one is impressed... Sigh.

I'm a Millennial, and while I know plenty of my cohort who fit the stereotype, I know as many or more who don't. I have younger friends who support themselves entirely from jobs while they're in school, do their own taxes, balance their checkbooks, deal with shitty working conditions, do well in school, and own houses and cars.

Certainly, most of my friends know how to calculate tips, and work registers, and anything else you can name.

Since when did knowing how to work a cash register become a necessary life skill?

CassandraW said:

All I know is, fewer and fewer young cashiers at grocery and drug stores and at restaurants can do simple math. If they have to do something that isn't simply running a bar code over a scanner, they're lost.

I've seen this phenomenon a few times, and it never fails to floor me. To give the most recent example, a couple of weeks ago I used a raincheck for organic chickens. It allowed me to buy up to 7 pounds of chicken at $1.99 a pound. I picked up two chickens, each approximately 3.5 pounds. The very young cashier was utterly flummoxed because she could not simply run the chickens over a scanner.

I'd already done the math in my head. It was 6.98 pounds of chicken. $1.99 a pound. So, $13.89. I understand not everyone is adept at mental math, but anyone should instantly see that we're talking approximately $14, right? About 7 pounds at about $2 a pound? And any adult could do the exact calculation with a pencil and paper, much less a calculator, right?

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I didn't quite learn "the value of mental approximation" in high school (where I think it really should be, or maybe even earlier), nor formally in engineering college, but it's just a small extrapolation from knowing orders of magnitude and scientific notation.I'm not sure how or where I learned it, but I've found it to be valuable.

For well over 10 years Subway has had it's "Fresh Value Meal" (now higher priced and officially the "Daily Special" which was what everyone called it before anyway) priced at $3.99, and I've been there a lot. If I ever want to hire someone, I've seen lots of people-skills I want and don't want, as well as general work (sandwich-making), arithmetic and register-operating skills. There seems to be a positive correlation in all three - someone good at one is usually good at the others as well.

One new guy... the cost with tax was $4.27. Not having four ones, I have him a five and 27 cents. He GOT OUT A CALCULATOR, pushed buttons for at least 30 seconds, then finally punched up the register (an electronic touch-display which surely also calculates exact change from amount tendered), and finally gave me the dollar in change. I saw him again within a week, but never after that.

Then there was this other new guy (why is it guys, when it's women who "aren't supposed to be good at that math stuff" - oh, but this one isn't even about the math), he made me the sandwich, I think maybe he was full of self-confidence, but anyway, the same scenario, I gave him $5.27 and he immediately gave my change back saying "It's FOUR twenty seven" and gave me change for the five. I was tempted to say something, but I didn't. Interestingly, another employee who'd been there for months (and probably in a supervisor role) saw the whole thing, and probably said something after I left. As surly as the new employee was to me, I could imagine him saying something back to the supervisor even after being told "Hey, its faster to just give back a dollar bill for the change." I never saw him again either.

Wrong. The cashier didn't want to take my mental math (understandable, I guess). None of the cashiers near her knew what to do, either, so she rang for a manager. The manager (also very young), pulled out her phone, used the calculator function, and came up with $6 something for both chickens (not each -- for both).

I protested that this was obviously wrong, and showed them my calculations on a paper bag. Finally, they told me just to take the chickens at $6 and (essentially) shut up and go on with my day. Since the people behind me were getting annoyed, I complied.

I was a cashier when I was a young'n, and damn it, pretty much everyone I worked with could do simple math calculations. WTF happened? Are they not teaching simple math in school anymore?

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I learned to do it and I've never been a cashier.

Hapax Legomenon said:

Not knowing what to do when confronted with an item that can't be scanned sounds like a failure of training rather than a failure of math skills, but that's just me...

Then again as a math tutor it seemed to me that a significant number of your people are scared of numbers. I wonder who's scaring them?

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Maybe it's the parents who would be lost without calculators? In the early 1970s four-function electronic handheld calculators were a new thing that cost over $100, but went down to "easily affordable" in just a few years. I suspect arithmetic skills have been looked upon as a crude "backup system" since then.

Cyia said:

• That "your best" is all that's required, even if it means you fail.
• That despite experience levels, everyone should be treated equally and paid equally.
• That showing up is equal to working hard and deserves recognition, praise, and a raise on a regular basis.
• That ideas are more important than implementation.
• That when all else fails, let someone else do it because that's who's been doing it all along.
• That opinions are inflammatory and create strife, therefore go along with whatever keeps the peace. You can still maintain your beliefs without acting on them.

And that's not a dig against millenials, so much as it is the overly cautious ways kids are being taught in many (not all) public schools.

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Exactly. Heaven forbid if anyone's feelings get hurt.

