The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous

My apologies for having contributed harshness in this discussion to any extent. It wasn't my intent, but I'm not always a great judge of how I come off.

I'm glad we had the chance to talk, Fruitbat, and I wish you well. Thanks for sharing your time and passion about the issue. You are a strong advocate for what matters to you.

(not quoting, so if The Worst Happens this won't go away due to collateral damage)

I estimate that I've attended over 1,000 AA meetings and as many as 1,000 other 12-step meetings over 10 years (7 to 9 AA meetings per week for two years, then perhaps 5-7 12-step meetings per week, half AA and half other groups: Al-Anon, CoDA, OA, maybe one or two others I forget right now). I was a "true believer" for the first two years, then I started seeing the cracks in the "perfect program for imperfect people."

This links to some of my previous AW posts about AA and my experiences in it:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2742983&postcount=5

Wow. I'm really sorry to see what had been an interesting discussion blow up.


Addiction, for anyone who has had their lives touched by it, is horrendous. It takes good, loving, smart, caring people and destroys them. People should be on the same side, the side of healing, not picking apart one program (among many) that has worked for so many people.


AA does not have to prove anything. If people like it, they should go. If they don't, they shouldn't. There are options. CBT in various forms has been around a long time. I would bet most treatment centers and institutions use some version of CBT. Therapists and docs should certainly be aware of options. AA is not the only one. It is one.


But being informed is critical, as in, AA is not only about "Abrahamic religions"; for example, many Native Americans who do not follow anything close to an "Abrahamic religion" are very comfortable with AA. That is not to say anyone else should be, but AA is certainly not all about Abrahamic type religions.

Again, one hopes we are all on the same side; supporting people heal from addiction on whatever path works for them.

Fruitbat said:

This will probably get deleted too, but again, I have a real problem with people who have clearly never attended an AA meeting and have no earthly idea what it is, continuing to disparage it on a publicly seen forum.

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And I have a real problem with AA dogma having such a stranglehold on how people think about addiction recovery.

I think AA is great for those for whom it works. I just wish it didn't have such a strong influence over those for whom it doesn't.

Thing is, it's one thing to say something didn't work for you, and it's another thing to say that it doesn't work at all, or imply that the people for whom it's worked are somehow pathetic or have bought into pseudoscientific bunk.

Personally, I'm on board with talking about why AA shouldn't be mandated or promoted by the legal system (as I believe Fruitbat has also said). I'm even on board with bringing up evidence as to how AA has been harmful to some people, because apparently it has. If one is going to believe the experiences of the helped, it's only fair to believe the experiences of the harmed.

But outside of those things--that it shouldn't be mandated and that it doesn't work for many people--some of the dialogue seems to come off like bashing someone's religion. If someone says that an experience with God changed their life, are we going to call that pseudoscientific bunk? I mean, we can, but I personally wouldn't. It's real for them, and that's good enough for me.

kuwisdelu said:

For me, "powerlessness over alcohol" was just an excuse to drink as much as I wanted. It was taking the step to decide I could have power over alcohol that was difficult, because it gave me the burden and responsibility to actually do something about it.

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The idea of powerlessness, I think, can help to combat denial. I didn't always, but I now full admit I'm powerless over cocaine, oxys and heroin. And even if I might not actually be, even if I could, with some type of program, be an occasional user, that shit kicked my ass so many times, I don't even care. White flag and all. Ironically, I feel quite powerful in this regard.

benbradley said:

(not quoting, so if The Worst Happens this won't go away due to collateral damage)

I estimate that I've attended over 1,000 AA meetings and as many as 1,000 other 12-step meetings over 10 years (7 to 9 AA meetings per week for two years, then perhaps 5-7 12-step meetings per week, half AA and half other groups: Al-Anon, CoDA, OA, maybe one or two others I forget right now). <snip>

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Pffft. Rookie.

Chrissy said:

The idea of powerlessness, I think, can help to combat denial. I didn't always, but I now full admit I'm powerless over cocaine, oxys and heroin. And even if I might not actually be, even if I could, with some type of program, be an occasional user, that shit kicked my ass so many times, I don't even care. White flag and all. Ironically, I feel quite powerful in this regard.

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Certainly. The steps clearly work for some people. I just wanted to give a concrete example of how they sometimes don't work (apart from the "higher power" thing), or even hurt in some cases.

I think everyone's heard the success narratives of when they do work. But narratives of when they don't work are often characterized as "that person wasn't really ready for change / wasn't working the steps / wasn't a real alcoholic", etc., when, no, sometimes they legitimately just don't work for some people.

Well, it wasn't "the steps" that brought me to my conclusion, or meetings, or a sponsor. It was lots of time, and lots of ass kickings. Just to be clear about that.

Right.

I'm locking this until Williebee or MacAllister are available, but cut it out with the personal.

It can stay locked.