I know 1980s are considered a Millennial, but I'm curious the age demographic they used for this, if they really used the whole range and how each year did. 1980 to 2000 is a huge span of time and, frankly, I think they're worlds apart in their education, their mentality, their social habits. Personally I would say Millennials were 1990 and after.

And no, these results came as no surprise whatsoever to me.

amergina said:

I don't think it is, but I would posit that knowing how to count back change is a very useful skill.

I've done volunteer work that involved selling things, and if all you have is a cashbox...it's a great way to make change for folks.

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Well, I would consider "working a register" and "knowing basic math" to be different things, considering the register is a strong, locked metal box that is actively trying to keep the undeserving's sticky fingers out of it, while math is like, an abstract system for quantifying the physical world. If you've never been at a job that requires you to work a cash register, well, they usually don't like you to touch them. I've never had a job like that. So that's why I was wondering if something had changed when I wasn't looking...

And honestly, I have never seen any of the changemaking issues that people have described here happen in real life. Maybe I just live around really really smart people?

But yeah, the people teaching kids to be afraid of math are doing them a huge disservice. It would make sense if it was because they themselves were afraid of it.

benbradley said:

One new guy... the cost with tax was $4.27. Not having four ones, I have him a five and 27 cents. He GOT OUT A CALCULATOR, pushed buttons for at least 30 seconds, then finally punched up the register (an electronic touch-display which surely also calculates exact change from amount tendered), and finally gave me the dollar in change. I saw him again within a week, but never after that.

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Similar thing happened to me. Cashiers were down and I paid with a large bill. They used pencil and paper. I used my head. They still gave me too much, and took longer than I did to figure it out.

Counting back change is a waste of time when you have a calculating machine that tells you how much to give back, with a display that both you and the customer can see simultaneously. In a modern retail environment, it's an obsolete skill that decreases the business's efficiency if it's used.

I'm starting to think that these issues with changemaking are actually very rare occurrences, and they stick out in your head because they were unique during the many, many, many transactions you've had in your life.

Hapax Legomenon said:

Since when did knowing how to work a cash register become a necessary life skill?

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It's not. I was responding to an earlier post about Millennials and not being able to do a retail job properly.


I actually did have within the past week two Millennial looking folks return too much change. Of course, the customers were Millennials, too, and returned the obvious extra, so it was mostly a wash, I think.

I would say "counting back change" is one of those life skills some of us just flat-out never master. Because of reasons. I've had four separate people try four separate times to show me how to do it, and I cannot. Can. Not. I would be absolutely lost without a calculator. And it's sticky sometimes at the job, but not always, and having customers try to "help" by yelling numbers at me makes it go 1000% slower. So yeah, don't do that.

For demographic purposes, I was born in 1983. We had SATs, but no SOLs, and they weren't a big deal until I got to high school, where suddenly everyone was wringing their hands and taking extra "How to SAT" classes that truly still mystify me. Like, why is there a class specifically for that test? Isn't it supposed to test you on general knowledge for all your subjects? Why is "How to SAT" a class?

Seems like sometime after I left, "How to SOL" became "All Education," at least in some places. I still don't get it.

But then again, I suck at counting change, so what do I know?

ETA: Come to think of it, I'm not sure what those standardized tests were called pre-high school. All bubble tests are the same to me. I remember, "Bring a No. 2 pencil and fill out the bubble completely, don't just draw an X, and make sure you get a good night's sleep!" And then we got to go home early. I wished Bubble Test Day was every day!

Hapax Legomenon said:

I'm starting to think that these issues with changemaking are actually very rare occurrences, and they stick out in your head because they were unique during the many, many, many transactions you've had in your life.

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They're unusual, yes -- because most of the time they scan a bar code or press a button, and the machine tells them what to charge. And lots of people nowadays pay for everything with credit cards, so it's less and less common to need to count back change.

But on the very rare occasions when something goes wrong with the machine, or they need to do something manually, more often than not they're flummoxed.

And counting back change? Pfft. Forget it. Things are generally OK as long as the machine tells them to give you $5.45 back. They can count that. But if you do something "tricky"... E.g., if the tab comes to $10.26. You decide you'd like three quarters back instead of two quarters, two dimes, and 4 pennies. So you give them $11.01. More and more, that seems to confuse the hell out of cashiers.

Your mileage may vary, but here I'm finding it's more and more the case that people are lost if they have to do something manually.

Damn it, it's basic math.

ETA:

It scares me that some people don't think that's important. How do you figure out your own budget? How do you know if you're being overcharged when you go to the register? I catch mistakes All. The. Time. Sometimes big ones. Because I can do math in my head. Because I reconcile my bank statements and credit card statements. Because I look at my damn bill at restaurants. Maybe these are "obsolete skills", but they sure as hell shouldn't be. And they are not difficult to master.